Omg Skyrim is gender biased!

[Zzimith]

Gender mixing in vanilla Skyrim is a FACT.

The Orcish females that you specifically targeted CANNOT move like seductresses, or catwalk models, unless specifically modded to do so, in the vanilla game they stomp around like every other Orc.

There are many more examples of ambiguous gender in the vanilla game, both men and women whose gender is ambiguous, they just typically go unnoticed.

​The spread of powerful women in Skyrim also far outmatches their representation in our "real" world.

Marriage is available to whichever gender you choose and no-one bats an eyelid and it's condoned by the church no less.

Now, I don't know on what planet you live, but here on earth? That is not something you're going to see in my lifetime.

As for the unenlightened attitude of the young white male, I don't see such liberal, open-minded attitudes amongst other cultural minorities. No death penalty for homosexuality in the free west for example.

All in all, your initial premise seems utterly specious and your true agenda suspect.

 

I'm fairly positive the orc female model sways the hips quite a bit. I'll get back to that once I've checked :smile: A discussion about the horrible laws against sexual minorities in parts of the world, is a long and complicated discussion regarding poverty, war, accessible education, colonialism aso etc. I don't think this is the place for that discussion, but I'm fairly sure it's a lot more complex than you make it sound :smile:

 

So how would you like the women to be depicted? More women in control? Less? Better movements? I'm scratching my head about what you specifically are looking for I the game. You acknowledge there are strong women in the game, then call it sexist. What would it take for you not to call it sexist?

That is an interesting question. A precise answer to that, I'd have to think about. But I would like the possibility to make a female character that is a f***ing brute, for instance. And a male one that is a sissy. And I would like to encounter at least few lgbt people in Skyrim, just to remind me the game isn't trying to pretend it doesn't exist. And I would like more powerful, independent women in the game. For example.

 

This is silly, being fair to genders doesn't mean that 50% of men get this and 50% of women also get this. It's just choosing not to discriminate or stereotype people in roles. Using this thread's logic, Skyrim is not only gender biased, it's also RACIST. Think about it, where are the black leaders? why is it that all the black people (Redguards) are into something violent and deadly? or have some type of problems with their families? Why is their a lack of mods for Redguards? Using your logic, Skyrim is racially biased towards white people.

I don't demand an exact 50% of everything, but more than 10% :smile: If you suggest Skyrim is racist because there isn't an exact equal amount of all races, I'm not sure I agree. Skyrim is, as someone pointed out earlier, set in something similar to ancient Scandinavia and I suppose the game's ethnic spread reflects that. And I doubt any black people feel slighted because of this. If the setting was Hammerfell, I suspect matters would be reversed. If we take the example of lgbt people they are roughly 8-10% of the population in most cultures (don't quote me on that), and I have no reason to believe they weren't in historical times. So why 0% in Skyrim? That said, it's possible Skyrim is a racist game, I haven't really analyzed that. I encourage you to dig your teeth into that juicy subject! Oh, and I just figured out how to multiquote! :D

Edited September 29, 2013 by Zzimith

[Hyacathusarullistad]

<Double post removed by author.>

Edited September 29, 2013 by Hyacathusarullistad

[Hyacathusarullistad]

As I said before, I find your conclusions to represent an incomplete analysis of the data at hand and, I think, a base misunderstanding of the true nature of gender bias in "genre" media. You're focusing only on specific instances and ignoring their context, despite your claims to the contrary. Your proposal to switch the gender of every primary and supporting character is absurd - you claim that these specific examples represent a clear gender bias despite the inordinate number of both directly contrary and otherwise opposing examples. You also seem to be taking only characters' gender into account, as opposed to how their personalities and character traits represent said genders. That's where the primary issue is in the gaming and comic book industry - not the number of female characters, but how they're represented in contrast to how male characters are represented.

 

The fact that Aela is the only female figure in the Companions' upper ranks is made trivial by the fact that of the four male leaders, one has a negligible contribution to the story (Vilkas), another is a dimwitted brute (Farkas), and a third exists solely for the purpose of being killed and has literally no unique personality traits to speak of (Skjor). The brothers exist for the radiant quest system alone, and Skjor exists solely to die. Aela and Kodlak are the two Companions who drive and contribute to the story in meaningful ways. One man and one woman.

 

I've already shared my thoughts on Ulfric Stormcloak. And Galmar is a brutish lickspittle with a talent for cracking heads and kissing asses. As for Tulius, I submit Legate Rikke as counter-balance - a strong, Nord woman who stands up for her culture when it's demeaned by her condescending, arrogant superior. One man and one woman - and in this case, a woman who clearly stands as a more likable and relatable character regardless of either of their genders.

 

Oh no, the College of Winterhold is "led" by a man. A shallow character who turns out to be a cowardly, traitorous little man who abandoned his friends to a horrible fate to save his own skin, and the only measures he took to correct his mistakes could not take place until after his death- basically, once it was someone else's problem. Compare him to Mirabelle Ervine, an intelligent and talented mage who gave her life in defense of her fellows and the people of Winterhold knowing full well that she likely wouldn't survive. One man and one woman - and again, the woman comes out on top as a better character.

 

The Thieves Guild characters are the absolute weakest examples your argument could possibly rely upon. Seriously? You think Mercer v. Karliah proves that Skyrim is biased against women? Mercer is a selfish villain unlikable from the off, and Karliah is introduced to the story by choosing to safeguard your life rather than take the single change she had at capturing the man she's devoted 20 years to capturing. Sure, Brynjolf is there too. And I'll give you him, because Bryn is honestly one of the best characters in the game, never mind the Thieves Guild. But I also posit for consideration Vex, a female character who refuses to take any crap from you (or anyone else) right from the first time you speak with her (male or female). And yes, the majority of the other Thieves in the guild are men. Placeholders. Window dressing. None of them have any meaningful dialogue or characterisation whatsoever beyond being labelled as thieves.

 

The Jarls. I can't even begin to tell you how ridiculous this argument is. There are three Jarls in all of Skyrim who have any more dialogue or personality than a common shopkeeper - Ulfric, Balgruuf, and Maven. And Maven really only has extra dialogue because of her involvement in the Thieves Guild quests. We've talked Ulfric to death. So that leaves Bulgruuf. And I may have to grant that Balgruuf is a fine character. He has a personality - real human flaws paired with a true noble desire to do what's right for his people. The remaining Jarls, Imperial/Stormcloak man/woman are all wholly and entirely irrelevant in all but the most basic of ways

 

The Greybeards are all males because they have to fit the cliche of old wise spiritualist monks who the hero must seek out in order to learn about the unique power they possess that could save the world from destruction. That's the trope. That's not Bethesda's fault, that's Tolkien's. Admittedly there was nothing stopping them from throwing in a woman Greybeard (and shortly thereafter coming up with a different name for them, clearly. :tongue:). But in my mind that's almost worse - forcing a female character into a blatantly unimportant role (the only Greybeard of any import being Arngeir) for the sake of artificial diversity? Not helpful to the cause.

 

Sure, you can go on and on with example after example. But until you start taking into account the context in which those examples appear and how those examples represent their assigned gender, you're not going to get anywhere.

 

 

 

I don't demand an exact 50% of everything, but more than 10% :smile: If you suggest Skyrim is racist because there isn't an exact equal amount of all races, I'm not sure I agree. Skyrim is, as someone pointed out earlier, set in something similar to ancient Scandinavia and I suppose the game's ethnic spread reflects that. And I doubt any black people feel slighted because of this. If the setting was Hammerfell, I suspect matters would be reversed. If we take the example of lgbt people they are roughly 8-10% of the population in most cultures (don't quote me on that), and I have no reason to believe they weren't in historical times. So why 0% in Skyrim? That said, it's possible Skyrim is a racist game, I haven't really analyzed that. I encourage you to dig your teeth into that juicy subject! Oh, and I just figured out how to multiquote! :D

 

So wait, hang on, I'm trying to get my head around the sideways logic here.

 

Skyrim's basis in Scandinavian culture is enough to validate the relatively few coloured or ethnic people present in Skyrim... but not to validate the province's supposed gender bias? So Nords can discriminate based on skin colour and ethic differences because Scandinavia did it, but not based on gender? You see, I doubt that any women feel slighted by Skyrim not only because there is no gender bias present in the game but because any that might be perceived can be explained by the fact that it's ancient Scandinavia.

 

LGBT people do no exist in Skyrim because that implies an active perception of gender and sexual differences, of which Skyrim seems to have none. To put it plainly, Skyrim has no gays or lesbians because Skyrim also has no heterosexuals. Skyrim has no clearly defined sexualities. Men can marry women or men, and women can marry women or men. Whether a socio-political statement or not, Skyrim's populace is pansexual.

[Ulfric1]

What I find ironic, is that you're both racist and sexist in your initial post. Caucasian males aren't the only culture to have poor attitudes towards diversity; almost all peoples have some problems with cultures they consider alien to themselves.

 

... ‘Nuff said really; the game industry isn’t exactly far ahead when it comes to an updated view on men and women, and repeatedly and fervently reproduces values that are (or should be) outdated in the modern world, in my opinion. Secondly, it’s primary audience is young white males, which in all honesty, aren’t the most freewheeling group when it comes to gender, race or lgbt issues. Basically, we’re on top and want to stay that way, in the rare cases we even recognize we actually are. Just look at virtually all media aimed at this group; same values, same crap.

 

So, Bethesda is bound to fail in this department, but then again, almost all media companies do, question is just how bad.

 

The first that strikes me is when I create a mothaf*#@ing badass orc warrior is that while my face looks absolutely awesomely scary, I’m only allowed to make her thin (not wiry, mind you) and despite the dark, harsch medieval context, she still moves her hips like she’s on a runway. Let’s not even mention boobs. So aside from the face, my Skyrim heroine is forcibly a dorm fantasy. In fewer words, not a body for asswhooping, but for posing; men are allowed to look strong and dangerous and women are allowed to look pretty. Now if I solely used my character to have something wobbly to rest my eyes on while criss-crossing Skyrim, fine, but that’s not what I’m looking for in games like this; I want something I can remotely believe in.

 

After I had finished all the major questlines it was quite apparent that Bethesda has made an effort when it comes to visibile offical powah. Of the 9 original jarls, 3 are female. It’s not half, but I never hoped it would be. So lets look at these powerful women: One is an old wisened crone, one is a big oaf (cool!) and one is an utter incomeptent completely at the mercy of the men surrounding her, and is repedeatly humiliated thrughout the entire civil war questline. An NPC made solely for scorn, she is by far the most helpless moron of all the jarls (if not the entire NPC crowd). Of the jarls most prominent in the civil war questline as well as the main, all are men. When it comes to other factions it varies, but men outnumbers the women by far. The greybeards, for instance, male exclusive. Presumably because the Graybeards are supposed to be one of the major authorities in the entire game, both in power and wisdom, and if women would be present, that authority would be somewhat compromised. Dragons, as far as I can make out, are all male. At least they all have male voicesets and are all refered to as a he. I guess dragons are mostly handled like animals in childrens’ books here, if they haven’t got a specific female role (like a mom, granny girlfriend or maid) they are all male by default. There are female guards, but they are few. Bandits, I think, are also predominantly male, but there are more women here than in many other factions. Both the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood have a male dominance, but also shine with strong independant female characters such as Astrid, Vex (but how exciting it would have been to have Vex make clumsy moves on whatshisname instead!) and Karliah. The dark brotherhood is the only joinable faction that can boast with an actual live female faction leader (Astrid, or the Night Mother, as you prefer). Too bad Astrid is rather shifty and destined to betray her peers. The other faction led by a female is the Thalmor, reputably evil and manipulative. Funny how the “evil” factions boast with a lot more female characters than “good” ones. The good old image of women as mysterious, weak of character and unpredictable from the 18th to early 20th century literature and psychology springs to mind. There are no named Stormcloak women, however the Legion can boast with one: Legate Rikke, and she’s not the old female stereotype, but all brawn and honor. The Companions have, I think, 3 females out of 10 total members. The Circle consists of 1 female out of 5 members. Aela is both strong, independent and warlike, but also the one (after Skjor’s demise) the only one promoting the chaotic werewolf side of the Companions. Goes well in line with what prominent women in Skyrim often represent (see above). The men of the Companions are all strong, fierce and manly. The Companions, like many other Skyrim factions, is a testosterone heaven. How cool and refreshing wouldn’t it have been with a real gay companion wielding a two handed hammer kicking everyone's’ ass? Maybe TES6! The College have 15 members according to the UESP. Of those, 5 are women, if I remember correctly (I have only done this quest line once). One of them is actually second in command and two are leading the schools of Restoration and Destruction respectively. Cool! The Arch-Wizard is, naturally, male.

 

...

 

Not a lot can be said about Hearthfire since it introduces very few NPC’s. One thing that struck me though, is how your spouse (if you choose to have one) is only doing cooking, gardening and saying stuff like “Hello dear” (I was annihilated by Janessa's total transformation from being a total badass sniper to a complete bore of a housewife. “You’re not the girl I once knew” was never more true - I so wanted a divorce mod right then!) This is more about the marriage system than Hearthfire, I know. I know you can play a female and have your partner do these things for you too, but how often is that going to happen in real game life (eh? :smile:) But it’s interesting how it’s taken for granted how, with knowledge about the game’s target consumers, this is how your spouse is expected to behave. Have you noticed also how the houses all have a man-cave in the basement, where you can put your forge and hang all your weapons? It just lacks a secret porn collection and it would be all perfect.

Alright, that's an assumption you assume the Greybeards have no female members because it compromises authority...but then many other factions have authoritative female members, you even mentioned a few in your posts. If Bethesda believed what you think they believe as a company, then why did they make authoritative female characters like Maven, Janessa, Aela, Rikke, Ulfgird(the woman you brawl with in Whiterun)?

 

Where in the Companions quests do any characters identify themselves as preferring men or women? I think you're reading something in here, because I never have them hit on me as a male or female character, and none of the companions have any serious relationships. Perhaps because of their Lycanthropy and warrior lifestyle, they avoid relationships? Maybe Bethesda wanted the player to have more options for marriage. Maybe both?

 

So what about the male jarls? Ulfric is obsessed with power, the jarl of Markarth treats strangers like crap and is corrupt as hell, Barlgruf is an elitist and can be temperamental, Sidgear is a corrupt and juvenile, the list goes on. You can see these as character flaws, stereotypes, anything you'd like to label them but females aren't the only ones to have these flaws.

 

So a woman character can't enjoy forging, hanging up their weapons, and doing these "manly" things? I am annihilated, quite frankly, by how you can go from bashing the game for having a "womanly" walk and then go on to bash the houses in Hearthfires for being too manly. Surely, a woman couldn't want all of these "manly" things in the basement. And then you go on to associate porn with strictly males? Guess what? Thats sexism! :P

 

Men have the exact same dialogue once you're married too...they sit around and bake all day, and have the same welcome home honey schtick. It bothers me, but I don't call it sexism because its the same for both genders. Another thing to note: all actors of a given voicetype use the same cookie cutter dialogue for marriage.

 

And...um I don't know what game you play, but none of my spouses garden, they do mine but no gardening.

[elatio]

I'll address a small part of this rant.

 

The modding community exists almost solely to serve itself. If someone mods something into a game it's usually (and in fact almost exclusively) a thing that author wanted in their own game first and foremost. Sites like this one are made so that people can share these mods, but in the end a mod is usually created because the author wanted it for themselves. Bearing that in mind, they are under no obligation to ensure that their work conforms with anyone elses personal ethics or opinions. Barring obvious and inexcusable hate mongering (which is bannable) whatever a person decides to put in a mod they make is up to them, and them alone. The Nexus staff (in spite of the other things they're not so good at) protect this freedom of expression quite adamantly.

 

Something might offend you, but that doesn't mean it has no right to exist, or that nobody else can appreciate it. It doesn't matter whether it's a completely unrealistic representation of beauty or a peculiarly well sculpted 3d model of a horses anus. If you want diversity and tolerance you'd better practice what you preach.

[FishBiter]

Not everything has to be about empowering the women's movement. That one female Jarl who's an idiot? Guess what, some women are incompetent morons, just like some men are incompetent morons. That's gender equality right there.

 

Sometimes, when crafting a story, it's more important to worry about making a good story than it is to make sure you're not offending people. In fact, worrying about who you're going to offend and changing your story every time this worry hits you is a great way to completely ruin a story. Would Skyrim really have been better if for some reason they made all the women stronger, smarter, and better than all the men, and made sure that every traditionally male profession in the game had at least a 50% female participation rate? No, and that should never be a goal for any artist. Some stories are about the concept of "women are better than men"; however, a story like Skyrim treats women as equals by letting them enter the story in a natural way. There are some strong women in Skyrim, there are some weak women in Skyrim; is there more of one than the other? Perhaps. Does that have a negative impact on the story? No.

 

 

 

TL;DR- you don't ruin a good story because you're worried you'll offend someone.

 

 

 

 

 

Armor: I agree that in one spot they goofed, and that's armor. Boob plate armor is unrealistic and has no purpose other than to announce the gender of the wearer, which has no purpose in the context of armor made for battle. GOOD NEWS! It's been taken care of by the CNHF body and armor replacer. Go ahead and do a search for it.

[MidevalGuy]

I apologize if this is considered flaming by the Mods, but...

 

I can't believe people are still feeding the OP's ego by responding to this thread. It now has 45 responses and five pages of masturbatory garbage!

 

This thread is basically one big Troll thread, IMHO.

 

The OP makes some hypocritical and flat out wrong assertions about Skyrim and Bethesda, and then has the gall to shout down (using all caps) anybody who disagrees with them like some petulant 12-year old

 

This thread reeks of narcissistic and naive conclusions made by somebody not very experienced in the world. It even reads like a piss-poor college essay where the author desperately wants to change the world, but doesn't know how to do it, or even what is wrong with the world in the first place.

 

Everybody is free to participate if they want, but the more you keep trying to disprove the OP, the more they are going to ignore it and continue to try and push their agenda because that's what they want: They love the conflict, but don't know how to effectively argue any coherent point enough where it has any real persuasive value in the face of opposing facts versus their own skewed opinion.

[Zaldir]

And with that, this thread has run its course.

 

Some healthy discussions were had, some not-so healthy 'discussions' took place. Everyone who wanted to chime in has had their chance, and both points of views have brought their arguments forth. But at this point, this thread serves no other purpose than to toss a flaming ball back and forth between the OP and the disagreeing party. And flying, flaming balls tend to hurt, and we'd like to avoid that.

 

Thanks to everyone participating in the discussion for keeping things civil for so long. ;)