56 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

 

Once more I concur with the thrust of your argument. But do you not feel that 'Empires represent some of the worst human attributes that have been amplified or DE-constrained, because they are systematized. The forming of a system somehow bypasses normal human checks like 'conscience' and normalizes what would be otherwise unacceptable - or at least questionable in non-empire conditions?

 

Pardon me I'm struggling to express my self here. Earlier you said the empire model's main problem is its power imbalance. I suggest this is only partly correct and call the writer Terry Pratchett to the stand

 

"There is only one sin, said Granny Weatherwax, an that's treating people as things" - Thank you Mr Pratchett.

 

Anyone disagree with that?  Can you fault the ethical position of that statement Lachdonin? Because I propose that is exactly what empires do, it's what empires are for! An essential defining characteristic, without which an empire would not be an empire but some other form of collective.

 

In many ways, one can say that Democracy represents some of the worst human attributes by creating an unwarranted value of self-driven opinion, infighting and a lack of efficiency'. My old PO in the Naval Reserves used to say "Every system of leadership is perfect until you throw people into the mix".

 

As for the Pratchett quote... I do fault the ethical position, because it places an undeserved emphasis on human value. The wider consideration must be taken into account, and when we remove ourselves from the equation out of an objection to being relegated to numbers on a spreadsheet (using a very loose analogy here) we open the doors for wholesale ethical abuse. We see this in resource exploitation and consumption, animal abuse, power and land consumption etc. We HAVE to view people as things otherwise we lose focus, and the 'human equation' corrupts the core of the system. 

 

Empires have a major administrative advantage because of their inherent regulatory nature across strata (both cultural and social) but like most things they break down when you involve people. An 'emperor' doesn't want to view HIMSELF as a thing, but is willing to view others as things. The same type of degradation happens in democratic states, with individuals not willing to sacrifice but demanding it of others. 

 

The problem, i posit (and did in said Honours Thesis) is not the inherent qualities of these structures. The Septim Empire is a good example of how Empires are SUPPOSED to work, fostering trade, emigration and cooperation (mostly) between widely different cultures to the prosperity of everyone. However, it is human pride which breaks down the framework, not some inherent instability within the structure its self. 

 

Essentially, people suck. And it's no different on Tamriel. 

[SayinNuthin]

"Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­racy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

- Win­ston Churchill (House of Com­mons, 11 Novem­ber 1947) paraphrasing William F Buckley

 

Which sums it up for me, as crap as it is, it's the best we've made (sort of) work. Your "The wider consideration must be taken into account" is setting off all sorts of personal alarm bells for me.

 

 

So would I be correct in summing up our difference thus; your perspective is that structures such as empires 'have the potential to be' beneficial, save humans from their worse behaviour or somehow limit our excesses. While I feel that the same structures inevitably amplify our faults?

 

People suck you say? That's too bleak, for me;

What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world. The paragon of animals.

 

Sure, in many respects 'man delights me not'. But that "The 'human equation' corrupts the core of the system" is merely proof (for me) the system(s) isn't equal to the requirements of our situation therefore 'we' are demonstrably not equal to creating a system that is. So perhaps we should get behind the Greybeards here and put some effort into improving ourselves, within. And relegate management systems like empires to the status of sewerage (I.e. something nasty that needs doing) and avoid like a plague, anything that glorifies it as we would anything else that has a nasty smell!

 

Perhaps you could help me with a quotation. Confucian I think. A man is given a position of responsibility over a province by the emperor. Seeking to justly rule his province he turns first to his home district. Seeking to rule his home district the looks to his own village. Seeking to rule his village he addresses his household and in his household himself. Only when he understands his own heart can he hope to rule the province well. Or something like that, I read it a long time ago and have not been able to find the scripture it was based on. But you see where I'm going with that?

 

Imperialism fails for the same reasons as all the other systems. Not because people suck, they're just distracted by problems and looking in the wrong places for solutions.

[BrettM]

Ulfric may not be racist (at least not overly) but he is certainly too caught up in his emotions to be anything but an arrogant jerk to anyone who disagrees with him. I got THAT impression real clear when I helped broker the cease-fire (pardon, truce) so that I could get on with the job of capturing a dragon and, you know, prevent everyone from eventually getting eaten by Alduin and his proteges.

Ultimately, every single person involved in the main quest ends up placing his/her own agenda above the problem of Alduin. Every one -- jarl, Blade, or Greybeard -- eventually indicates a willingness to let Alduin eat the world if the Dovahkiin does not serve their ends. Neither Tullius nor Ulfric are willing to put aside their Civil War agendas to see Alduin stopped. Balgruuf will not aid if it will disadvantage him in his dealings with the Imperials and Stormcloaks, which is why the peace conference is necessary in the first place. Delphine and Esbern will refuse further aid unless Paarthurnax is killed first. Master Arngeir will initially refuse to talk about Dragonrend or allow a meeting with Paarthurnax because he's ticked off about the Dovahkiin speaking with the Blades. All of them would rather see the world end than give an inch on their own desires, which is rather mind boggling.

[WickedRequiem]

I'm not sure if it's fair to say that the Imperials are "racist' at this time (4th Age).

Imperialism (in our own world) largely consisted of the assumption of cultural superiority over others.  This manifested in various ways.  European colonists enslaved and killed aboriginals (yes, even the "benevolent" British Empire.  Not so benevolent to the colored people).  Soviet Union and the American empire used gunboat diplomacy to gain economic benefits around the world.  China is currently in the process of trying to enlargen their sphere via military incursions.  And these were/are largely justified by "we're superior to others".

 

By the 4th Age in Skyrim, the Empire is essentially broken.  The Empire is gone.  They've lost their cultural identity. They've lost the ancient Imperial bloodline, they've denied the divinity of their founder (which formed one of the core belief of the Empire), they're allowing agents of foreign government to enforce religious restrictions against one of their most ancient heritage, they've lost the common bonds of unity between different provinces, etc etc.  Imperials really have nothing left to say "we're Imperials!" other than name tags on their uniform.

 

Also, I'm not sure if it's fair to say Ulfric is "racist" anymore than an average governemnt leader of a developed world (in our world).  When there is a large influx of a refugee population (which tends to be poor, relatively uneducated, and without common root / customs), they tend to become beds for crime and social problems, not to mention the economic strain of having to deal with caring for the refugees.  That's an headache for any government official.  Now, his followers are certainly racist.  But Ulfric himself?  I'm not sure just how much of his "racism" arises from administrative needs (and the needs to gain the loyalty of his followers) and how much from his actual belief.

Edited by WickedRequiem, 13 February 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[Yagamoth]

I'm not sure if it's fair to say that the Imperials are "racist' at this time (4th Age).

Imperialism (in our own world) largely consisted of the assumption of cultural superiority over others.  This manifested in various ways.  European colonists enslaved and killed aboriginals (yes, even the "benevolent" British Empire.  Not so benevolent to the colored people).  Soviet Union and the American empire used gunboat diplomacy to gain economic benefits around the world.  China is currently in the process of trying to enlargen their sphere via military incursions.  And these were/are largely justified by "we're superior to others".

 

By the 4th Age in Skyrim, the Empire is essentially broken.  The Empire is gone.  They've lost their cultural identity. They've lost the ancient Imperial bloodline, they've denied the divinity of their founder (which formed one of the core belief of the Empire), they're allowing agents of foreign government to enforce religious restrictions against one of their most ancient heritage, they've lost the common bonds of unity between different provinces, etc etc.  Imperials really have nothing left to say "we're Imperials!" other than name tags on their uniform.

 

Also, I'm not sure if it's fair to say Ulfric is "racist" anymore than an average governemnt leader of a developed world (in our world).  When there is a large influx of a refugee population (which tends to be poor, relatively uneducated, and without common root / customs), they tend to become beds for crime and social problems, not to mention the economic strain of having to deal with caring for the refugees.  That's an headache for any government official.  Now, his followers are certainly racist.  But Ulfric himself?  I'm not sure just how much of his "racism" arises from administrative needs (and the needs to gain the loyalty of his followers) and how much from his actual belief.

 

I strongly agree with what you say here.  Personally I believe that people claiming Ulfric is racist tend to do so from a Utopian framework in justifying their position.  I believe that people look at the situation in Windhelm without first considering the established lore in the TES universe, and the realities of running a city.  Additionally I would argue that administrative need is the driving force behind Ulfric's racism.

 

On the issue of lore you have two races (Argonian and Dunmer) who have a long and bloody history of hating each other.  But yes let us throw two groups who absolutely cannot stand each other together, put them in close quarters, and expect them to hug each other and sing kumbayah.  What would actually happen if you had Dunmer and Argonians living in that kind of proximity, according to established lore, is a miniature war on the streets of Windhelm. The two races hate each other stemming from the Dunmer enslaving Argonians in the past.  The Argonians on the other hand attacked Morrowind the first chance they got.  So I personally don't see having the Argonians live outside the walls as racism so much as an unfortunate necessity.  

 

Now as far as the Grey Quarter itself you simply have to apply physics to understand that situation.  Assume for a moment that Windhelm is a bare bones scale model of what it would look like if it existed in reality.  Where was the Jarl supposed to put a large number of refugee's?  Windhelm does not exactly have anywhere it can expand to even if the Jarl had the money to expand the city.  It is basically surrounded on three sides by a river with the fourth facing a mountain.  So effectively you have a choice between somehow blowing up a mountain (again remember this universe does not have things like dynamite or bulldozers) and somehow coming up with the funds to cover the astronomical cost, or just sticking refugee's in the Grey Quarter.  

 

Now I will grant that Ulfric is tolerant of racism due to the need of keeping his people behind him.  Many Nord's in Windhelm are extremely racist and Ulfric does allow it without comment.  The most I can say to that is that in many ways the first conversation you hear upon entering Windhelm is true to life in more ways than one.  While I do not agree with the Nords accosting the Dunmer woman I believe that situation would easily play out in real life.  You effectively have a group of refugee's who live in, and seem inclined to stay, in a city that accepted them when they were feeling a tragedy in their homeland.  That same group of people claim the struggle of their new homes people is not their problem?  I may not agree with the Nords but I can certainly understand their position.  

 

Beyond that I believe that many people do not consider the fact that Ulfric, for better or worse, is not only fighting for Skyrim's  religious freedom but their cultural identity as well.  The Empire is effectively trying to stop not only the worship of Talos but eliminate Nordic traditions as well. This is highlighted by the execution scene when you first arrive in Solitude.  Single combat is an ancient tradition of the Nord's and yet a man is being executed for following those traditions.  Irrespective of anything else by Nordic custom and law Torygg accepted a duel with Ulfric and lost.  In Nordic culture that is not murder despite what the Empire is trying to claim.  Now where I am going with this that in any modern society if a foreign power came in and basically said you no longer have a right to practice your religion or culture they would fight.  In those situations the point of view can arise that if you are not with us then you are against us.  Where I am going with this is that perhaps what is interpreted as racism is simply perceiving a threat where their is none.

[Lachdonin]

 

Beyond that I believe that many people do not consider the fact that Ulfric, for better or worse, is not only fighting for Skyrim's  religious freedom but their cultural identity as well.  The Empire is effectively trying to stop not only the worship of Talos but eliminate Nordic traditions as well. This is highlighted by the execution scene when you first arrive in Solitude.  Single combat is an ancient tradition of the Nord's and yet a man is being executed for following those traditions.  Irrespective of anything else by Nordic custom and law Torygg accepted a duel with Ulfric and lost.  In Nordic culture that is not murder despite what the Empire is trying to claim.  Now where I am going with this that in any modern society if a foreign power came in and basically said you no longer have a right to practice your religion or culture they would fight.  In those situations the point of view can arise that if you are not with us then you are against us.  Where I am going with this is that perhaps what is interpreted as racism is simply perceiving a threat where their is none.

 

 

That's not entirely true. There is no indication that the Empire has been stamping down on anything BUT Talos worship. As far as the duel in question, Nordic Jarls have gone to war over the results of supposedly binding and honourable duels, to it's hardly a strictly enforced tradition. What's more, Ulfric did MORE than just kill Torygg, he also declared independence from the Empire. 

 

It should also be noted that there is absolutely 0 evidence to support the argument that the Empire is enforcing the Talos ban. They let the Thalmor in to do it (as required by the treaty) but you never actually see anything to indicate that the Empire is arresting Talos worshipers. To compound matters, Ulfric is identified as a Thalmor asset, and is in fact the REASON the Thalmor are there enforcing the ban. Had he not gotten uppity about it, no one would have asked questions and the people of Skyrim would have kept on worshiping Talos while the Empire turned a blind eye. 

 

None of this, of course, paints Ulfric as particularly racist, simply desiring power. 

[Yagamoth]

 

 

Beyond that I believe that many people do not consider the fact that Ulfric, for better or worse, is not only fighting for Skyrim's  religious freedom but their cultural identity as well.  The Empire is effectively trying to stop not only the worship of Talos but eliminate Nordic traditions as well. This is highlighted by the execution scene when you first arrive in Solitude.  Single combat is an ancient tradition of the Nord's and yet a man is being executed for following those traditions.  Irrespective of anything else by Nordic custom and law Torygg accepted a duel with Ulfric and lost.  In Nordic culture that is not murder despite what the Empire is trying to claim.  Now where I am going with this that in any modern society if a foreign power came in and basically said you no longer have a right to practice your religion or culture they would fight.  In those situations the point of view can arise that if you are not with us then you are against us.  Where I am going with this is that perhaps what is interpreted as racism is simply perceiving a threat where their is none.

 

 

That's not entirely true. There is no indication that the Empire has been stamping down on anything BUT Talos worship. As far as the duel in question, Nordic Jarls have gone to war over the results of supposedly binding and honourable duels, to it's hardly a strictly enforced tradition. What's more, Ulfric did MORE than just kill Torygg, he also declared independence from the Empire. 

 

It should also be noted that there is absolutely 0 evidence to support the argument that the Empire is enforcing the Talos ban. They let the Thalmor in to do it (as required by the treaty) but you never actually see anything to indicate that the Empire is arresting Talos worshipers. To compound matters, Ulfric is identified as a Thalmor asset, and is in fact the REASON the Thalmor are there enforcing the ban. Had he not gotten uppity about it, no one would have asked questions and the people of Skyrim would have kept on worshiping Talos while the Empire turned a blind eye. 

 

None of this, of course, paints Ulfric as particularly racist, simply desiring power. 

 

 

I will grant that the duel is not always strictly honored however is it not significant that it was the imperial legion, rather than the solitude city guard, who were presiding over the execution.  My point was that even at the execution they specifically said that he had let the murderer of High King Torygg escape.  The key would I see there is murderer as that would be an Imperial classification.  As for other examples play through the Imperial Legion quest line and listen to the comments Tullius makes whenever any Nordic tradition is brought up.  That being said I did not intend to claim that the Empire itself was enforcing the ban, however they are the ones allowing the Thalmor into Skyrim to enforce it.  Granted it is part of the treaty however, so what?  The point the Stormcloaks make is that they would rather be independent than serve an Empire that allows them to be arrested for worshiping their God.  

 

I would relate the point about Ulfric getting uppity to the early history of Christian persecution.  Perhaps if they simply did not publicly admit to their beliefs and practiced them in private there would not be so many Saints in the Catholic church.  However remember at the same time that the belief in any divine being is a belief in something that is objectively higher than oneself or the mortal world.  The Christian martyrs died because they believed in something beyond themself and refused to renounce their belief.  When speaking about a culture that was created upon a high sense of honor, insofar as honor is more important than ones life, I do not find it surprising that many wish to rebel.  What I notice in the game is that cities that remain steeped in Nordic culture are pro Stormcloak, whereas cities that have a heavy Imperial culture influence are pro Empire.  The Nordic sense of honor, which is part of their culture and has been cast down by the Empire, is a heavy part of what they are fighting to protect.  The best example I can think of is if you have ever played KOTOR2 what Treya says to Mandalore, "Even at a time when there are no more Mandalorians, your honor will remain."

 

As for the Dossier on Ulfric I find several parts of it very interesting.  First when speaking of him as an asset they specifically mention the Markarth incident when leads me to believe that they are using the term asset loosely as someone who was manipulated into doing their bidding.  Perhaps starting the war was what the Dominion wanted, but that does not necessarily make Ulfric's position wrong.

[Kraeten]

Yes Ulfric desires power. He wants to be High King after all. Was Torygg similarly ambitious? Not likely. As for the Empire, there is very little that needs to be said. The great war ended TWENTY SIX years ago, and yet the Empire shows absolutely no interest in breaking their so called "peace" with the Aldmeri Dominion. Indeed they seem frightened at the mere prospect of a renewed conflict. And this is the force that imperial loyalists are hoping will defeat the Dominion? Ridiculous.

 

As for the Dossier, people really need to stop bringing it up. It specifically states Ulfric is uncooperative, and that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. Maybe something happened between them during the Markarth Incident. MAYBE. Whatever happened there's do doubting Ulfric's present ambition of driving the dominion out of skyrim. Thalmor Justiciar Ondolemar himself is executed by the Stormcloaks when they take Markarth.

Edited by Kraeten, 17 February 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[Lachdonin]

Early Christian history has been highly propagandized. Most of the 'prosecution' was just that. They were CRIMINALS. Not for their beliefs (the Romans were rather big on religious freedoms) but for doing unsightly things like burning down temples and murdering priests. There were innocents caught in the middle, of course, but it's not as one sided "Romanz R Bad!" as western hist=yr books tend to portray.

 

I also don't think that the Nords 'honour' really plays into it. Or, in fact, that they have any. Their so called 'honour' is entirely self serving and doesn't apply to any non-Nord, and even then they seem to selectively ignore it. They even suppressed their OWN pantheon once before, under the Alessians, and then suppressed the Cyrodiilic pantheon a few centuries later. If anything, religious repression IS part of the Nordic culture. 

 

As for the execution... I don't think the Execution was at all planned. When you consider that Ulfric had very recently been captured near Darkwater Crossing, and the Thalmor position on the war (as disclosed int heir secret documents) i think it was an impromptu decision because Tullius discovered the Thalmor had learned about the capture. We all know the Dominion wanted the war to go on as long as possible, and had they taken custody of the 'Talos Worshiping' Ulfric, he would have almost certainly 'escaped'. Likely, based on where he was heading (down towards the Cyrodiil border, not towards Solitude) Tullius intended to take Ulfric to the Imperial City to stand trial for treason and inciting a rebellion in an Imperial province. The summary execution is clearly an attempt to prevent having to turn Ulfric over to the Thalmor.

 

 As for the Empire, there is very little that needs to be said. The great war ended TWENTY SIX years ago, and yet the Empire shows absolutely no interest in breaking their so called "peace" with the Aldmeri Dominion. Indeed they seem frightened at the mere prospect of a renewed conflict. And this is the force that imperial loyalists are hoping will defeat the Dominion? Ridiculous.

 

As for this... This is just flat out wrong. We're told by several different sources that the Empire is preparing for a war on THEIR terms, not that they're trying to avoid it. Even the Thalmor note the Empires militarization. Also remember that we're talking a fuedal-era society. They don't have the rapid re-population and infrastructure of industrial era powers. 23 years isn't that long to recover from a war that left hundreds of thousands dead.

[Kraeten]

As for this... This is just flat out wrong. We're told by several different sources that the Empire is preparing for a war on THEIR terms, not that they're trying to avoid it. Even the Thalmor note the Empires militarization. Also remember that we're talking a fuedal-era society. They don't have the rapid re-population and infrastructure of industrial era powers. 23 years isn't that long to recover from a war that left hundreds of thousands dead.

 

General Tullius himself attends a Thalmor party, as a demonstration that the Dominion can tell the Empire what to do. He fears not attending a party will jeopardize the peace. This isn't a Empire preparing for war, this is a scalded dog. Additionally, 26 years is enough time for a new generation to be born and grow into adulthood. The humans will have an easier time repopulating compared to the elves too.

Edited by Kraeten, 17 February 2014 - 12:37 AM.