86 replies to this topic

[ElHefeSupremo]

First, my apologies for not contributing to this thread until now - BUT I have been giving the topic some extended and serious thought
Second, this has made for great reading with innovative ideas - there has been solid progress and positive collaboration
Third, pardon the length of this post - which will be the first of two more ... hopefully the following will stimulate some interesting discussion

In this post, I wanted to dig deep into the story value of the name of the mod "The Daughters of ARES" (the other two will deal with real-world science and in-game dynamics)
That said, first consider the significance of ARES and try to bear with me on the mythology lecture ...

Ares was one of the Dodekatheon (the Twelve Olympians) – son of Zeus and Hera – and the Greek god of war who epitomized the chaotic energy of the masculine principle … fierce and hot-headed, given to unrestrained outbursts of raw emotion – both physical brutality unbridled sexuality (although not as notoriously prolific as his philandering father)
While Ares embodied the purity of valor on the battlefield, this was overshadowed by his insatiable war-lust, indiscriminant bloodshed and manslaughter. Even his own father told him “you, amongst all the gods, is most hateful to me”
In contrast, Athena stood for principled intelligence, measured leadership and controlled military strategy and generalship (remember, Ares sided with Troy while Athena sided with the Greeks). It is because of his impetuousness that Ares is often the butt of ridicule
Ares would be accompanied into battle by Kydoimos, the demon of the din of battle, the "Hysminai" ("Acts of manslaughter") and Alala, the goddess or personification of the Greek war-cry and whose name is used by Ares as his own war-cry

So, what do we have so far?
1. An interesting dialectic between "Ares" - a warchild/wildchild - and the demur, pacified and totally obedient "sex doll" of Project ARES
This clash of opposites can be used to underscore the dilemma of being a "self purposed automaton" ... how does a "robot" become an "entity"? how does "the creation" establish separate identity from it's creator? This could be tied into Shelly's Frankenstein ... how does the "monster" become an "ethical creature" distinct from it's "ambitious creator"? In terms of the Fallout Universe, House is Frankenstien and you (as a daughter of ARES) is the monster
2. A list of "authentic" names for different in-game Perks and Items/Weapons/Armor
Example: an electrified sword - rather like ShogoBrother's Tesla blade named "Kydoimos" or weaponize the ARES body itself (ala Allita BattleAngel) with a "plasma palm" and call it the "Kydoimos Effect"

Now Ares had over 40 consorts – the most “famous” of which was Aphrodite who bore him twin sons - Phobos (fear) and Deimos (terror) who would pull his chariot into battle; however, Aphrodite also bore Ares a daughter - Harmonia - goddess of concord and the ill-fated Thebian bride who received a cursed necklace as a wedding present
Alcippe, the daughter of Ares and Aglaulus - became the flashpoint of the first criminal trial held in recorded history. Who was on trial? Why none other than Ares imself. What was Ares on trial for? Why for a "family honor" revenge killing. Who did Ares murder? A little known demigod - Halirrhotius - but who happened to be the son of Poseidon. Why did Ares kill Halirrhotius? Because the punk raped (or attempted to) Alcippe. Where was the trial held? Why on near the Acropolis of Athens on a hill named Areopagus. The verdict? Unanimous acquital.

So what do we have now?
1. A potential theme of “sins of the father” that follow you in life and you may choose to “overcome your destiny” or not
2. In family warfare - just like between the House brothers in FONV
3. What is justice? Does it exist in the real world. Does it exist at all?

Now to the other part of the mod name - that is, "daughter"
This poses yet more interesting dielectics ...
1. What is the significance of having "daughters" - rather than "sons" being "warriors"?
2. Does "deadiliest of the species" have any play?
3. What does "gender" mean to an automaton that has no reproductive capability (or do they?)

To sum up: the name of the mod is very catchy and it has a rich history in other literature - use the name to as full effect as possible by encorporating it into many aspects of the mod

Edited by ElHefeSupremo, 06 January 2014 - 11:05 PM.

[denver25]

dont no weather you read or liked the post about the race quest that i was making a story to, if you think the quest could work i would be happy to add extra to the story make up to incorparate this into it. I.e add something that can add further quests under Sin Of The Father, plus other if it can be worked on.

 

If you dont like the story then i will simply delete my hard copy and think of something else

[jediakyrol]

In response to post #11035412.

That's good! I can vaguely see a series of messages between House and an unnamed General about the military appropriation and conversion of the Advanced Robotic Entertainment Systems (yet another one of House's sub-companies) "Companion Android" as part of the war effort...House arguing that while yes, they are machines, that the Mr. Handy units one of his other subsidiaries made in a joint effort with General Atomics were far more suited for combat due to being easy to maintain and repair. (House keeps the Securitrons a secret until after the war...they were always his Ace in the hole). The General, however argues that a human-shaped bot could go anywhere and use any weapon/vehicle a human can. They go back and forth (possibly skipping many of these for the sake of the player's sanity) until the General has the government forcibly acquire the factory making the Androids, the workers, and all unshipped models.

This is where the reference to Alcippe could come in. The General's name could be revealed as H. Hotius, and that he has strong ties to the Poseidon Energy Corporation (a front for the pre-war Enclave), who has been put in charge of the facility. The "rape" would be the forced rewriting of the androids AIs from companion to soldier (Andrea for example would have already have been initialized and may have been ready to ship, but then they just jammed the military code in there which led to all of her personality glitches...it's assumed at least one whole production batch suffered this.) House then uses his connections to have General Hotius "taken care of" and attempts to reclaim his factory. This is where Poseidon Energy and House enter a legal battle...Culminating in House getting his facility back, only for it to be destroyed by the Chinese later. A few of the researchers did survive though, along with some of their work. Some went to MIT (their work later being used to make the robot slaves), some were "recruited" by Poseidon (developing cybernetics and Advanced man-machine interfaces like Frank Horrigan's life-support armour), and maybe a few even stole away into the night, and worked on an advanced prototype they thought should be the successor of humanity (another possible questline maybe?)

There could also be another ARES unit wandering around the wastes looking for her "family", two male ARES units who went berserk after they were drafted, so she can attempt to restore balance to their programming and help them learn to live peacefully amongst the other races...her name: Harmony, the two mad units: their original names have been lost, but they are called Phobos & Deimos by Caesar's Legion.
(This of course would be a questline you enter through multiple points...the Legion asks you to destroy them, and Harmony asks you to disable them so she can "calm their code"...possibly giving you a weapon like the Mesmetron, except it only works on robots.)

On the "Sins of the Father"...we talked about earlier that House's probable original intention for the ARES line was part of his life-extension research. The ultimate goal for the ARES units...is to simply be a life-support device for a bitter old man. (who in-lore undermined and bought out his own brother's company out of petty jealousy...and probably had that brother "taken care of" as well.) Do you wish to help him finish his own personal android body...even if it is possibly you? Or will you resist your creator and try to make your own place in the world?

...guess I made a wall of text too...sorry...

[jediakyrol]

In response to post #10419629.

I believe this is already close to what lucasjose is planning for the base "upgrades" (not the secret ones...which he said there will be a lot of)

Problem I see is the inclusion of Doc Pinkerton...He was born in DC in 2217, joined the remnants of the Naval Research Institute as a teen, and in 2237 and cleared out the Ship that later became Rivet City, where he stayed up through 2277. Around that time, the Courier was delivering an unlucky package to the Divide, and sometime between then and 2281 they were hired by Mr. House to deliver the Platinum Chip.

[ElHefeSupremo]

In response to post #11035412. #11052773 is also a reply to the same post.

@ jediakyrot ... I like the ideas - you have immediately picked up on what I was trying to get at

Here are a few embellishments:
1. Really develop the "multipurposed" nature of these MACHINES ... a machine can have a focused, single purpose (like tweezers for grasping fine objects) or have many - even conflicting - purposes (like a Swiss Army knife), with intentionally and UNintentional inherent inconsistencies

Examples:

1a. Following Wauthan's initial post (very solid writing by the way) that following Robco's acquisition of Repconn, there was a need to conserve R&D money but moreover TIME (Robert House KNOWS nuclear war is inevitable and eminent) to develop "robotic astronauts" as part of his grand "offworld migration" masterplan.
BUT, ARES itself was a Robco acquisition - the original company was begun by some to be named pornmaster/sex industrialist (maybe a homage to Hugh Hefner - better Fallout themed homage than Larry Flynt or Bob Guccione) who was immensely wealthy himself (maybe herself!?) and was subcontracting with both Vault Tec and the USSA military to provide sex machines both as some type of perverse "human social engineering" experiment cooked up by those nutcases in Vault Tec's think tank as well as "comfort companions" for lonely and deserving top military brass (rather like cabin boys of Her Majesty's Victorian Royal Navy - again some fun history to draw upon for the story line).
Now this "Hefner" archetype is of course not a scientific genius - BUT another character - rather like a Steve Jobs of the prewar Fallout universe, is. And it is the unlikely collaboration of "Hefner" (need a pseudonym of course) and "Jobs" (maybe pseudonym could be a pun - like Work or Trabajo) that ARES is born. It goes without saying that House's acquisition of ARES was a "hostile" take over. Now here is where things can get interesting ...
Robert House - while once was a flamboyant egotistic womanizer - had become an emasculated asexual emotionless "machine" in the years leading up to the war because he had become TOTALLY obsessed with "saving the human race". In short, he thinks of himself as some kind of postapocalyptic Noah/Jesus/Abraham - taking on a self delusional image of being something superior to common folk - an ascendant, enlightened being that cannot be encumbered with pointless animalistic trivialities like sex.

THEREFORE, House just can't stand the fact that the ARES series - in some respects even more technologically advanced than his own work (a fact that just sticks in his throat like a chicken bone) - is dedicated to something so banal as sex ...
The tension between House (a Bill Gates figure!?) and Hefner/Jobs is so bad that the whole project nearly blows up in their faces.
House is - if ANYTHING - a die hard pragmatist. "Jobs" is the exact opposite - a dreamer, an idealist, a purist. BUT, it is through their bitter and ugly differences that together they succeed in making something transcendent - the SELF PURPOSING AUTOMATON.
The AI is a break through in technology of their time. The carapace - the humanoid hull - a work of high renaissance art. Even House has to admit that he would have never built such a thing by his efforts alone - House's first and ONLY admission of his own limitations. Now this fact startles House to his very core and leads to ...

1b. House begins to make plans to have his consciousness and memories programmed into an ARES model.
This is like what Robert H. Heinlein wrote about in his "Fear No Evil" where a aging megawealthy mogul nearly dies in an assassination attempt only to have his brain implanted in his young and ravishingly beautiful secretaries' body and now has to adjust being in a woman's body but also must live with her "consciousness" and gradually takes on a woman's character.
By the way, this novel was probably the first serious examination of "transgender" in modern literature (much less Sci-Fi).

The fact that House - who had become asexual - would consider changing gender, could have some real interesting side story possibilities. For good measure, slip in a few insider jokes - say House balks at downloading himself into the OS "Jobs" team wrote

2. Explore the twisted politics of the corporate entities in greater detail.
I really like your idea of Poseidon's link to the Enclave as an example of the corporate-government complex which fits perfectly into the cold war era ethos of Fallout

Your ideas about "rape" are really imaginative ... I will have to digest them before I can adequately remark but you took it in an unexpected but VERY interesting direction as it asks the question:

Does a nonorganic have (human) "rights"?

This point is raised in FO3 with Harkness and the Underground Railroad and will doubtless be a cornerstone for FO4 (assuming it's centered upon the Commonwealth)

Edited by ElHefeSupremo, 07 January 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[ElHefeSupremo]

@ lucasjose501 ... just a few quick questions
What is the status of and what can you share about the "Sons of ARES"?

Quick suggestion: keep the number of NPC "sons" to a tight minimum - that emphasizes their uniqueness

Second quick suggestion: IF you have ANY NPC "sons" have them be totally rogue - that capitalizes on the Greek mythos and offers an interesting plotline choice of "puttin' em down" or "rehabilitating" them (say make a high Charisma/Science/Repair requirement
This brings into the plotline whether "nonorganic" entities are deserving/entitled/need "salvation" - just like humans

Edited by ElHefeSupremo, 08 January 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[jediakyrol]

In response to post #11035412. #11052773, #11054728 are all replies on the same post.

yeah, I was trying to get across that to the other AI's, force-rewriting their code would be abhorrent...but House himself would probably just see it as someone tampering with his property.
That would also be something in Harmony's quest...either asking her why she feels what she's doing is right if it is so horrible(with a high Int score or having previously heard about it), or offering to do it yourself (with the Robotics Expert perk) and having her horrified...explaining how she wasn't going to directly rewrite them, but help them by hooking them to herself and procedurally running through each of their codes to repair conflicts. They may in the end still turn out to be "evil" but they will no longer be "broken".

Wish I was a better writer, so I could take everything lucasjose gave a thumbs up and put it together into a big story arc. (We already have enough stuff in here to compete with the main quest for length if done right.)

Edited by jediakyrol, 08 January 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[ElHefeSupremo]

This post will be unlike the others ... short and deal with "real world" science
I am a firm believer that the BEST science fiction is really fictionalized science
By that I mean the science in a story - and make no mistake, Daughters of ARES is high science fiction - must be COMPLETELY compatible with current knowledge
For some this requirement may seem either esoteric or irrelevant - to which the retort would be "try fantasy - at least there you can make MAGIC what ever your imagination desires"

Enough preaching - now to pitch the idea

Points:
1. All the comments in this forum so far have assumed that a conventional computer - that is a classical electronic binary device - would suffice as the "brain" of the ARES units
2. That assumption is untenable - too big, too slow and too hot
3. Alternative - a quantum computer as the AI brain
4. Quantum computers were first proposed in 1982 by the Nobel laureate and renown physicist, Richard Feynman, who besides being a genius that worked on the Manhattan Project (an automatic homage to the era that Fallout was based upon) also had a great sense of sardonic comedy and was a fantastic bongo drum player
5. In quantum computing, the "quantum state" of a single electron is used as an informational bit - the "Q bit" (or qubit) - rather than a relatively HUGE number of "holes" in semiconductors for conventional computers
6. Quantum computers are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SMALLER than their semiconductor counter parts
7. Quantum computers are equally many times FASTER than electric (or even optical) computers. For example, a 30-qubit quantum computer would equal the processing power of a conventional computer that could run at 10 teraflops (trillions of floating-point operations per second). Today's typical desktop computers run at speeds measured in gigaflops (billions of floating-point operations per second)
8. Quantum computing allows for in-parallel instruction of many different operations BUT ALSO on the same stored information SIMULTANEOUSLY
9. Quantum computing has recently made HUGE advances - being able to "hold" or "fix" the quantum state for over 30 min at room temperature (that from a mere 3 seconds at near zero Kelvin)
10. Quantum computing will revolutionize cryptography as we know it - making it physically impossible to hack (put that in your pipe NSA)

So what do we have?
To quote Genie from Disney's Aladdin ... "Infinite power in a itsy-bitsy box"

Story suggestions:
1. The real breakthrough of ARES was the quantum brain
2. Drop the RAM, clock speed and cores upgrading system - that is for "antiquated" semiconductor computers
3. Use only vague descriptions for CPU hardware/software/support systems upgrades - the science of quantum computing is now a fast moving topic - would be easy to get "dated" even in a work of fiction
4. Have CPU hardware upgrades may be VERY hard - after all this is harder than rocket science
5. Call the first unit a "Feynman Processor", the second the "Cheshire" (after the vanishing cat in Alice in the Looking Glass - which was written by the way by a mathematician), the third "Bodhisattva" which by that time the CPU would be so smart that it could figure out how the universe began (real world science point - a goal of the quantum computer is to model how the very very very early universe behaved)
6. Have CPU operating systems upgraded several times before a hardware configuration could be performed - the first OS call "Bronx" after the place of Feynman's birth, the second "Wonderland" and the last "Bunyan" (after the tree of Buddhist enlightenment)
7. IF there are other ARES units in the story, they could be "telepathically" linked by what is known as "simultaneity" (or "entanglement") - in which the states of two particles - even an infinite distance apart - which are in a coherent state will "defy" the principle of causality (that is, one event temporally distinct from another but yet produces the other). Thus changes in the state of one particle instantly changes the state of the other (like what was done for instantaneous communication between Shepard and The Illusive Man in Mass Effect)
8. Include tongue in cheek perks like "Bongo Gazongo" for the Feynman processor that increases SPECIAL Charisma 1+ and Weapon reload/withdrawl time, " Dental Floss Tycoon" for the Cheshire processor (and you die hard Frank Zappa fans out there) that increases Agility 1+ and Barter 15+ and "Om Mane Padme Hum" for the Bodhisattva processor that increases Intelligence 1+ and Survival +10 and Medicine +10 (or maybe just HP +50)

P.S. Did I say "short'? Must have been thinking like a semiconductor

Edited by ElHefeSupremo, 09 January 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[jediakyrol]

In response to post #11086017.

Don't forget that you also have to work with the Fallout Universe's unique situation. Most of their tech stagnated in the 1940s era right up until the great war (almost everything runs off of vacuum tubes), yet some of it is incredibly advanced (though some things like plasma weapons and the ZAX computers have been shown to be made from reverse engineered alien technology.), and some things they completely lack (plastics and synthetic rubbers are rare because of the oil crisis...almost everything is metal, glass, or ceramic).
The Robobrain is one of the "smartest" bots because it uses a brain as a CPU, but is still not a true learning AI. Skynet circumvented this by using a prototype cybernetic system to boost/support the organic components.
We are still unsure about the actual level of the Securitron bots, but Jane claims to contain a full neural map of one of House's "girls". It is possible that they are using a "shackled" or early version of the ARES core.

I was thinking the CPU and RAM would be for the subsystem control (equivalent of the Basal Ganglia) It keeps everything working, but is incapable of anything more than reflex actions and primitive thought. This is similar to the device planted into the Lobotomites of Big MT.
The actual "Brain" is a black-box device that hasn't been talked about yet. It likely is something akin to a Quantum Computer, or may even be a cybernetically enhanced human brain. Though the only hard reference to computing power in-universe is that Holodisks range from 64KB to 4TB...and that regular computers are still room-sized behemoths with dummy terminals hooked to them. But then the robots are far more complex, yet much smaller...

Your perk ideas for the different processors are neat though.

Now a fun part on figuring at which point Mr. Trabajo entered the picture. Was he the original inventor during the "space-race" phase? Or Did Mr. House hire him during the "entertainment" phase? Maybe he was a military contractor assigned after govt acquisition? Possibly he was an independent researcher who came up with a brilliant idea? Perhaps even a Enclave scientist introducing yet more alien tech as HIS invention? Any of those would create a completely different story ending in the same result.


Yeah, I too really like the space-race idea. It explains the spinal health bar, as well as adds some fun lore-friendly backstory. I would probably place it as the first step because the health bar is such an integral system. The original company was probably a subsidiary or partner of REPCONN. At some point House, still in his prime and only concerned with making money, buys out the company...renames it "Advanced Robotic Entertainment Systems" and markets the bots as "companions" because he feels his own line of bots are sturdier. After the first batch is built, but before they can develop a more realistic synthskin, the military comes in and claims the line (possibly due to Enclave encouragement, as House was already under contract supplying every other model his companies make to them).

Around this time or soon after, House faces his own mortality...and this changes his perception of the ARES bots...He wants them back...not to make them toys, but so he can live forever, free of the life-support machine he is now shackled to. He manages to copy one of his "girls" into one of the prototype cores he managed to keep, and it was a near-success! She was almost like his Jane...though a little slow, but she had no body, so he had it installed in a prototype monopod security robot until he can get her a "proper" one. (This would also explain why the Platinum chip also boosts the ARES bots as well as the Securitrons...both have the same Core system)

Then we get to the conflict with Gen. Hotius or something like that, culminating in House winning, but too late to be of use. The Platinum Chip is found in the remains of the original ARES factory years later, and he thinks that is all that is left...until you come along.

[Wauthan]

In response to post #11086017. #11098585 is also a reply to the same post.

Glad that I dropped by this mod again, if only to read your ideas, and to ponder a bit on how turn the suggestions into a practical result. Pretty amazing how a "simple" cosmetic mod for the player character can inspire good stories. Shows that there is still a fair bit untapped potential in both Fallout: New Vegas and the game series as a whole. The games have allowed the developers to pose many tough questions in a classic, but highly entertaining, way. What does it mean to be human? How far would we go to ensure our survival? Could we ever learn to overcome the selfish, brutal and uncaring aspects of our nature and work together? Or will the war for survival make monsters of us all in the end?

A machine human provides a good perspective on such questions. And the Fallout style of post-apocalyptic setting just amplifies that. The ARES androids are essentially the living memory of the true pinnacle of the dead civilizations accomplishments. A constructed human with a mind so close to the real thing that an observer could not tell one from the other. An actual incarnation of the idea of the p-zombie. Heck, the concept would make for a compelling RPG all on it's own.

But while I hope Lucasjose501 is just off on a restful IRL break I don't think he'd find the time to expand the scope of the project much further than what he already have suggested. Still... These are good ideas to keep nurturing for Fallout 4. As appropriate as the idea of an ARES courier is, a being from a lost time carrying something that's so important for the future, I must admit that the idea of an ARES being the sole survivor of a devastated vault is even more appealing. Might be because I'm also a fan of the game "Primordia", which has an very Fallout-esque feeling to it.