65 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

 

 As for the killing itself, if you speak with Torygg in Sovengarde it's glaringly obvious he wasn't abruptly murdered as the poncy nobility of Solitude's Blue Palace would have you believe.

 

Absolute poppycock. All the conversation with Torygg indicates is that a challenge was issued, and Torygg couldn't refuse despite knowing he would lose. There's no implication of timing at all. In fact, the eye-witnesses indicate that Ulfric arrived at the Blue Palace, issued a challenge, CHEATED and then left. 

And yes, CHEATED. Despite Imperistan's constant attempt to bring up that idiotic duel (which, again, despite being in the history books is disputed by practically all the archaeology) we have been told, in universe, that Nordic duels are martial contests. We're even given indications that the great Wulfhearth had to be forcibly gagged for duels (and his own coronation) to prevent him from accidentally using the Thu'um. 

 

Cheating in a duel is tantamount to murder in most cultures.

[skyrimguyxx]

1. Ulfric had no control over the situation. He couldn't possible be responsible for you being on that carriage. You were arrested and placed there by the empire while attempting to enter the country illegally.

 

2. The Stormcloaks are no differant than every other race in Tamriel when it comes to Racism and xenophobism. Remember the dunmer in Morrowind? To condemn one group or race for something that the other races are well known to do is ridiculous. The Nords from what i can see, want their country back from foreigners its not entirely about race. Let me explain...the dark elves are elves. This is like people condemning all Arabs even if they aren't related to a certain terrorist group. Sorry it's a questionable subject but its a good example. The Argonians and Khajit not being allowed in the city makes sense, their homeland's are aligned with the Thalmor...who the stormcloaks view as the bigger enemy. I would not allow potential spies to roam about in my city during this time period. No way no how.

 

3. Your treating the stormcloaks like they are all Ulfric. The stormcloak soldiers are fighting for the ideals that they believe in and Ulfric preaches. They fight for their right to worship Talos and not be forced to change their way of life by outside influence. Even if Ulfric is a spy, which he isn't...he was just broken and manipulated into thinking that he had become one. It isn't his fault, torture is no joke. You all would break, guranteed. After the Markarth incident which was questionable and the source is from a biased imperial book he broke ties with the Thalmor because of their policy about Talos. The dossier could also be fake, there is just no way to be sure. But in the eyes of a stormcloak soldier he is only fighting for his homeland and the right to worship who he pleases. He is no Thalmor agent.

 

4. If it is a ruse then why are the Imperials oppressing the people of Skyrim by taking away their most important religous figure? Why has it been almost thirty years since the war and the Empire has done nothing with this so called ruse? Those conversation's don't suggest anything about it being a ruse, only that the empire is no happier with the dominion that anyone else and eventually will break the treaty.

 

5. The fight was a trial by combat. It was his right as a Nord to face the High King in honorable combat, slay him and become High King. There is no rule against using your voice to defeat your opponent, no matter how "powerful" your voice is its just another part of your body like your arms and legs. Suggesting that he shouted him apart is irrelevent information but lets be realistic...if he were to do that, it would be pretty obvious at the funeral and pretty hard to hide anyways. Ulfric would not be able to convince anyone otherwise. What actually happened is he fought him in honorable combat in front of the court, shouted him to the ground and impaled him with his sword. You cannot call this murder, this isn't the 19th century.

 

6. Where Hadvar says you came from depends on what race you chose. In your case you chose Imperial.

 

7. The Empire cannot afford to pull it's legions off the lines with the dominion. It would not invade Skyrim unless the dominion was out of the way, and it is likely that if such an event were to occur that Skyrim would allign itself with Hammerfell against such an invasion. What is more likely to happen is the Empire will enter negotiations with Skyrim to avoid further conflict so they don't have to keep an entire legion on their border there. Kings are not children.

 

I side with the Stormcloaks because i have to. Regardless of Ulfric's intentions or purpose i fight for my right to worship Talos. The Empire is weak, her soldiers are poorly trained and disciplined and Skyrim has a right to make it's own decisions about their way of life without a bunch of Elves telling them otherwise. If Ulfric tries to allow Skyrim to be taken over for some reason, it is unlikely that his soldiers will assist him in that effort at all. And regardless, when you finish the war on his side he points out that he plans to fortify their northern shores against potential invasion. Such an invasion is not likely to occur however, as it is rather out of the way and would be very costly.

[Lachdonin]

The Empire is weak, her soldiers are poorly trained and disciplined 

 

I'm gonna stop you right there. While i agree with much of what you've said (except the invasion thing, the Dominion would certainly invade Skyrim eventually, since they plan to exterminate man) but you have no evidence of this what so ever. There are very few actual Legionaries in Skyrim, and most of the 'Legion' there are locally recruited Nords who would basically count as Auxiliaries in a true Legion. The few known Legionaries in Skyrim include veteran commanders such as Rikke, and highly competent soldiers like Hadvar. 

 

The fact that the Legion, when out-numbered and assaulting a fortified position (the Dominion held the walls of the Imperial City) managed to not only win, but totally wipe out the Dominion forces, many of whom likely had centuries of experience (elves being long lived and all) is a resounding endorsement for the training the Legion receives. 

[Kraeten]

 

 

 As for the killing itself, if you speak with Torygg in Sovengarde it's glaringly obvious he wasn't abruptly murdered as the poncy nobility of Solitude's Blue Palace would have you believe.

 

Absolute poppycock. All the conversation with Torygg indicates is that a challenge was issued, and Torygg couldn't refuse despite knowing he would lose. There's no implication of timing at all.

 

Save for Stentor, no one on the Imperial payroll claims a challenge was issued. Instead the common story is Avencci's, that of the abrupt murder. The idea that Torygg was torn apart by Ulfric's thu'um is the common story for their side. That Ulfric may have cheated is suspiciously absent from their propaganda. What story they are telling can be plainly seen to be false, considering Ulfric can't shout someone to pieces even if he wanted to.

 

So here's what we have. On one hand we have the Imperials who generally don't care about Nord Traditions in the first place, who would rather paint Ulfric as a cold blooded murderer rather than argue he cheated in a duel, and on the other we have Ulfric who plainly can't shout anyone to pieces if he tried.

Edited by Kraeten, 09 May 2014 - 05:39 AM.

[elricshan]

Well lets see it this way:
thalmor wants to destroy all the towers and in that way unmake the world, because they belive this will bring them back into a state of godlyhood.

the empire have gone into a temporaly treaty as to regain their strenght and fight back against the thalmor. and therefor they needed to ban a deity who people believe was the founder of the empire. therefor they did not pursue worshipers until ulfric started causing trouble and therefore the empire was forced to pursue worshipers.
as it is comply believed that Talos is tiber septim, after the war had started again with the thalmor, we can safely assume that the ban would be lifted quite fast.

and then if we go and look at who is fighting in this war.
Is it all the nords in skyrim? No it is not. many are just at home waiting for it to end.
is it therefore all nords against and foreign power? No it is not.
therefore as we cant use numbers of nords in each factions we have to use what number of cities they had in the beginning of the civil war questline. and therefore the logical way of thinking is that 50% of the nords are in each faction. but if you also think of all the civilians that dont care. it is reasonable to think that 1/3 of the nords wants to be in the empire. 1/3 wants to be free and 1/3 just wants the war to end so things can become more normal.

if you then look at the history of the empire. the empire one can say is the dying remains of the septim empire. Septim Empire, was an Empire founded by Tiber Septim that began in the Second Era. the end of the septim emperors. was in Oblivon and marked the beginning of the Fourth Era. the birth of the septim empire was in 3E 1. in 3E 433 was the oblivion crisis.
in 4E 201 — Torygg, the High King of Skyrim, is killed by Ulfric Stormcloak.

because of this we see that skyrim has been a part of the empire around 600 years.

is therefore the empire a foreign power invading skyrim trying to take control and is ulfric therefore an defender? No the empire is not invading and ulfric is not defending.

if we therefore summarize:
thalmor bad, empire have temporally peace with bad thalmor.
when peace ends empire will fight against bad thalmors.
is is smart to therefore weaken the empire? NO.
is it all nords against the empire trying to get out? NO
do the stormcloaks dislike most other races that is not nords. YES.

and therefore join the empire. end the civil war (while killing as many thalmor you can undetected.) after the war is ended train more troops and crush the thalmor before they unmake the world.

And for those who says that the empire have not broken the treaty even if 30 years have passed: i have no clue how fertile elves are compared to humans, but i believe that they reproduce slower than humans. and therefore the empire (as they did not believe the thalmor was that much of a threat after the oblivion crisis). now they know they are a threat, and the humans would have been faster replenish their losses.

 

[Lachdonin]

 

Save for Stentor, no one on the Imperial payroll claims a challenge was issued. Instead the common story is Avencci's, that of the abrupt murder. 

 

 

The story of Ulfric shouting Torygg 'to pieces' is just as common on the Stormcloak side as it is the Imperial. It's pure rumour and here-say. Avencci is, admittedly, a snivelling weasel, but his knowledge is subject to the same unreliable sources as everyone else. 

 

For those who actually witnessed the event, they direct you to Stentor, who makes it clear a challenge was issued. We have only three first-hand accounts of the incident (Ulfric, Torygg and Stentor's) all of which confirm a challenge. 

 

Yes, there is propaganda about murder and so forth, but i in no way argued that such rumours were to be taken as fact. In fact, i called attention to the fact that the court of the Blue Palace direct you to Stentor, who informs you there was a duel. No one in the Blue Palace says Ulfric walked in and abruptly murdered Torygg. They do accuse him of murder, but again, they don't imply a spontaneous timing. 

 

I aldo think it's worth noting that no one on the Stormcloak payroll indicates there was a challenge either. There are only 4 sources which mention it, only 3 of which are primary witnesses (Rogvir being the 4th, though without the other 3 his testimony is suspect). In fact, no one elsewhere mentions the actual circumstances of Torygg's death beyond it being a trigger for the current situation. 

[madcow12]

just because a challenge was issued does not mean that the challenge was carried out in agreeable terms

one can meet up to a challenge but cheat the challenge itself. then it makes sense because while stentor guarantees a challenge was issued, the term following the challenge results is not a defeat, as in torygg was defeated by ulfric, who then escaped solitude, but a murder

 

or you know just put aside everything, the laws or traditions which outline what you can use, the characteristic of the challenge issued and whatnot

If a)the challenge was legit and b) the challenge was carried out in a legit way then c) ulfric would not have had to flee the capital city as if he had 'killed someone' rather than a high spritied stroll as the victor like he did and raise a army to subjugate the pro empire jarls by force. better to just then and there have elisif step down, because he has proven his right to rule

 

but then in game tells us ulfric fled solitude, having roggvir open the gates for him as he ran away. this means either condition a or b was not met, but knowing a has been fulfilled, we can naturally say B was not fulfilled, hence ulfric murdered the high king

[GetTheJojDone]

 

 

 

2. The Stormcloaks are no differant than every other race in Tamriel when it comes to Racism and xenophobism. Remember the dunmer in Morrowind? To condemn one group or race for something that the other races are well known to do is ridiculous. The Nords from what i can see, want their country back from foreigners its not entirely about race. Let me explain...the dark elves are elves. This is like people condemning all Arabs even if they aren't related to a certain terrorist group. Sorry it's a questionable subject but its a good example. The Argonians and Khajit not being allowed in the city makes sense, their homeland's are aligned with the Thalmor...who the stormcloaks view as the bigger enemy. I would not allow potential spies to roam about in my city during this time period. No way no how.

 

3. Your treating the stormcloaks like they are all Ulfric. The stormcloak soldiers are fighting for the ideals that they believe in and Ulfric preaches. They fight for their right to worship Talos and not be forced to change their way of life by outside influence. Even if Ulfric is a spy, which he isn't...he was just broken and manipulated into thinking that he had become one. It isn't his fault, torture is no joke. You all would break, guranteed. After the Markarth incident which was questionable and the source is from a biased imperial book he broke ties with the Thalmor because of their policy about Talos. The dossier could also be fake, there is just no way to be sure. But in the eyes of a stormcloak soldier he is only fighting for his homeland and the right to worship who he pleases. He is no Thalmor agent.

 

4. If it is a ruse then why are the Imperials oppressing the people of Skyrim by taking away their most important religous figure? Why has it been almost thirty years since the war and the Empire has done nothing with this so called ruse? Those conversation's don't suggest anything about it being a ruse, only that the empire is no happier with the dominion that anyone else and eventually will break the treaty.

 

2. The Argonians are not affiliated with the Aldmeri Dominion. So, in all likelihood, it's just Ulfric's bigotry at play. I also disagree with your claim that all races in Tamriel are racist and xenophobic. The Imperials, for example; the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm are immensely grateful and relieved should you side with the Empire, kill Ulfric and take Windhelm, because they know that the Empire will accommodate them and their cultures. The only races in Tamriel that are generally as racist and xenophobic as the Stornmcloaks are are the Dunmer (the ones outside Morrowind are generally alright, though) and, funnily enough, Altmer supremacists like the Thalmor.

 

3. Why would First Emissary Elenwen keep fake dossiers in her personal office? That's a silly assertion you have no basis for making. Also, according to the dossier, Ulfric became an asset at some between being set free and the Markarth Incident. I don't see any evidence it was a psychological consequence of torture. The opinions of Stormcloak Soldiers are also irrelevant and have no bearing on whether or not Ulfric was/is a Thalmor asset - they're just footsloggers doing what Ulfric and the other rebel Jarls tell them. And what does it matter if the Bear of Markarth book is biased? Isnt every book written in Skyrim biased? Including the Stormcloak ones?

 

4. It's also been over thirty years since the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. Has the country recovered since then? No. It's the same with the Empire. Even after the Concordat was signed, the remainder of the Empire has been in chaos - look at Cicero's journal - he describes the sacking and outbreaks of violence in cities across Cyrodiil and High Rock which are precisely what decimated the Dark Brotherhood and drove him, the lone survivor to Skyrim in the first place.

 

The Emperor made the right decision - to end the war while he was in a stronger position than before. He was right to decide to minimise the damage done to the Empire by signing the Concordat rather than bringing more suffering and misery upon his people by carrying on the war. After all, in the cities the Dominion did capture, they committed "unspeakable atrocities" against the inhabitants, especially in the Imperial City. Did Titus really want to risk letting that happen again? Anyway, what matters is that High Rock and Cyrodiil are both taking one for the team by accepting the Concordat to give the Empire the respite it needs to regroup, bearing in mind that Talos, being the god of mankind and founder of their Empire, is just as important to them. Why can't the Stormcloaks do the same? In fact, I distinctly recall Alvor in Riverwood saying that most people continued to privately worship Talos until Ulfric played into the Dominion's hands at Markarth and gave them the excuse to crack down on Talos worship. So essentially, the excessive Thalmor presence and enforcement of the Concordat in Skyrim is his fault.

Edited by GetTheJojDone, 24 May 2014 - 09:18 PM.

[fraquar]

Reason 1

 

The Empire chose NOT to separate a common horse thief and someone they don't even know from being a Stormcloak.   That's scary, because that implies that the Imperial military leadership can basically kill anyone in Skyrim under the cloak of "Stormcloak sympathizer".    Lets be clear about this, the leader of all of the Imperial armed forces stood by and watched people being put to death for no reason.  Mistake my @55.

 

 

Reason 2

 

Everyone in Skyrim is racist, seeing as the Khajiit aren't allowed in ANY Skyrim city.   I'd argue that if the Stormcloaks were as racist to the degree that everyone seems to believe then the Dunmer would never be tolerated INSIDE the Windhelm city walls to begin with - they'd have been thrown out.   Instead, they have a Dunmer working a shop in the city marketplace - go figure.  

 

Reason 3

 

I'd argue who is less of a Thalmor sympathizer?   Ulfric being charged as a Thalmor spy, or the Imperial's who allow the Thalmor to set up "chop shops" all over Skyrim - to interrogate, terrorize and murder Skyrim citizens?

 

 

Reason 4

 

The Empire will never get stronger when they continue to allow the Thalmor to run roughshod throughout their territories and allow them to be privy to any decisions they make in Skyrim.     The only check in the Skyrim game to the Thalmor seems to be the Dragonborn.

 

Reason 5

 

The question remains is what are the acceptable terms and conditions of a challenge to the throne in this world.   In our own world in past history there were no conditions, just look at The Bible to see how disputes of power were settled - by any means necessary.   It was only in modern history that the concept of the duel arose to settle disputes.   So is Skyrim representative of 12th Century earth, or in say 1st Century earth?

 

Reason 6

 

The fact that we came from Cyrodill only means we travelled from Cyrodill, it does not imply we are even welcome in Skyrim (i.e. a Khajiit).   It is totally 100% upon the player to role play exactly what he was doing prior to, and after the encounter at Helgen.

 

Reason 7

 

Skyrim is only destined to be an independent state apart from the Empire until such time as the Empire gets it's act together and is actually REPRESENTING the interests of all it's member states.    Yep, under the current rule Skyrim would have nothing to do with the Empire - they have no backbone.   Over time, things change - and right now 40 years after the Treaty nothing has changed with the Empire.   They farm out Skyrim's assets all the while selling them out to the Thalmor's whim.

[Lachdonin]

Reason 1

 

The Empire chose NOT to separate a common horse thief and someone they don't even know from being a Stormcloak.   That's scary, because that implies that the Imperial military leadership can basically kill anyone in Skyrim under the cloak of "Stormcloak sympathizer".    Lets be clear about this, the leader of all of the Imperial armed forces stood by and watched people being put to death for no reason.  Mistake my @55.

 

 

Reason 3

 

I'd argue who is less of a Thalmor sympathizer?   Ulfric being charged as a Thalmor spy, or the Imperial's who allow the Thalmor to set up "chop shops" all over Skyrim - to interrogate, terrorize and murder Skyrim citizens?

 

 

Reason 4

 

The Empire will never get stronger when they continue to allow the Thalmor to run roughshod throughout their territories and allow them to be privy to any decisions they make in Skyrim.     The only check in the Skyrim game to the Thalmor seems to be the Dragonborn.

 

Reason 5

 

The question remains is what are the acceptable terms and conditions of a challenge to the throne in this world.   In our own world in past history there were no conditions, just look at The Bible to see how disputes of power were settled - by any means necessary.   It was only in modern history that the concept of the duel arose to settle disputes.   So is Skyrim representative of 12th Century earth, or in say 1st Century earth?

 

Reason 7

 

Skyrim is only destined to be an independent state apart from the Empire until such time as the Empire gets it's act together and is actually REPRESENTING the interests of all it's member states.    Yep, under the current rule Skyrim would have nothing to do with the Empire - they have no backbone.   Over time, things change - and right now 40 years after the Treaty nothing has changed with the Empire.   They farm out Skyrim's assets all the while selling them out to the Thalmor's whim.

 

1; You were caught in an ambush during which several recruits and known Stormcloak commanders were gathering. Stormcloak commanders who had been previously identified as actively recruiting people to their cause. If you were found in a terrorist's basement, do you think any nations authorities would buy the story "i was just here to steal a rolex?"

 

3; There is nothing, anywhere, to indicate that the Empire permits the Thalmor capture, torture or interrogation of it's citizens. They do that themselves. It is pretty clear that the Thalmor agents are operating covertly for the sole purpose of inciting hostility against the Empire. The ONLY permitted Thalmor operation in Skyrim is the Embassy and it's diplomats.

 

*Edit* Somehow i forgot about that prison. It's existence indicates the Empire hands over Talos worshippers to the Thalmor, as per the terms of the Concordant. However, it doesn't indicate that the Thalmor are aloud to arrest or abduct people of their own volition. The torture cells in the Embassy, locked well out of the way and beyond the prying eyes of the Imperial Legion, are a rather clear indication that the Thalmor are operating beyond their legal purview, and hiding it from the Empire.  

 

4; Totally impossible to support. In fact, i can name 4 seperate occasions in which the Empire has come out stronger from directly under the boot of the enemy. The Alessian Rebellion, the Tsaeci invasion, the Alliance War, and Potema and Orgnum's occupation. The Empires of Cyrodiil THRIVE on overbearing enemies. 

 

5; We KNOW the terms of duels in Skyrim's culture. It's a martial contest, as told in Shor son of Shor, the songs of Pelinal and in the testimony of Wulfhearth Ash-King. In fact, Wulfhearth would have to be gagged, both during his coronation and in duels, to prevent him from ACCIDENTALLY using his Thu'um. 

 

7; You clearly don't understand the concept of an Empire. They aren't about representing the interest of member states, they're about keeping the peace between them, often through force, to ensure a flow of wealth to the centre. This isn't a democracy where every idiot and inbred un-educate gets a say. 

Edited by Lachdonin, 27 May 2014 - 10:54 AM.