246 replies to this topic

[Valkasha]

I was simply debunking the statement that Heimskr gets arrested, nothing more. He gets arrested if you have the unofficialskyrimpatch, but that's an unofficial mod. Balgruuf doesn't seem like the kind of guy to arrest Talos worshippers, since he openly worships Talos and goes by the old nord-ways himself.

Edited by Valkasha, 29 September 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[kradus]

 

To be brief, ALL the Jarls are autonomous - that's how it works in Skyrim, Balgruuf is no different. Of course he has control over who he can arrest - so does every other Jarl. All the dialogue he has indicates that after Message to Whiterun, he's sided with the Empire, because if he didn't Ulfric would've conquered Whiterun, and now that he's made his choice, he's putting his money where his mouth is and sticking with them - if he's still Jarl in Season Unending he'll sit next to Elisif, Rikke and Tullius. Not only that, if you decide to give Markarth to the Stormcloaks, he'll say (among a hubbub of other people talking at the same time) "This is how the Empire rewards us for our loyalty?".

 

About this, Ulfric offered Balgruuf the option to join the stormcloaks, which means his rule was never in danger and a stormcloak attack wasn't garanteed untill Balgruuf officially declined to support Ulfric. This proves he was for the empire all the time, meaning his statements come from loyalty, not necessity. Only, he didn't want his hold to suffer the war. He also stands with the imperial delegation in High Hrothgar from a 'neutral' position.

Edited by kradus, 30 September 2014 - 02:00 AM.

[Lachdonin]

Indeed. Balgruf was hoping to avoid the conflict altogether, or maybe to serve as a middle ground that could build a peace without full-blown warfare. He never supported succession, and when it came down to the do or die decision, he finally accepted that avoidance and neutrality were not going to solve anything, so he bit the bullet and fell into line where he always intended to be.

[GetTheJojDone]

 

 

To be brief, ALL the Jarls are autonomous - that's how it works in Skyrim, Balgruuf is no different. Of course he has control over who he can arrest - so does every other Jarl. All the dialogue he has indicates that after Message to Whiterun, he's sided with the Empire, because if he didn't Ulfric would've conquered Whiterun, and now that he's made his choice, he's putting his money where his mouth is and sticking with them - if he's still Jarl in Season Unending he'll sit next to Elisif, Rikke and Tullius. Not only that, if you decide to give Markarth to the Stormcloaks, he'll say (among a hubbub of other people talking at the same time) "This is how the Empire rewards us for our loyalty?".

 

About this, Ulfric offered Balgruuf the option to join the stormcloaks, which means his rule was never in danger and a stormcloak attack wasn't garanteed untill Balgruuf officially declined to support Ulfric. This proves he was for the empire all the time, meaning his statements come from loyalty, not necessity. Only, he didn't want his hold to suffer the war. He also stands with the imperial delegation in High Hrothgar from a 'neutral' position.

 

 

Both sides try to gain his loyalty, but if you side with the Empire it happens the other way around - Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe as a gesture of peace, and Ulfric refuses it - ergo, he is the aggressor.

[Lachdonin]

 

 

Both sides try to gain his loyalty, but if you side with the Empire it happens the other way around - Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe as a gesture of peace, and Ulfric refuses it - ergo, he is the aggressor.

 

 

By that logic, if you were to extend an olive branch and it is refused, you're the aggressor. No, the aggressor is, and will always remain, the one who initiates conflict. Regardless of the side, Ulfric attacks Whiterun. He is the aggressor no matter what side you choose. 

[LeddBate]

 

 

 

Both sides try to gain his loyalty, but if you side with the Empire it happens the other way around - Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe as a gesture of peace, and Ulfric refuses it - ergo, he is the aggressor.

 

 

By that logic, if you were to extend an olive branch and it is refused, you're the aggressor. No, the aggressor is, and will always remain, the one who initiates conflict. Regardless of the side, Ulfric attacks Whiterun. He is the aggressor no matter what side you choose. 

 

 

I'm not certain, but I think GetTheJojDone was actually referring to Ulfric as the aggressor with that sentence, therefore agreeing with you beforehand.

 

If I'm wrong... -whoops, never mind.

[Lachdonin]

Hmmm... I suppose the wording could go either way... I read it as Balgruf offering an ultimatum, and Ulfric turning him down. Since Balgruf issued the ultimatum, he would he the aggressor...

Either way, I think the point is that Balgruf always stood with the Empire, even if he was trying to play the avoidance card...

[NightGuardX]

"The Empire shall rise!"

It's been a LONG while since I played skyrim and I hardly remeber most things, but I always chose to be a Imperial because I see Nords as intolerant, and a bit racist. I mean from what I hear from Ulfric Stormarse he wants Skyrim to be land reserved for the Nords and I'm not about that life.

I mean I don't like some Skyrim races (*cough* Khajiits *cough* Argonians..) but having attitude similar to a Long Live the South supporter just isn't cool with me as I really don't like racism especially with an attitude like EXTERMINATE ALL NON-NORDS!

 

If anyone wants to debate, come at me bro! :pirate:

Just kidding, but if I'm wrong..correct me as I am redoing the Skyrim after 1-2 years and don't rember many trivia/details.

[MidbossVyers]

I thought we already established that Ulfric and most Stormcloaks do not want to "exterminate all non-Nords".  They just want Skyrim to be ruled by a Nord, as opposed to being slave to a non-Nord, like the Emperor or the Thalmor (by the way, does the Aldmeri Dominion still have a queen, like in Online?). You Imperials really have to stop using the straw man.  Seriously, I was almost planning on supporting the Empire, then people, like you, who claim to support it, actually pushed me towards the Stormcloaks.

Edited by MidbossVyers, 02 October 2014 - 12:45 PM.

[cephalo2]

I've been observing these issues in my playthrough, and it is quite an interesting choice. I think I'm going to go with the Stormcloaks for the following reasons:

 

The alliance with the Empire brings the Nords under foreign justice and meddling for little in return. Some say that the Empire is the best protector against the Thalmor, but I see Thalmor all over Skyrim, openly doing as they please. When busting a stormcloak out of a Thalmor jail, I stood on the ramparts and killed 20 with my sheild and axe while Lydia picked off the archers. These guys are weak, and for the empire to let them commit outrages all over Skyrim means they must be even weaker.

 

The racism of Ulfric and his followers is a normal reaction to foreign dominance. These attitudes are unlikely to change while their cause is impacting Nord life in so many uncomfortable ways.