246 replies to this topic

[GetTheJojDone]

I thought we already established that Ulfric and most Stormcloaks do not want to "exterminate all non-Nords".  They just want Skyrim to be ruled by a Nord, as opposed to being slave to a non-Nord, like the Emperor or the Thalmor (by the way, does the Aldmeri Dominion still have a queen, like in Online?). You Imperials really have to stop using the straw man.  Seriously, I was almost planning on supporting the Empire, then people, like you, who claim to support it, actually pushed me towards the Stormcloaks.

 

 No, the Dominion doesn't have royalty - they were pretty much the first thing to go when the Thalmor took over the Isles. How they were disposed of, and if any of them still exist, is unclear.

 

 

I've been observing these issues in my playthrough, and it is quite an interesting choice. I think I'm going to go with the Stormcloaks for the following reasons:

 

The alliance with the Empire brings the Nords under foreign justice and meddling for little in return. Some say that the Empire is the best protector against the Thalmor, but I see Thalmor all over Skyrim, openly doing as they please. When busting a stormcloak out of a Thalmor jail, I stood on the ramparts and killed 20 with my sheild and axe while Lydia picked off the archers. These guys are weak, and for the empire to let them commit outrages all over Skyrim means they must be even weaker.

 

The racism of Ulfric and his followers is a normal reaction to foreign dominance. These attitudes are unlikely to change while their cause is impacting Nord life in so many uncomfortable ways.

 

The Empire IS the best protection for Skyrim and indeed Tamriel for the Thalmor. But that isn't saying much, given that outside the Empire and the Dominion, Tamriel has more or less regressed into the status quo of the Second Era - lots of petty, independent states all warring over insignificant scraps of land. The assertion that the Empire's component provinces are individually stronger than the Empire itself is utter lunacy. The Empire barely held it's own against the Dominion in the Great War, which, in terms of scale and casualties, was probably analogous to one of our World Wars. The Emperor made a remarkably humanitarian decision (a stance seldom taken by Ulfric, who, as shown at Markarth, believes everyone should either fight to the death for his views, or be killed for not doing so) to submit to the Thalmor purely to prevent the war from becoming even more protracted and unspeakably destructive.

 

And don't be silly - of course you killed 20  - you're the gods-damned Dragonborn - who, in case you've forgotten, is a hero of far greater power than pretty much anyone else on the face of Tamriel. That's how heroes work in Tamriel, according to the UESP's lore pages - they're effectively just deus ex machinas. The Thalmor are not weak. You're just the Dragonborn, and as such capable of feats far beyond anyone else.

 

I hear a lot of people complaining about the "impact the Empire has on Nord life" and "foreign meddling" you describe, but I've never actually seen any such infringements by the Empire, and I have difficulty believing it is anything more than a strawman. There is, of course the ban on Talos worship (which is only likely to last until the next inevitable war between the Empire and the Dominion). But given that Talos is the patron god of all of mankind, not just Nords, the ban is hardly a serious blow to the Nords alone. If the Bretons and Imperials can take one for the team and accept it for now, why can't the Nords?

 

Anyway, aside from that, I've yet to see any infringement by the Empire on the "Nord culture/lifestyle/whatever". The Jarls are so autonomous that they're almost independent, and ALL of them are Nords. These Jarls have control over their lands that I've yet to see the Empire override, they elect the High King, and they can impeach him if they see fit (as would have happened to Torygg had he refused Ulfric's challenge). So the whole thing about "Imperial dominance" over the "Nord lifestyle" is more of a strawman than racism toward the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm.

Edited by GetTheJojDone, 02 October 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[MidbossVyers]

Did you just paraphrase Bear of Markarth in your first paragraph?  Also, you say Imperials "took one for the team", Sylvian and a few other Imperials say hi.

[kradus]

I suggest paying a visit to Arcadia in whiterun and to Thongvor Silverblood when he is Jarl to help clear some stuff. Windhelm isn't the only 'strawman' in the game.

[GetTheJojDone]

Did you just paraphrase Bear of Markarth in your first paragraph?  Also, you say Imperials "took one for the team", Sylvian and a few other Imperials say hi.

 No, but so what if I did? And Sylvian and co are clearly in the minority.

Edited by GetTheJojDone, 02 October 2014 - 06:24 PM.

[NightGuardX]

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, Titus Mede II..." "...and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire." "May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty." "Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!"

[kradus]

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, Titus Mede II..." "...and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire." "May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty." "Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!"

 

That reminds me that Ulfric must have sworn that oath too. Seems like he asked for Tullius and co. to bring him down.

[MidbossVyers]

I could say the same about any Legionnaire who also joins the Dark Brotherhood.  If anything, that line "Long live the Emperor" can be used sarcastically, like during the Lion King when Scar kills Mufasa and says "Long live the King".

[cephalo2]

 

Anyway, aside from that, I've yet to see any infringement by the Empire on the "Nord culture/lifestyle/whatever". The Jarls are so autonomous that they're almost independent, and ALL of them are Nords. These Jarls have control over their lands that I've yet to see the Empire override, they elect the High King, and they can impeach him if they see fit (as would have happened to Torygg had he refused Ulfric's challenge). So the whole thing about "Imperial dominance" over the "Nord lifestyle" is more of a strawman than racism toward the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm.

 

 

There I was, in Helgen, in the middle of Skyrim, about to be executed by imperial soldiers. I ran to the local Jarl for protection. That's not an alliance, that is subjugation. An independent Skyrim can ally with whoever serves their interests. Multiple states banding together politically for greater strength and shared values is one thing, failed imperial domination is another.

[GetTheJojDone]

 

 

Anyway, aside from that, I've yet to see any infringement by the Empire on the "Nord culture/lifestyle/whatever". The Jarls are so autonomous that they're almost independent, and ALL of them are Nords. These Jarls have control over their lands that I've yet to see the Empire override, they elect the High King, and they can impeach him if they see fit (as would have happened to Torygg had he refused Ulfric's challenge). So the whole thing about "Imperial dominance" over the "Nord lifestyle" is more of a strawman than racism toward the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm.

 

 

There I was, in Helgen, in the middle of Skyrim, about to be executed by imperial soldiers. I ran to the local Jarl for protection. That's not an alliance, that is subjugation. An independent Skyrim can ally with whoever serves their interests. Multiple states banding together politically for greater strength and shared values is one thing, failed imperial domination is another.

 

 

So the Empire should let you walk free because you broke their laws on their watch, inside the borders of Skyrim, which is their territory, albeit largely autonomous? "Subjugation" indeed.

 

And you're still not persuading me that an independent Skyrim would be a good idea - Skyrim would be hostile to the two biggest remaining powers on Tamriel and the Nords' hatred of Argonians and Dunmer, and their treatment of them in Windhelm for instance, makes an alliance with them unlikely (not to mention Morrowind is incredibly weak right now, and we still know very little about the intentions and nature of the An-Xileel, who seem to be very aggressive and vengeful). That really only leaves Hammerfell and the Orcs. Hammerfell, by all accounts is still dealing with it's own internal strife, and, it's fair to say, is just as weakened as a result of the war with the Thalmor as the Empire is with theirs. The Orcs lost Orsinium and most of the Orcs have fragmented into little scattered tribes across northern Tamriel, and the ones who comment on external affairs at all indicate their isolationism. Quite a few of the rest seem to have joined the Legion. Even assuming that the Nords can obtain the fealty of all the petty Orc chiefs, would they really have enough manpower to be much help? So, realistically, who would be left for Skyrim to ally with who would be any help against it's enemies?

 

Again you talk about "imperial domination", which you've yet to satisfactorily demonstrate. Care to abandon that strawman? Or at least prove that you're not just brainwashed by the pervasive negative portrayal of empires in western media?

Edited by GetTheJojDone, 03 October 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[Kraeten]

The assertion that the Empire's component provinces are individually stronger than the Empire itself is utter lunacy.

 

If it appears like lunacy, then you obviously haven't given the assertion enough thought. The Empire defeated the main invasion force in Cyrodiil, but instead of holding that victory high to rally what was left of the Empire the Emperor chose to capitulate to the Dominion's demands, essentially making everything they'd lost in defense of the Empire a pointless exercise. The Dominion's demands which sparked the war in the first place were met. Or perhaps I should say they would have been completely met, had Hammerfell not proven itself stronger than Mede's weak Empire. Hammerfell successfully repelled the Dominion on its own.

 

To borrow a quote from a movie I'm fond of, "Will is everything! The will to act."

 

Hammerfell had the willpower, Mede and the rest of his Empire did not. Had Mede and his Empire demonstrated the same willpower the Empire would have been capable of holding onto all of its remaining provinces.