137 replies to this topic

[Lordapolyon]

I've killed and spared Loghain, and I see good reasons for both.

I like Loghain as a character (which is not the same as liking him as a person). In The Stolen Throne and The Calling you see him first as an angry, conflicted young man. He had to watch the rape and murder of his mother at the hands of the Orlesians, and to spend most of his early life as a fugitive. He learned something from his father of the responsibilities of a leader. He's loyal (though he will manipulate the man he follows for "the greater good"), he keeps his word (though he will violate even the most sacred trust "for the greater good"), and he's brave once committed to a fight (though he will write off soldiers and even the son of his ex-lover and closest friend if he doesn't think he can save them). He'll make his choices always based on duty, giving up even love, his own happiness, and the happiness of those around him. He will not admit a mistake unless forced to at sword point, and he has a great capacity for self deception. He's a flawed hero, the best kind of Villain.

I killed him as an Elf, because he sold my people into slavery, threw the country into civil war, and tried to kill me. My character could not forgive him, or trust him, and did not give a damn about his redemption. Let the next Ferelden noble who thought slave trading was an option remember that not even the Regent and father of the Queen was spared. Let Nobles who think of attacking Alistair, their new king, remember Loghain's execution.

I spared him as a Human, because he had once been a Hero, because it would help unite the country, and because killing an enemy who asks for mercy and may yet be of greater use was profoundly unjust. I spared him so that he could redeem himself. In the process, I alienated my closest friend and robbed Ferelden of the man who would have been her king.

Both were fun, and both were in character for those characters.

Umm... I kill him cause he tried to kill me multiple times. Morrigan had a bad childhood too, but you don't see her doing evil things. JK. Actually, im just evil and went, oooh, a chance to kill someone!
Also, im always an elf. sodding humans.

[CrapsterZ]

I kill him simply because I can't bear to let Alistair leave (come on, Alistair and Morrigan's comic relief OVER Loghain? Are you kidding me?)

If I were the Warden, however, I would not necessarily have spared him. But like Arl Eamon said, one's ability to be see reason as the victimised party is strained. I would leave his fate to the Landsmeet and let the nobility decide his fate (or Alistair, as king).

I am, however, disappointed with BW that they did not include an option for that, or for us to convince Alistair to stay on as well. SURELY in the entire journey, where we could persuade STRANGERS to fight in battles against their own inclinations (Loyd, Dwyn) and similarly for Leliana to stay in the party after tainting the Ashes, we'd be persuasive enough to convince Alistair, the character's closest friend and companion to give Loghain a second chance?

I understand the need for drama, but it seems a little inconsistent. I guess in the end I just can't have the best of both worlds ):

[Shacary]

In a sense even tho they were a good person once, that does not forgive their insane failings. Loghain planned Cailans death as evidenced by the early planning of poisoning Eamon. Also if u want historal references, to their family members, even Hitler, Rasputin etc were considered good folks, but it doesnt change the fact that they were evil morally! so ya i killed loghain 14 of the 15 play thrus

[chibievil]

i let him live, i like his accent, and to find out what happens in the epilogue. find out what happens if i let him live, alos he wanted to die by arch demon once, and if you dont make alistair fight loghain, loghain wanted to die, maybe he regrets what he has done, i duno. One time i told him to do it, the other time (male character marrying anora) we done morrigan ritual. there was a time when i was angry at Alistair so i wanted to kill him myself, it wouldnt let me tho. Stupid stupid alistair.
but all the other thousands time i chose Alistair as he was marrying my character, or leaving with my character, or helping rebuild the grey wardens with my character
if only awakening made the DAO have bigger rolses (except oghren) and to have romance.

[CrapsterZ]

Actually, Loghain isn't some scheming villain. If you listen carefully to the strategy meeting at Ostagar and talk to him before you are sent out into the Wilds, Loghain actually does seem to want to win the battle. His betrayal of the king was likely a last minute decision for several reasons:

A) He feels that Cailan is a failure as king when facing the threat of the Bight. Remember that Loghain didn't want him to fight on the battlefield nor did he approve of Cailan's decision to ask Orlais for aid. Also there is the fact of Cailan's fascination "with glory and legends" and that he "relied on the Grey Wardens too much". He obviously felt Cailan was a poor wartime leader.

B) He did place men in the tower, we know that simply because we see tower guards fighting darkspawn and corpses scattered throughout the tower of Ishal when we go to light the beacon. It was likely that Loghain interpreted the late lighting of the beacon as an indication that something had happened in the tower or the king/Wardens had delayed the lighting intentionally and then decided to pull out his forces because he felt the cause was lost and even if they did win the battle, they would likely just delay their defeat with Cailan in charge.

I see his actions following Ostagar as a plan that was quickly thought up to secure his power and prevent the Wardens from coming after him for quitting the field, so he could face the Blight on his own. He is a ruthless antagonist that actually believed he was doing the right thing right up until the point where the Warden defeats and he realizes that the Warden was a strong leader, remember that he says he thought the Warden was "like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war" when you defeat him. Right up to his very end, he believed that he was doing everything for the good of Ferelden, and I really liked him both as a villain and the thought of him as an ally (I still kill him though, there's no way I'm sparing him and letting Alistair leave D: ) He represents, to me, the most dangerous kind of villain, the kind that believes they are in the right and will anything to achieve their ends. Zealots are much more dangerous than mindless monsters.

[danscott84]

Actually, Loghain isn't some scheming villain. If you listen carefully to the strategy meeting at Ostagar and talk to him before you are sent out into the Wilds, Loghain actually does seem to want to win the battle. His betrayal of the king was likely a last minute decision for several reasons:

A) He feels that Cailan is a failure as king when facing the threat of the Bight. Remember that Loghain didn't want him to fight on the battlefield nor did he approve of Cailan's decision to ask Orlais for aid. Also there is the fact of Cailan's fascination "with glory and legends" and that he "relied on the Grey Wardens too much". He obviously felt Cailan was a poor wartime leader.

B) He did place men in the tower, we know that simply because we see tower guards fighting darkspawn and corpses scattered throughout the tower of Ishal when we go to light the beacon. It was likely that Loghain interpreted the late lighting of the beacon as an indication that something had happened in the tower or the king/Wardens had delayed the lighting intentionally and then decided to pull out his forces because he felt the cause was lost and even if they did win the battle, they would likely just delay their defeat with Cailan in charge.

I see his actions following Ostagar as a plan that was quickly thought up to secure his power and prevent the Wardens from coming after him for quitting the field, so he could face the Blight on his own. He is a ruthless antagonist that actually believed he was doing the right thing right up until the point where the Warden defeats and he realizes that the Warden was a strong leader, remember that he says he thought the Warden was "like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war" when you defeat him. Right up to his very end, he believed that he was doing everything for the good of Ferelden, and I really liked him both as a villain and the thought of him as an ally (I still kill him though, there's no way I'm sparing him and letting Alistair leave D: ) He represents, to me, the most dangerous kind of villain, the kind that believes they are in the right and will anything to achieve their ends. Zealots are much more dangerous than mindless monsters.

He says he wants victory, but that last little look at the camera at the ends tells an entire different story. He's played everyone at the table, and he knows it.

Also, regarding the men in the tower, that's not his original plan. Remember he had a deal with Uldred, and the Revered Mother cut Uldred off at the table when he suggested men in the tower were not needed because the mages could send the signal. The signal, IMO, was never supposed to be sent in the original plan.

[Stardusk]

Actually, Loghain isn't some scheming villain. If you listen carefully to the strategy meeting at Ostagar and talk to him before you are sent out into the Wilds, Loghain actually does seem to want to win the battle. His betrayal of the king was likely a last minute decision for several reasons:

A) He feels that Cailan is a failure as king when facing the threat of the Bight. Remember that Loghain didn't want him to fight on the battlefield nor did he approve of Cailan's decision to ask Orlais for aid. Also there is the fact of Cailan's fascination "with glory and legends" and that he "relied on the Grey Wardens too much". He obviously felt Cailan was a poor wartime leader.

B) He did place men in the tower, we know that simply because we see tower guards fighting darkspawn and corpses scattered throughout the tower of Ishal when we go to light the beacon. It was likely that Loghain interpreted the late lighting of the beacon as an indication that something had happened in the tower or the king/Wardens had delayed the lighting intentionally and then decided to pull out his forces because he felt the cause was lost and even if they did win the battle, they would likely just delay their defeat with Cailan in charge.

I see his actions following Ostagar as a plan that was quickly thought up to secure his power and prevent the Wardens from coming after him for quitting the field, so he could face the Blight on his own. He is a ruthless antagonist that actually believed he was doing the right thing right up until the point where the Warden defeats and he realizes that the Warden was a strong leader, remember that he says he thought the Warden was "like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war" when you defeat him. Right up to his very end, he believed that he was doing everything for the good of Ferelden, and I really liked him both as a villain and the thought of him as an ally (I still kill him though, there's no way I'm sparing him and letting Alistair leave D: ) He represents, to me, the most dangerous kind of villain, the kind that believes they are in the right and will anything to achieve their ends. Zealots are much more dangerous than mindless monsters.

He says he wants victory, but that last little look at the camera at the ends tells an entire different story. He's played everyone at the table, and he knows it.

Also, regarding the men in the tower, that's not his original plan. Remember he had a deal with Uldred, and the Revered Mother cut Uldred off at the table when he suggested men in the tower were not needed because the mages could send the signal. The signal, IMO, was never supposed to be sent in the original plan.

Well, if you talk to the Redcliffe knight in Lothering...he says that the Arl was poisoned 2 weeks BEFORE Ostagar...that is weighty evidence in favour fo Loghain planning it from the start.

[Stardusk]

Actually, Loghain isn't some scheming villain. If you listen carefully to the strategy meeting at Ostagar and talk to him before you are sent out into the Wilds, Loghain actually does seem to want to win the battle. His betrayal of the king was likely a last minute decision for several reasons:

A) He feels that Cailan is a failure as king when facing the threat of the Bight. Remember that Loghain didn't want him to fight on the battlefield nor did he approve of Cailan's decision to ask Orlais for aid. Also there is the fact of Cailan's fascination "with glory and legends" and that he "relied on the Grey Wardens too much". He obviously felt Cailan was a poor wartime leader.

B) He did place men in the tower, we know that simply because we see tower guards fighting darkspawn and corpses scattered throughout the tower of Ishal when we go to light the beacon. It was likely that Loghain interpreted the late lighting of the beacon as an indication that something had happened in the tower or the king/Wardens had delayed the lighting intentionally and then decided to pull out his forces because he felt the cause was lost and even if they did win the battle, they would likely just delay their defeat with Cailan in charge.

I see his actions following Ostagar as a plan that was quickly thought up to secure his power and prevent the Wardens from coming after him for quitting the field, so he could face the Blight on his own. He is a ruthless antagonist that actually believed he was doing the right thing right up until the point where the Warden defeats and he realizes that the Warden was a strong leader, remember that he says he thought the Warden was "like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war" when you defeat him. Right up to his very end, he believed that he was doing everything for the good of Ferelden, and I really liked him both as a villain and the thought of him as an ally (I still kill him though, there's no way I'm sparing him and letting Alistair leave D: ) He represents, to me, the most dangerous kind of villain, the kind that believes they are in the right and will anything to achieve their ends. Zealots are much more dangerous than mindless monsters.

Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature.
-Flemeth

[chibievil]

well we may never know what he is really thinking when he was standing there while the tower was lit

and what he was thinking during the landsmeet, all we know is he thought it was for the feraldans

[CrapsterZ]

Well, I'll give you that, but I never believed that Loghain was resolved right from the bat to let Cailan die, that he only TOTALLY "accepted" that the king's death was necessary when the king proved to be foolish and naive (again, my point about being a poor wartime leader.)

If you take into account the time it took for you to recover after Tower of Ishal, and getting to Lothering ON FOOT (plus the fact that you would've been delayed in traveling out of the Wilds, since you're trying to avoid the horde), 2 weeks doesn't seem that implausible to have occured after Ostagar. There are definite inconsistencies, I will admit - Jowan having been bribed to poison Eamon, but between his escape and capture and Loghain's proposition for him it just doesn't seem likely that Eamon was poisoned for two weeks and prior to Ostagar (maybe he paid off Jowan before he arrived at Ostagar, but I think that is highly unlikely) I think his Plan A was not the one he executed and he did plan on helping to win the battle right up to a point (in Ostagar) where he decided the king was not going to be a capable leader during the Blight and saw that he was the only one able to do the job. Possibly. I still believe that when you first meet him he was not dead set on letting the king fall, perhaps undecided about the plan, maybe.