106 replies to this topic

[keithinhanoi]

@Lord Garon - That sound very thorough to me, though see what Mator says. Mator's made it clear that ITMs are to be expected at this stage, so I'm not sure it's something to be concerned with until after the script has reached a point where it's automatically removing ITM records to the Smashed Patch.

 

Regarding bashed patch vs Smashed Patch comparisons, I expect they won't be very useful until/unless the Mator Smash script can read and handle bashed patch tags.

 

I'm sorry that I've not been posting any further reports, but to be honest since Mator hasn't posted in a few days, I assume he's pretty busy ATM (as I've been too...)

[matortheeternal]

Yeah, I'm extremely busy right now.  I have done a lot of work on v0.8, and it will be getting released sometime soon, I just had a bit of a slowdown because there was an issue with how the jvInterpreter implemented record types, so I didn't really have a good way to implement a specific feature.  Zilav has given me an alternative solution, I just haven't had the time to implement it yet.

 

I do think there are enough tests with 0.7 beta-2 for now though.  I understand what most of the issues are in the current version and it really just comes down to writing the code and doing some controlled test cases to get everything working properly in v0.8.  That version is going to be a very large update of how everything works, so I'd recommend you guys just sit tight until I finish it.  When v0.8 is out we should definitely start testing again and report any continuing/new issues.

 

As I near a v1.0 release of a script I usually slow down production and try to be extremely thorough with fixing things and making a working product.  Everything prior to a 1.0 release is mainly me testing the waters and trying to identify the issues that exist and need to be resolved.

[Lord Garon]

@Kieth - Thx. Just keeping track of the ITM state for post-fix testing.

 

@Mator - Please, take all the time you need; late tomorrow is fine.         

 

Good luck with the coding.

[alt3rn1ty]

I have not followed this very well, but I get the feeling that to be as useful as Bashed Patch, it would need some kind of GUI so that records of specific types would be selectable per plugin ?

 

If so, why not just apply the same knowledge going into the Bashed Patch development right now ..

http://forums.bethso...pdate-thread-1/

 

Which already has the GUI

[matortheeternal]

I have not followed this very well, but I get the feeling that to be as useful as Bashed Patch, it would need some kind of GUI so that records of specific types would be selectable per plugin ?

 

If so, why not just apply the same knowledge going into the Bashed Patch development right now ..

http://forums.bethso...pdate-thread-1/

 

Which already has the GUI

 

Hi,

 

The GUI is in the works for v0.8.

 

This is similar to bashed patches, but is also very different.  I'm not sure what you want me to look into in that thread.  Care to be more specific?  I'm aware of this development and worked with Sharlikran early on during it.  What of the GUI should I look into?

[alt3rn1ty]

I didn't make my request clear enough ..

 

And did not know you have a GUI already in the works ( But really the request goes to anyone participating, not just yourself Mator )

 

My thoughts were along the lines of "if we already have a GUI in Wrye Bash, why are we re-inventing the wheel via TES5Edit, when all this programming talent and people understanding it could possibly be applied to getting Wrye Bash off the ground again"

Its quite a way off if we want it to be as capable for skyrim as it used to be for oblivion ..

 

 

 

Is this project going to be better than Wrye Bash Bashed Patch ?, and if so is there any need for Wrye Bash to develop its patchers for Skyrim anymore ?.

 

Sharlikran is having a stab at getting the patchers working for skyrim and having some successes, but he really needs help if anyone is capable and willing.

 

I have had a dig at testing but really the help he needs is beyond me.

 

I can also see the reason for the focus on this project. TES5Edit scripted to do the same task could envelop a lot more types of records in plugins.

 

So my request is - If any knowledge here can be collaboratively beneficial to both projects it would be very much appreciated if anyone has the time and know how to spare.

Edited by alt3rn1ty, 15 September 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[keithinhanoi]

I didn't make my request clear enough ..

 

And did not know you have a GUI already in the works ( But really the request goes to anyone participating, not just yourself Mator )

 

My thoughts were along the lines of "if we already have a GUI in Wrye Bash, why are we re-inventing the wheel via TES5Edit, when all this programming talent and people understanding it could possibly be applied to getting Wrye Bash off the ground again"

 

Is this project going to be better than Wrye Bash Bashed Patch ?, and if so is there any need for Wrye Bash to develop its patchers for Skyrim anymore ?.

 

Sharlikran is having a stab at getting the patchers working for skyrim and having some successes, but he really needs help if anyone is capable and willing.

 

I have had a dig at testing but really the help he needs is beyond me.

 

I can also see the reason for the focus on this project. TES5Edit scripted to do the same task could envelop a lot more types of records in plugins.

 

So my request is - If any knowledge here can be collaboratively beneficial to both projects it would be very much appreciated if anyone has the time and know how to spare.

 

Hi alt3rn1ty, nice to see you!

 

I won't speak for Mator, but you might want to read this earlier post by Mator in this thread that gives some background and reasons for working on this script.

 

Personally, I fully support progress, no matter what form it comes in. Helping where I can, when I can (sadly not often enough). I try to keep that "Cathedral view." Can't speak for anyone else.

 

But both these efforts require high level programming skills, or well, a lot higher than I have! Anyhow, that's directly related to their progress - and they are in two very different programming languages.

 

Will one be better or worse than the other? I can't say, and I don't want to. If both "finished", they will be different, but based upon two programs that have had a hell of a lot of time and energy put into them. Choice is good.

 

I agree about having a GUI, but I highly doubt the one for Mator's script will land up being modelled after WB. It seems at this point somewhat too early to start talking about the details of that, though, from what Mator has said so far. The main "engine" (if you can call it that) of the script needs to work as expected first.

 

Apologies in advance if I've gotten any of this wrong...

[alt3rn1ty]

Aah now that I have read that post #7 especially the part reference converting 13k of code into snakes ..

 

This completely makes sense. Especially if it can be done in a user friendly way eventually.

 

+1 for desired progress on this.

 

( and I realise now that cross pollination of knowledge gained is unlikely given that it would still need conversion .. Which this method promises to make .. well .. unnecessary really )

 

TES5Edit gets more amazing the more you look at it, I saw Zilav put a script together not so long ago which had a GUI for visualizing changing the weather settings, now there are also developments with TES5LODGen coming along, TreeGen, and now a scripted GUI to make a Bashed Patch equivalent which can access more records .. Pretty soon all anyone will ever need will be LOOT and TES5Edit

 

 

 

Mator - In your opinion, with what you know of this scripts capabilities ( eventually ) .. Would the Wrye Bash team be better off not bothering with developing bashed patch for Skyrim - ie keep in place all its previous capabilities for Oblivion / Fallout etc .. Just no need for Skyrim if your script will cover all of its capabilities, and then some ?

 

I know there is no competition between tools here, as Keith says "all for progress" - I just recognise that there is potential here for the Bashed Patch to become obsolete, and as such there is no point spending time developing it. Wrye Bash could still have its mod management range of tools, BAINs, save file manipulation, the ability to esmify etc etc its usual range of handy tools, just minus bashed patch for Skyrim.

 

So in your opinion, does Mator Smash have the potential to be a replacement for all that Wrye Bash could do in a Skyrim patch ?

 

As sad as that would be marking the end of an era, the better tool for the job should become the more widely adopted method.

 

 

Edit : Just thought of a potential - Would it be possible to launch this via Mod Managers ? - This is just a thought for the future, but what if Wrye Bash / NMM / MO could launch TES5Edit plus this script ( via command line parameters given in an icon or menu item within the Mod Managers GUI ) .. "Build MatorPatch"

 

Edit2 : Just thought of something which may come in useful at some point reference bash tags ( these particular ones are quite often confused ) Lojacks explanation of Relev / Delev Tags

Edited by alt3rn1ty, 15 September 2014 - 07:46 PM.

[matortheeternal]

TES5Edit gets more amazing the more you look at it, I saw Zilav put a script together not so long ago which had a GUI for visualizing changing the weather settings, now there are also developments with TES5LODGen coming along, TreeGen, and now a scripted GUI to make a Bashed Patch equivalent which can access more records .. Pretty soon all anyone will ever need will be LOOT and TES5Edit

Hypothetically, LOOT could be handled in TES5Edit as well. Possibly even better than how it's currently being handled. Honestly, I don't see any reason why load orders couldn't be managed by a TES5Edit script.
 

Mator - In your opinion, with what you know of this scripts capabilities ( eventually ) .. Would the Wrye Bash team be better off not bothering with developing bashed patch for Skyrim - ie keep in place all its previous capabilities for Oblivion / Fallout etc .. Just no need for Skyrim if your script will cover all of its capabilities, and then some ?

No. Again, Mator Smash and Wyre Bash aren't going to be the same tool. I have taken some deviations from the philosophy/technical approach of Bash, so the way Mator Smash will function will ultimately be different from the way Wyre Bash functions. Wyre Bash has proven itself in the past (Oblivion) to be an extremely useful and effective resource for modders. Furthermore, development of full bashed patches for Skyrim is well underway and should complete soon. There's no reason for them to halt their development.

In the end, I imagine my tool (Mator Smash) will be the kind of thing that used by more advanced modding users.
 

I know there is no competition between tools here, as Keith says "all for progress" - I just recognise that there is potential here for the Bashed Patch to become obsolete, and as such there is no point spending time developing it. Wrye Bash could still have its mod management range of tools, BAINs, save file manipulation, the ability to esmify etc etc its usual range of handy tools, just minus bashed patch for Skyrim.

It's possible, but it's in no way certain. Mator Smash isn't working 100% yet, so to assume it can work 100% and do everything just as well as the bashed patch is to jump to conclusions. Yes, all my plans involve making a tool that is better than Wyre Bash in some ways, but we shouldn't count our chickens before they hatch.
 

So in your opinion, does Mator Smash have the potential to be a replacement for all that Wrye Bash could do in a Skyrim patch ?
 
As sad as that would be marking the end of an era, the better tool for the job should become the more widely adopted method.

It could, but they're going to be different no matter what. Bash handles things using tags that are put on the files in the description. I may utilize something similar, but I'm considering not doing so. In such a case, a dictionary/database of information on files could be used for those which have specific edits that need to be handled in a very specific way.
 

Edit : Just thought of a potential - Would it be possible to launch this via Mod Managers ? - This is just a thought for the future, but what if Wrye Bash / NMM / MO could launch TES5Edit plus this script ( via command line parameters given in an icon or menu item within the Mod Managers GUI ) .. "Build MatorPatch"
 
Edit2 : Just thought of something which may come in useful at some point reference bash tags ( these particular ones are quite often confused ) Lojacks explanation of Relev / Delev Tags

I don't think it makes any sense to build a smashed patch via a command line parameter, but I'd have to talk to Zilav to find out if there are certain params that could be used to speed up execution or something. Again, this will contribute to the differences between the two.

I know the differences. Again, I may not be implementing things with Bash tags. I'm not sure yet how things are going to go.


Regards,
-Mator

Edited by matortheeternal, 16 September 2014 - 05:39 AM.

[Nyquist]

I am surprised Matortheeternal at how patient you were reexplaining things that were already explained in previous posts particulary in pages 1 and 2. Kudos to you for that.

I enjoy your approach more than the bashed patch one. Especially since those tags are so important that mistaging or missings tags generate wrong patches without users being aware of them. ╮(╯▽╰)╭

Edited by Nyquist, 16 September 2014 - 01:48 PM.