What Is Omod?

[DragoonWraith]

Well, "please" would seem fairly reasonable. Simply asking doesn't do any harm. And no, I don't think the modder is under any obligation to heed the request, but asking the modder is perfectly acceptable imho.

Well, as long as your polite about it, and don't spam etc, but that's common curtesy. Or what should be common curtesy, at any rate.

Thanks Stardaemon, that's exactly what I was suggesting. Ps and Qs tend to do wonders :)

Yes, I did mention that. Sorry... I'm speaking from experience - when I released my mod as omod-only, I received not one polite request for a non-omod (though after the fight started, there were those who politely offered differing opinions, so it is conceivable that, had these people seen my post before the morons and flamers, they would have politely asked).

[Marxist ßastard]

Now, there exists two possibilities here - he's right, you need to do it his way, and you're just talking and yelling, or, you're right, there's something he didn't see or understand or know, and OMODs can be made such that they can be openned with normal archiver programs/OBMM can be made to understand normal archives.

 

There's a third one, which you would know about if you had read the thread -- more specifically, Timeslip's first post, in which he states, "The reasoning for the layered format is simple - to combine the benefits of solid compression with individual file compression; You can pack a readme/script/screenshot/meta info into the mod and extract it instantly, regardless of the size of the file."

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. Timeslip forces the nonstandard second layer of compression upon OMOD files to provide functionality that isn't needed, due to a number of false assumptions about how people will use modifications:
   • That a large number of people will want to view the screenshots for a mod once it is already on their system, but without making the preparations for installing it.
     
   • That these people will store all local plugins in least storage space as an OMOD file instead of stepping down the compression, converting to a less processor-intensive format, or extracting the files outright.
     
   • That the inconvenience of having said screenshots open one fraction of a second later than expected by a small minority of people greatly outweighs having the majority of users not be able to open an OMOD and having sysadmins dedicate storage space to multiple versions of a mod.
     
   • That modders won't compress the OMOD itself to the smallest size possible, as appears to be the default for Oblivion Mod Manager.
     

...And the additional technical assumption that even if the second archive layer is completely necessary, it can't be done using a standard format.

Now, as regarding that little discussion / circle-jerk that you're having regarding modders' rights... Honestly, I couldn't care less about what rights you choose to assert. As you said, it's none of my business. If you want to do so, go ahead and distribute your mods as OMOD exclusively. All that I hope is that Timeslip cuts the fat out of OMOD so that what would otherwise be a worst-case scenario would turn into a situation that benefits all involved.

[silverstar]

Not to really add to the discussion, but personally I hate Omod. It's bulky, it's slow, and I really do find it easier to simply extract the mods I'm using, to my data directory. The only "complex" mods I use, to replace textures and whatnot, are DarkUI/DarnUI and a color map mod. And Omod is far too limiting to be of any use for Dark/Darn UI, because of all the levels of customization.

 

So that leaves the really simple, silly things like the color map mod. And you know what? That's what a readme is for! Amazing, isn't it? Make someone take 2 seconds to read something once, instead of having to use a bloated piece of code to do it, just so they can easily undo it.

 

Sure, it might be good if you want to see if your mods are conflicting, but that's honestly the only benefit Omod has. See, using Omods actually BLOAT the total disk requirements, because 1) You have to keep the actual .omod file on your disk, which is the compressed archive. And 2) Because when you install the Omod, it extracts the file to where it should be.

 

Well, gee.. why would I want to do that, AND need a whole, fully specialized program to do it, that has absolutely no other use, anywhere in the world, when I can just download the .rar, extract/install, then delete the rar and leave the mod in my data directory, or just toss it aside somewhere that it won't have to have a constant access location for?

 

And, of course, when I did try running Omod, it took about 30 seconds for just a color map mod to install, because it had to compare it to every other mod I had in place.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm just not the right kind of person for Omods, since I actually know HOW TO USE A COMPUTER. Unlike a sadly high number of users. If you can't figure out how to extract a .rar or how to RTFM(even when it doesn't NEED a manual!), or even to take a look at the installation instructions prior to installing, then please drop what you're doing, return your computer and go buy a Mac or something. PCs are too complex and usable for you, kthx!

[Marxist ßastard]

Well now of course you're making the same miskate that DragoonWraith is by associating OMOD too closely with ObMM. See my earlier comment about the magical pixies.

 

However, your points are no less valid when considering that OMOD, at present and with its use of nonstandard formats, imposes ObMM upon people who really don't need it -- if the second-level archives were to be archived using the same compression as the OMOD itself, manual installs would be much easier. Of course, modders still have the right to deny technical support to users who eschew the use of a mod manager, but with your... high level of technical knowledge, I'm sure you'll manage.

[wendelgrey]

Leave it to a Marxist to equate choice with imposition :wacko:. You've got the trademark Marxist vitriol down pat, too. Karl would be proud.

 

Which is a shame, because, like old Karl, you actually make a few good points (and that's saying a lot - in both cases - coming from a dedicated... err... OMMite and Libertarian) that more people might be willing to consider if said points weren't steeped in said vitriol.

[DragoonWraith]

There's a third one, which you would know about if you had read the thread -- more specifically, Timeslip's first post, in which he states, "The reasoning for the layered format is simple - to combine the benefits of solid compression with individual file compression; You can pack a readme/script/screenshot/meta info into the mod and extract it instantly, regardless of the size of the file."

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. Timeslip forces the nonstandard second layer of compression upon OMOD files to provide functionality that isn't needed, due to a number of false assumptions about how people will use modifications:
   • That a large number of people will want to view the screenshots for a mod once it is already on their system, but without making the preparations for installing it.
     
   • That these people will store all local plugins in least storage space as an OMOD file instead of stepping down the compression, converting to a less processor-intensive format, or extracting the files outright.
     
   • That the inconvenience of having said screenshots open one fraction of a second later than expected by a small minority of people greatly outweighs having the majority of users not be able to open an OMOD and having sysadmins dedicate storage space to multiple versions of a mod.
     
   • That modders won't compress the OMOD itself to the smallest size possible, as appears to be the default for Oblivion Mod Manager.
     

You make the assumption that people do not desire the functionality. Timeslip has tested this - if no one wanted it, no one would use omods. They do. Hence, the functionality is used. And yes, it is very useful. A matter of opinion, I suppose.

 

As to your response to my other arguement, it was rather indirect and I don't feel like figuring out a way to relate it to the discussion at hand and then refute it. If it is, in fact, a good point, feel free to remake it/clarify it, else I don't much care.

 

Not to really add to the discussion, but personally I hate Omod. It's bulky, it's slow, and I really do find it easier to simply extract the mods I'm using, to my data directory. The only "complex" mods I use, to replace textures and whatnot, are DarkUI/DarnUI and a color map mod. And Omod is far too limiting to be of any use for Dark/Darn UI, because of all the levels of customization.

 

So that leaves the really simple, silly things like the color map mod. And you know what? That's what a readme is for! Amazing, isn't it? Make someone take 2 seconds to read something once, instead of having to use a bloated piece of code to do it, just so they can easily undo it.

 

Sure, it might be good if you want to see if your mods are conflicting, but that's honestly the only benefit Omod has. See, using Omods actually BLOAT the total disk requirements, because 1) You have to keep the actual .omod file on your disk, which is the compressed archive. And 2) Because when you install the Omod, it extracts the file to where it should be.

 

Well, gee.. why would I want to do that, AND need a whole, fully specialized program to do it, that has absolutely no other use, anywhere in the world, when I can just download the .rar, extract/install, then delete the rar and leave the mod in my data directory, or just toss it aside somewhere that it won't have to have a constant access location for?

 

And, of course, when I did try running Omod, it took about 30 seconds for just a color map mod to install, because it had to compare it to every other mod I had in place.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm just not the right kind of person for Omods, since I actually know HOW TO USE A COMPUTER. Unlike a sadly high number of users. If you can't figure out how to extract a .rar or how to RTFM(even when it doesn't NEED a manual!), or even to take a look at the installation instructions prior to installing, then please drop what you're doing, return your computer and go buy a Mac or something. PCs are too complex and usable for you, kthx!

A stunning number of assumptions involved in this post, most of which I'm too tired to contradict. Two of the most notable are your assertions that OBMM/omods aren't for those who know how to use computers, and that a Mac would be easier to use for someone who didn't. I don't care to get into actual refutations of these points, but suffice to say that I have stated my opinion that both are completely and utterly false.

 

On the other side of things, you are woefully misinformed if you think that OBMM/omods cannot handle DarkUI/other UI mods. Things like multiple install options are exactly what omods make so much easier, thanks to the scripting that can be implemented into them. Again, it's late and I'm not really getting into it, but the fact is that you could definitely find omods useful.

[Marxist ßastard]

You make the assumption that people do not desire the functionality. Timeslip has tested this - if no one wanted it, no one would use omods.

 

Applying that same logic, let's assume that the Windows operating system crashes frequently. People use Windows. Therefore, people desire their computers to crash frequently and would, furthermore, vehemently object to an increase in the stability of the Windows operating system.

 

People also use mechanical clothes-dryers. These dryers have a penchant for shrinking clothes. If people didn't want their clothes shrunken, they would not use them. Thus, we should all make an effort to wear the tightest clothing possible.

 

Phossy jaw is a condition caused by repeated exposure to white Phosphorus, charachterized by an abscess forming in the jawbone, and treated by amputation of the mandible. The United States military uses white Phosphorus in its munitions, and employs munitions handlers who are thereby exposed to white Phosphorus, increasing their risk of developing phossy jaw. Furthermore, a consequence of jaw amputation is the inability to correctly use dental floss. Thus, only people who don't like dental floss have their jaws amputated, only people who want to have their jaws amputated develop phossy jaw, and only people who wish to have phossy jaw work as munitions handlers in the United States. In other words, all munitions handlers have an irrational fear and hatred of dental floss.

 

Let's also think about the people who live in areas that get flooded easily. Why, it only logically follows that since these people live in a flood zone, they somehow enjoy having their homes filled with water, being surrounded with chemical and biological sludge, and possibly drowning. Who knows the quickest way to dismantle a dam?

 

On a wider scale, there sure are a lot of people alive nowadays -- in fact, that number is increasing exponentially. However, anything that lives is going to die somewhere along the line. By your reasoning, this is not entirely unfortunate, for if they didn't for some reason enjoy death, they wouldn't be alive in the first place.

[Timeslip]

That a large number of people will want to view the screenshots for a mod once it is already on their system, but without making the preparations for installing it.

The solid/individual compression thing had nothing to do with screenshots. They didn't exist in the original omods and were only added later when people asked for them. A large number of people did want the screenshot feature, but how many of them look at a screenshot without unpacking the mods I couldn't say, and unless you've been spying on obmm users, I very much doubt that you can either. Given that the original reason given for requesting screenshots was so that someone could see what an old mod looked like before activating it, I'd guess quite a few.

 

That the inconvenience of having said screenshots open one fraction of a second later than expected by a small minority of people greatly outweighs having the majority of users not be able to open an OMOD and having sysadmins dedicate storage space to multiple versions of a mod.

Even at it's fastest setting, 7-zip uses 16mb blocks. At it's normal setting, the block size is 512mb, which is probably bigger than the whole file. That would take a lot longer than a fraction of a second to decompress. obmm displays screenshots in real time as mods are selected, so any delay at all would be unacceptable. And again, obmm's screenshots have nothing to do with how I chose to compress the data files, because they were a later addition. If I'd originally decided to solid compress the whole archive, obmm's screenshot feature as it is now would have been impossible to implement.

 

That modders won't compress the OMOD itself to the smallest size possible, as appears to be the default for Oblivion Mod Manager.

The omod creator defaults to high instead of very high because the very high setting requires over 1gb of ram, which not everyone has. Its dictionary size is bigger than the size of most mods, so it wouldn't often offer any advantage anyway.

 

...And the additional technical assumption that even if the second archive layer is completely necessary, it can't be done using a standard format.

That wasn't an assumption of mine. I'm well aware that it would have been possible to use standard archives. I just choose not to use them.

 

I originally wanted to use standard 7-zips for the data files, but there turned out to be no C# 7-zip libraries available, and the 7-zip dll works via com interfaces, which are not easy to use from inside .NET. I had the choice between either writing my own 7-zip code, tarballing the data files before compressing them or making up my own way of packing them. In the absence of any easy way to use 7-zip files, I choose to use my own way because I didn't need anywhere near the feature set of 7-zips, which are rather complicated and would have taken me ages to add support for, and because LZMA compressing a tarball is unusual enough that it didn't really have any advantage.

 

If I had to do the whole thing over again, the only change I'd certainly make would be to combine the data and plugin files. I may try and switch to 7-zips by using the command line tool, but it wouldn't be my highest priority. I'm certainly not going to do anything now that will break old omods. Maybe when TES5 is released.

 

And Omod is far too limiting to be of any use for Dark/Darn UI, because of all the levels of customization.

obmm's scripting can handle everything required by darkui, including all the optional components, (scripts allow user interaction, so you still get to choose which bits to install,) and while I haven't looked at Darn's original work, the bits of it included in darkui can be handled fine. The only thing missing from scripts which would be really useful for DarkUI would be a list of checkboxes, instead of having to display a separate dialog for each optional component.

 

See, using Omods actually BLOAT the total disk requirements, because 1) You have to keep the actual .omod file on your disk, which is the compressed archive. And 2) Because when you install the Omod, it extracts the file to where it should be.

An omod can be deleted once you've activated it, just like any other archive can. Of course, you then lose the ability to one click uninstall it, but you never had that to begin with with a normal archive, so you don't lose anything. You just need to remember to extract the readme first.

[Marxist ßastard]

That would take a lot longer than a fraction of a second to decompress.

 

0031 $ ls -l aiob.7z aiob.omod | cut -d ' ' -f 5  
437743
441807
0032 $ time 7za e aiob.7z aiob_readme.rtf | tail -n 1
7za e aiob.7z aiob_readme.rtf  0.55s user 0.05s system 89% cpu 0.665 total

 

...And that's one of the larger mods, using the "slow" UNIX implementation of 7-ZIP, with lots of stuff going on in the background, and on my 1.2GHz K7 with 512MB of memory.

 

I didn't need anywhere near the feature set of 7-zips

 

It's a 3kB overhead, at the most. :dry: Besides, that's the second choice behind just packing everything as a 7-ZIP in the first place.

 

I'm certainly not going to do anything now that will break old omods.

 

You said it yourself: the format should be considered extremely unstable until ObMM 1.0 comes out. Besides, you don't have to cut support for deflate just yet.

[DragoonWraith]

Applying that same logic, let's assume that the Windows operating system crashes frequently. People use Windows. Therefore, people desire their computers to crash frequently and would, furthermore, vehemently object to an increase in the stability of the Windows operating system.

 

People also use mechanical clothes-dryers. These dryers have a penchant for shrinking clothes. If people didn't want their clothes shrunken, they would not use them. Thus, we should all make an effort to wear the tightest clothing possible.

 

Phossy jaw is a condition caused by repeated exposure to white Phosphorus, charachterized by an abscess forming in the jawbone, and treated by amputation of the mandible. The United States military uses white Phosphorus in its munitions, and employs munitions handlers who are thereby exposed to white Phosphorus, increasing their risk of developing phossy jaw. Furthermore, a consequence of jaw amputation is the inability to correctly use dental floss. Thus, only people who don't like dental floss have their jaws amputated, only people who want to have their jaws amputated develop phossy jaw, and only people who wish to have phossy jaw work as munitions handlers in the United States. In other words, all munitions handlers have an irrational fear and hatred of dental floss.

 

Let's also think about the people who live in areas that get flooded easily. Why, it only logically follows that since these people live in a flood zone, they somehow enjoy having their homes filled with water, being surrounded with chemical and biological sludge, and possibly drowning. Who knows the quickest way to dismantle a dam?

 

On a wider scale, there sure are a lot of people alive nowadays -- in fact, that number is increasing exponentially. However, anything that lives is going to die somewhere along the line. By your reasoning, this is not entirely unfortunate, for if they didn't for some reason enjoy death, they wouldn't be alive in the first place.

I hope you simply assume that I am stupid enough to buy that, and that you are not stupid enough to believe it yourself. If you cannot figure out the simple, very obvious, very important distinction between those examples and OBMM.

 

I'll give you a hint - it's called choice.