48 replies to this topic

[DarkNinja13]

Well, it is logical when you realize that just because a game got an M rating, that doesn't mean that the mods for it have an M rating as well (think about it - what is so "Mature content" about a house or a pilotable boat or a horse?).

The ratings system by the ESRB (in the US) is not a forbiddance of any kind - and that is where a lot of people make a major mistake by assuming it is (the reasons a lot of us equate the ratings systems to protecting kids, is that is the spin they used - and still use, to show how good an idea it is). The only real purpose of the rating system is to give people a heads-up as to what is in the game and help people who are buying the games either for themselves or their children determine whether or not it is appropriate for them. Now, there are some stores that will not sell a M Rated game to kids (Wal-Mart and K-Mart are good examples - they won't even open the case for you if you are too young). The best use of the rating system I have seen is GameStop who, right before you have to pay, inform you that the game you are buying has such and such a rating because it contains this, this, and this - do you still want to buy it? I actually saw a clerk in GameStop do this and and it caused a kid's grandmother to NOT buy the kid Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas because she, like most people, didn't read the rating on the back. When she found out what was in it, she decided the kid didn't need to have it (and this kid was seriously pissed about it).

All it boils down to is your preference and/or comfort level when it comes to you and your children (or any child for that matter). I would let my kids play God of War, Grand Theft Auto, Oblivion, Fallout, and Dragon Age without batting an eye - I am okay with the subject matter and there is substance to these games. One game I would never let a child play is Manhunt, which is essentially a snuff game (the plot is basically you are in a prison whose warden is televising the inmates killing each other and you have to murder as many people as you can as brutally as you can over the course of the game) - and in my opnion, this game should have never been made.

As far as mods go, there are only a few mods I have from the TESNexus I would disable on my kids: Estrus, Basic Instinct, SexDarkness, EroBlivion, and CTAddAPose-Bondage Sex. Essentially, any mod is fine by me as long as it isn't a hardcore sex mod (and there are a few). Nudity, I'm fine with as far as children are concerned - the human body is a beautiful thing. Violence is okay as well - this is an adventure game where you have to defeat bad guys. Sex is not necessary - the kids will learn about that in due time (and notice I said "not necessary" rather than "not okay". So I don't think the Nexus sites should be marked as "Mature" because of it - besides, there's enough mods I don't consider as "Mature Content" to offset this.

The bottom line here is that it is up to you to decide what is and is not appropriate for you and your children. Not the game makers, not mod sites, not stores, and certainly not society (just turn on the television for the reason). When you concieved that little one who is now standing in front of you, you made an unspoken promise that you would give them everything they needed to grow up to become a good and decent human beings - you would give to them morals, wisdom, and guidance that would shape them into the people you wish you could have become (which is a parent's job). Know that as your children look up at you, they are looking up to you for reasons other than the fact that you are bigger than they are - and that is what being a parent is all about.

Now, if you want to leave kids out of the picture and focus on yourself, that makes it easier. If you don't want a game with gore and nudity - don't buy it. It's called "freedom of choice" exercise that freedom like mad. I myself don't feel like seeing some things, so I make sure I don't see them. I'll use Slof's mods for a for instance: most of her mods glorify the male anatomy (she seems to like men as much as I like women and I say "more power to her" ). But I don't want to see that sort of thing in MY game (freedom of choice in action) so I don't download them. Conversely, I don't whine about their existance either - I simply check it as "not my thing" and move on (so those who want to get those mods can do so freely). I apply this to all the mods out there.

[Vagrant0]

At any rate, having a website which can only be accessed by adults is nearly impossible without some sort of intrusive identity check or shady monthly service. It would also probably kill off most of the site's traffic as many users and mod makers are either under the age of 18, or would not willingly want to deal with any site that required such a check. There are also several legal issues here in that mods cannot be sold, and that many users would take exception to anything which suddenly decided to require some sort of payment for the mods that they had uploaded freely with the intent on them being free. As such, mods will almost certainly never have a supporter section nor have the same issues that the image share has. It would not only be legally questionable, but also entirely unnecessary and totally counterproductive. There might be limitations made toward who can comment on certain files, but that's about as far as things can go with mods.

The image share was, as already explained, an entirely different animal, and was broken in terms of what people could upload, view, and comment on. Many of the more graphic images were uploaded without tags, and were often flamed by users who had just created an account to flame that image. It's not that adult images have been banned, just that they've been moved somewhere that is free of the issues of someone just randomly stumbling across an image filed with what could possibly be called sex in some places, or where anyone "gifted" enough to know how to lie about their age can make an account, look at the images, and go off on how "gay" it is because they can see one extra appendage, even when it is busy filling one of some woman's many orifices. The supporter image share doesn't have either of these problems since it is in a separate section that is less likely to be casually located, and is populated by people who not only know what to expect, but who aren't about to risk their account by making ignorant comments.

[Isabelxxx]

Read the 2 last posts:

Everybody already know that many users are underage, it would require an incredible system, the users are in general a bit "users" (ejem) etc...

For me all these topics are useless, as well as the forbiddance related to age and others... but as I know that in a society this point of view is the point of view of a bad-tempered doctor I will offer a practical solution....

The point is simple, everybody can choose. The user is responsible of what wants to see -as soon as the web notifies it-. Freedom to authors (which should can limit the porn in the images related with theirs mods).

@ Vagrant0 :
My discussion is not related with the "image share" or any other variation (in the mods, the user page, ...)... for me all is alright because I don't use it and there are enough webs to upload stupid images or porn. A limitation in this case is necessary in practical terms for the management of the web.


And now about the web ( I consider the web as the web which offers mods, support, etc... the images and others addons are not included in my considerations and are useless here)

By considering Tesnexus a web which should be only accessed by adults the system is simple:

-In big letters a warning related to the possible content of the web.
It doesn't mean that all the content is for adults but it makes you be aware that you can see something related with any type of mature content. (notification, no limitation)
Children will not connect by themselves to the web. It's not a game for children; if they have it, it's because the adult consider it's right and can explore the web with them if the adult consider that some mods would be great for the game. (DarkNinja13 situation)
Adults from the existence of the human specie to XVIII century -aka teenagers- will connect download/ see what they wanna and will not they will not bother about useless considerations. ( It doesn't matter what type of system you implement)
Adults from the XIX century to present will not be bothered with useless considerations.

-Add a the mature filter only to non-registered users.
This solve the possibility of an user seeing something that he/she doesn't want to see.
Registered users knowing what they could see (see above requirements) should not have that filter. Anyway the option should be still available.

-In order to register the user should be +18 (or whatever the age it's supposed to be in the country)
Less hypocrisy, if a teen wants to register he/she can do it easily. It's the same than now, but in my suggestion the web notifies that the user could see mature content.

The legal problem is the free show of mature content in a web which doesn't warn the users about that, the problem is for the admin but not a moral or ethical problem. Already solved by the warn related to the possible content in the web for non-registered users and the requirement in the registration

-No prohibitions of any type related with mature content -except if the author wants to limit it in his/her mod- (remember I'm talking about the "tesnexus-mod-forum" and images within them -which could be limited by the author, not the web-)

The filter still exists but now the web differentiate a basic point:

• No limitation related to the content for the authors. They shouldn't care about differentiate what is obscene, nude, +18, +16 or any other thing.
• For the mass this type of content is invisible. If you want to see it, register. But if you do that you now that you could see something related with mature content. (the filters still can be activated by the user but tesnexus is not forced to assure that all the mature content will not be visible due to requirement in the registration; if an underage user don't care about that, he/she not necessarily will see mature content but... )

There is not too many differences, but a main point:

The responsibility is for the user, the web only notifies that part of the content included in the web could be consider only for adults and provides the necessary tools in order to protect the user but the author should not have any limitation in the work -neither care about ratings or classifications by ages- because the site is considered as a web with mature content.

[Vagrant0]

In a perfect world... but the world is far from perfect.

First off... ALL content which is flagged as "adult" requires people to be logged in to see. Knowing anyone's age on the internet is nearly impossible. People who are less than the age of 18 WILL LIE to see "adult" content, and will do so purposely if they know it exists somewhere. There could be a big flashy neon sign that is 3 pages tall, and people would STILL not see it, or not necessarily bother to understand what it said.

Secondly, There are two key problems with the assumption of responsibility that you mention.

A- That there are a handful of people who get their entertainment from browsing specifically for things which offend them, which then seemingly gives them permission to spew whatever hateful things they feel are important enough to say about the person who uploaded that image/mod. It there were more responsible users, then there would not be so many bans for flaming, harassment, or other things which accompany people finding something they don't agree with.

B- That while most uploaders are responsible, there are many who are not, and would have no second thoughts about uploading images/mods containing pedophilia, bestiality, or other acts which are legally punishable for simply viewing. Like it or not, but this site has to have some regulations toward what it can host in order to keep itself free from legal problems which would shut it down. One side of this is respecting copyright, the other side is making sure that explicit content is decidedly separated from general content. If there is a failure in ensuring that copyrighted images are not hosted, the site can be shut down. If there is a failure in ensuring that minors cannot access explicit content, the site can be shut down. Although Dark0ne owns the site, it is hosted on servers in countries which have some sort of legal system who tends to frown quite heavily on this sort of stuff going on unchecked.


The rule change came about because of both these. Images containing content that some would find objectionable were always being flamed, and the uploader harassed. Uploaders of the image share section were often being irresponsible and either uploading content which was too graphic for any site, or were entirely forgetting to tag images as adult. The image section also had far more adult uploads than the mod section, making it a constant battle in keeping ahead of tagging, removing, or banning for images. In contrast, mod uploads tend to be less frequent, made by people who actually care about the quality and content of their mods, and are generally more responsible. Which, yet again, is why the mod section is not affected by any of the recent rule changes.

The removal of SpeedBuster's mods was never requested, suggested, or carried out by staff, it has only happened because of an unfortunate misunderstanding of the rule change which some people seem to keep misunderstanding and keep on going on about that misunderstanding. Since the beginning of the change I have been trying desperately to encourage some understanding about both why the rules were changed and what exactly they relate to, and still somewhere there is something which is not getting through.

[Vagrant0]

To say it again simply, incase anyone out there is not keen on reading, misunderstands easily, or is otherwise still confused on the issue...

!!!THE MOD SECTION IS NOT AFFECTED BY ANY OF THE CHANGES TO THE RULES FOR THE IMAGE SHARE SECTION!!!

!!!THE RULES RELATED TO THE IMAGE SHARE SECTION DO NOT APPLY TO IMAGES WHICH ARE UPLOADED ON MOD PAGES BY THE MOD AUTHOR!!!

Edited by Vagrant0, 19 July 2010 - 01:18 AM.

[Isabelxxx]

haha Ok, ok... I'm already aware that there are legal problems and users are not always what they are supposed to be. But we are talking about different things. My suggestion is not related with the last change in the rules neither the images... as I have said any limitation in that aspects is necessary in practical terms.




My unique suggestion was the deletion of the requirement for the author to rate mods as mature content by warning that this is a web with mature content. A general rating -for the web- instead of specific rating -for the files-.

It's just logic, there is too much mature & non-mature content in the web to still consider that you can classify and rate all. By rating the entire web the content doesn't necessarily will be changed to more/less mature content -neither you need to care about specific rating- but you can assure that there will not be misunderstands with users/authors/hosts (at less that the host doesn't allow that type of web).
Considering this, then other points you have remarked (B) can be applied -my meaning of mature content in this case doesn't mean that pedophilia, bestiality,etc. should be permitted- but a general rating simplify the rules, legal problems, ....

For ex. there are mods which includes in the description:

WARNING! THIS MOD CONTAINS FULL NUDITY AND THEREFORE ADULT CONTENT! DON'T DOWNLOAD AND USE THIS MOD IF YOU DON'T WISH/ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SEE HOT NAKED GIRLS!

Ok it can be useful if you don't want to see it after registering.

But in the rules the requirement:

-(A similar warning with +18 content and the content which will not be permitted)

[....]

-Insure that any content that would typically be awarded a 15 certificate or higher in the US/UK film and video game industry is properly labelled with the “Adult-only” option when uploading files and images. Continued failure to adhere to this rule will result in your account being banned.

[...]

But the tag "adult content" &/or the mature content rating (?) (not uploaded anything yet, not sure if that exists when uploading the file or the rating is only applied when you use the tag mentioned) should disappear.

I think that we agree with this: if the author is not forced to rate the content & the user accepts the fact that he/she could see mature content (in logical terms) in the web there will not be another problem like this or any other misunderstand.

People who are less than the age of 18 WILL LIE to see "adult" content, and will do so purposely if they know it exists somewhere.

They will do it with the actual system or applying my suggestion so no changes...

[Vagrant0]

That sort of "catch all" solution is only a solution if TESN wishes to classify itself as being a specifically adult website... Something which I highly doubt will ever be wanted. It may not mean much to the end user, but such things are rather important when it comes to hosting, advertising, and what ads appear on that site. As Dark0ne appears to want to have a clean and professional looking site which he can then show off to prospective clients, employers, or friends, such a change isn't a solution of any kind, even if it did work.

Mods not being tagged as adult has not yet been a significant problem in that A) Mods can easily be tagged as adult by a moderator as soon as they are reported. B) The mod must still be willingly installed before any of that adult content can be put to any use, whereby it becomes the problem of the user for any content present in the mod. C) The number of mods which feature adult content is rather small compared to all mods which are uploaded. D) Most uploaders of adult mods know about the adult tag, and are responsible enough to tag their mods. E) Unlike images, mods can have their downloads removed, comments blocked, or their pages made invisible; the only option for dealing with an offending image is its deletion or silently tagging (something I'm petitioning to change).

That said, it is HIGHLY unlikely that there will ever be this sort of change to mods simply due to the fact that several members of staff, and a good part of the active community uploads adult mods, and are not irresponsible enough to abuse the system. I'm not Dark0ne, nor am I a psychic, but I'd say it's safe to say that how mods have been handled will remain the same, if only because the system on that end works and most people know how it should and should not be used (those who do not usually do not last long enough).

[Isabelxxx]

That sort of "catch all" solution is only a solution if TESN wishes to classify itself as being a specifically adult website... Something which I highly doubt will ever be wanted. It may not mean much to the end user, but such things are rather important when it comes to hosting, advertising, and what ads appear on that site. As Dark0ne appears to want to have a clean and professional looking site which he can then show off to prospective clients, employers, or friends, such a change isn't a solution of any kind, even if it did work.

Obviously if these are the reasons any suggestion following that way is useless.

Anyway -at least for rational people- the change doesn't necessarily imply the opposite of that image for the web -obviously because the content doesn't change, the mature content will be here with or without it- but a practical change, on the other side I already know that this can not be understood by any person related with hosting, advertising, ... and may create other undesired changes/problems.

So probably maintaining it as it is will be the option at this moment.



Related with the Image Share -I felt curiosity about it and just read the explanation by Dark0ne, now understood why there is so disturbance about it-, should the old images not allowed by the rules be deleted too?

Because being logical in the past they were allowed so If you start to explore images from the last, you will see a lot of them.

After 4 pages I'm right...
http://www.tesnexus....-1192397900.jpg
http://www.tesnexus....-1193583875.jpg
http://www.tesnexus....-1193583721.jpg
http://www.tesnexus....-1193584806.jpg
http://www.tesnexus....-1192500071.jpg
[...]

[Vagrant0]

Old images are not subject to the new rule, but can be removed from the normal image share and re-uploaded to the supporter section at their discretion.

[Jinxxed0]

If I were banned for something so small after providing high quality content for FREE, I would take down my stuff and never come back too.

Good job moderators. Maybe you should piss off the other well known modders.