88 replies to this topic

[Vorians]

I voted in favor of modularity. When I installed Better Cities, I used everything except the IC Market District because of another mod (which I highly value--Nexon's Armory) which places an Ayleid cask in the IC Market District.

You chose a mod which places a single container in a District over an entire District overhaul? Either edit the Nexon's Armory ESP to move the container to a new location, or use the console to tcl and reach the container through whatever part of BC makes it unreachable, retrieve the contents then disable tcl once out of the overlapping object again. Or retrieve the contents of the container, and THEN use the BC Market District (The Market District is the best part of BC's IC overhaul!).
You only actually need to access a container once to get what is inside, afterwards it really doesn't matter if another mod places a building on top of the container.

[andrewbroadway]

It's time to set the standard. CONGRATULATIONS! Your excellent design and coding skills are reached a new level and a new challenge.

More importantly, THANK YOU!

[sylar0712]

I voted for the separate esps, but after reading the comments from the first page, I have to admit, you're right in the way Better Cities need to be handled in the future. Sometimes we have to make a choice and these choices may or may not be cool for everyone.

[KarmaPowered]

Let me start by saying how terrific this mod is and how happy i am for taking the time to install it.

I would wholeheartidely agree.

Thank you very much for allowing us to significantly enhance our game thanks to the respective talents in your team!

To answer your question, one cannot disregard the advantages of a merged plugin compared to supporting dozens of different plugins throughout time.
However, if you choose this option, I would like to beg you to preserve a possibility to use Better Cities along with Open Cities (Reborn), which basically lead me to vote :

• 1/ = Yes, I prefer to use only some cities / districts.
• 2/ = Yes, but only one of them with some of the separated files.
• 3/ = I don't mind losing modularity for the Imperial City, but I prefer the choice for the other cities.

Anyone (like me) who has had the chance to watch these both one day in action inside the game just would have a very, very hard time going back.

For me, the REAL merger should happen between the best of both worlds, BC and OC(Reborn).

Finally, thank you for running this poll, so that everyone can share their insight on the question.

Edited by KarmaPowered, 20 February 2011 - 04:14 AM.

[MarkInMKUK]

I didn't vote, because my answewrs would have skewed the poll away from my preferred end result.

I want a single module, with everything in it.

However, on my current system, the full set of individual modules gives me a more crash resistant end result, so i *HAVE* to use that - this is NOT my preferred result.

One request - just about every alternative start mod adds the SAME ship to Anvil - could you add the ability to toggle on or off a ship in that berth please?

[Vorians]

It's a possibility, which ship in particular were you thinking about?

[Telyn]

I think you know what is best for you as developers. This poll isn't going to change that. It's looking from the answers like there is a right and wrong answer to the poll for you and most users. Don't feel you need 1000 answers. As developers you should take the mod wherever is best for you. Some people won't like it or will be unable to use Better Cities. C'est la vie. Sometimes we have to make choices (example: can't use all cosmetic mods even with BASH.). I think in your hearts the decision has been made, and I wish you the best with it and that it makes new features much easier to add. I didn't vote because I don't feel that my preferences should be part of the nose count. If I had voted...I would have voted selfishly if I voted honestly. I don't want to do that. I hope you get the 1000 go for it responses you are hoping for, but if not, there's a very clear trend already.

I'm still pretty new to the game although your read me would classify me between average and advanced according to the tools and skills you list. I am not yet running Better Cities because I am avoiding big sweeping mods until I have played the game through enough once to explore these areas Bethesda made first. That said, I have intended to use most of the Better Cities when I have done that, and from what I have seen in screeenshots, messages posted about this mod, etc. I admire you greatly. Again, I cannot comment on what I like or dislike about individual parts of your mod in play, because I am a "future user" rather than a current one. It is possible that I can give useful feedback though by expressing some of my concerns as a likely new user since you seem concerned with ease of use for new users. So here goes:

I have a few small immersion and lodging mods which I know do conflict with certain parts of Better Cities. I didn't know about Better Cities when I downloaded them. I know to you guys, it would be silly of me not to just give those up, but I am a roleplayer so I am reluctant to teleport my humble homes elsewhere, and I am also too new to all this to know how to move the houses, or change quests associated with them quite yet. I am currently learning my way around Wrye Bash. I've made plenty of mistakes already, but I'm getting better at it. I should mention there are many many of me. Steam and Impulse have both had incredible deals on the Game of the Year package recently and I am almost certain those deals will get even better in the lead up to Skyrim. It's their last chance to sell it to people like myself who saw the Skyrim promos and were inspired to buy what is available now while we wait.

My concerns:

1. I am not capable yet of making the modifications to the mods I already love, and I am not alone. Some people buying the game now probably aren't interested in modding at all, just downloading mods. You modders are being/about to be invaded by a whole slew of utter newbies because of current promotions. Solution for me: I could download the old modular version if it is still available then, but then I would never be able to upgrade it further. Solution for you: Merge, will make tech support much simpler. You can warn people not to download unless they are comfortable with Wyre Bash but you must know they do anyway. I've barely restrained myself so far.
2. Installing a bunch of modular parts is a little bit of a hassle but relatively easy. Installing a big merged mod is very easy, but for the new user, resolving incompatabilities that might cause would be much much harder than it is for the expert.
3. RP Concerns: It feels more realistic to me to add an area or two at a time because that's believable revitalization. I can just not go to those areas for awhile and tell myself they are being rebuilt or revitalized. Changing the whole world overnight, that's bigger magic than anything I usually RP. Please feel free to snicker at the RP concerns, but I imagine this mod appeals greatly to a lot of RPers. It's the kind of thing we love. Solution: I don't use the mod, or again, I use the modular version so my characters can play through the improvements gradually and it becomes a fantastic and integral part of their stories. That was the plan.
4. Practical concerns: Load order is really important to my game already. I think it is entirely possible I might need modularity to keep some of those little independent mods I love and still be able to use Better Cities. I could download the old versions of course. There is a pattern here.
5. Community concern. This one I don't think anyone has mentioned. If modularity goes away, there is a potential hidden cost to other modders. What if some person comes in now, late, with a terrific idea of his or her own about how to mod an area of the game covered by Better Cities? Then he/she finds out that users would have to give up ALL of Better Cities Merged to use this one city mod or else use an old unsupported modular version. I dunno about our hypothetical modder, but I would give up. It looks like to me that there aren't a whole lot of areas in the game that have not already been claimed by one or more of the biggest comprehensive mods. It's wonderful that the state of modding for Oblivion has reached that point! I'm completely impressed by that and all the work it has been for you and others. I'm just thinking about how hard it is for people who make new body types to get anyone to try them. Why? Because so many mods rely on the existing ones. I'd love to try TGND body, but I'm still using a body mod I don't like as much for compatability and it's a shame that's how it goes with mods. If you merge your mod so it's all or nothing...just please be aware that it's going to severely limit what new modders can do if they ever hope to share their work. Increased standardization has some terrific benefits you've expressed quite eloquently. However, the cost might be that the little modders have to fight over the pieces that aren't claimed yet because very few people are going to want to rule out using Better Cities as it gains more and more neat features. I don't blame them. I wouldn't download a conflicting mod if it meant I couldn't use any of Better Cities. How much unclaimed space in the standard cities is left when all of Better Cities and well known mods that are stated compatible with it are installed? Asking because I've been reading modding tutorials that say something like "We're going to build a house at these coords because Better Cities doesn't use that spot. And guess what? I already had a house that did. I suspect there are probably 10 houses that use that spot or more. You should be proud that modding tutorials now take this mod into account. However it does already make things a bit tougher for outsiders. Something to consider maybe. I can tell that you are people who have gone to a lot of effort to work with other modders, so I thought I would mention it in case it might be a factor for you.

Good luck, whatever you do, and thank you sincerely for continuing to support and develop Better Cities. Even if I end up not being able to use future versions, I appreciate it. I've seen a lot of wonderful mods that have been abandoned. It's great as a new player to see active and caring developers still here.

[MarkInMKUK]

It's a possibility, which ship in particular were you thinking about?

It's the one the opposite side of the quay from the one with the ghosts - I'd tell you a name but the merged ships hide each others names so it's a little hard.

I took a look in the CS but couldn't make head nor tail of what I was doing in there - too complex for my poor little brain.

[Vorians]

I think you know what is best for you as developers. This poll isn't going to change that. It's looking from the answers like there is a right and wrong answer to the poll for you and most users. Don't feel you need 1000 answers. As developers you should take the mod wherever is best for you. Some people won't like it or will be unable to use Better Cities. C'est la vie. Sometimes we have to make choices (example: can't use all cosmetic mods even with BASH.). I think in your hearts the decision has been made, and I wish you the best with it and that it makes new features much easier to add. I didn't vote because I don't feel that my preferences should be part of the nose count. If I had voted...I would have voted selfishly if I voted honestly. I don't want to do that. I hope you get the 1000 go for it responses you are hoping for, but if not, there's a very clear trend already.

Thanks for your thoughts, and I'm pleased that as someone who has not yet started using the mod, you had the sense not to vote! The poll is entirely intended for people already using the mod.
There is no right and wrong, there is what is best for us as modders, and what is best for those who use the mod, and generally speaking, that which is best for the modders should win out.
While I did indeed know what I wanted to do, and Ismelda pretty much said what you say (that if this is what I want I should just do it), I wasn't about to make such a change if the majority of BC users were against it, hence the poll. And I'm happy with the number of voters we've had, even if it is a tiny percentage of the number of individuals who have downloaded the mod. I've been looking for a clear majority-vote, and I've had one, so I am satisfied that the majority of people who are willing to vote would comfortably accept abandoning modularity, so it is now a definite choice for us to do so if we still want to.

It's a possibility, which ship in particular were you thinking about?

It's the one the opposite side of the quay from the one with the ghosts - I'd tell you a name but the merged ships hide each others names so it's a little hard.

I took a look in the CS but couldn't make head nor tail of what I was doing in there - too complex for my poor little brain.

That must be the Night's Scream. I'll talk with Ismelda about that ship.

[MarkInMKUK]

@vorians - there are several of the "Arrive at anvil by ship" starter mods, I haven't tested them all so it might be worth a check to see which ones use which berth. I know that with one of the mods the interference between the two ships was so complex I had to tcl my way out of a bulkhead to play.

One remaining thing - could the options menu actually indicate the CURRENT status of things like wine barrels and openness of cities? It's easy to lose track, and the prompt on the screen about what has altered is, obviously, rather lagged from when you make the change.