17 replies to this topic

[Praxius1]

That's certainly an option Praxius1, but for some players it's an unsatisfying one. There are people, like me, who play through a quest line (at least the first time) intending to complete every element of it. To us, the game hasn't been "beaten" until we've accomplished absolutely everything that's possible to accomplish in the game. We don't get any perks for it -- just the satisfaction of knowing that we've left no stone unturned. The next time through we may well decide to not do some quests at all (I, for instance, will probably not be repeating the main quest unless I'm testing out a mod that interacts with it in some way), or we may decide not to complete certain quests (like keeping Umbra, rather than giving it to Clavicus Vile). It's all a matter of player style. What is particularly annoying about this situation is that for characters who are being role-played with a strong sense of ethics, the player is being forced by game design to make an unethical decision and kill a person who is refusing to defend himself. There are already enough situations in this game (Borderwatch and Water's Edge, as just two examples) that will have such players second-guessing themselves. We shouldn't be encountering this in such ostensibly black-and-white situations like the Arena and then not being given the option of backing out. Heck, I'd be happy with a mod that let me throw down my sword and refuse to continue the match, even if it means getting kicked out of the Arena and never getting a chance to become Grand Champion. That's what role-playing, rather than just playing the game for its hack&slashability or the acquisition of glory is all about.

Well that's understandable I suppose.... but I'd suspect that in that particular Arena, they wouldn't tolerate you dropping your weapons and having a rainbow moment..... if I was making the script myself fitting the feel of the area so far, somebody has to die...... and if you didn't kill your enemy, and your enemy wouldn't kill you or fight back, then they'd send guards out to kill both of you..... and then your game ends.

In any case, I don't think you'd have many more options then what's already presented..... and changing the script, etc. just doesn't seem any better then not completing his small task..... but to each their own.

The first time I went into the Arena, I forgot to complete his mission and fought him at the end, then on my second character, I did the mission, only for him to get all sad and depressing, begging to have himself killed...... by the end of it, I just wanted it to stop, so I put him out of his Emo-misery. I actually felt good about it too..... natural selection after all.

Then again, I do play the semi-bad guy in the game as much as I can.

[Ferryt]

Well, Praxius1, my take on this is also based upon the nature of the Arena. Why is it there? It's for entertainment. Now, imagine yourself at a football game where at the snap of the ball the defensive team just stood up and did nothing at all, allowing the offensive team to just waltz across the line for a touchdown for the win. As a fan are you going to be happy with this? I should hope not. IRL, the defensive team would get booed and the victory by the offensive team would be considered tainted. There would be an investigation. Chances are the game would be invalidated on the records. The people who run the NFL/AFL/CFL/whatever are going to be furious that someone made a mockery of the league and football in general.

I see exactly the same thing happening with respect to the Arena. People go there to see a fight -- not to see a defenseless person slaughtered without lifting a hand to protect himself. It's not going to be a satisfying experience for the spectators. If one opponent refuses to fight the match should be called, regardless of whether or not it's supposed to be a fight to the death. Frankly, in this situation, there is no "fight" so that rule no longer rationally applies. The opponent who tried to throw the fight would be chastised, perhaps kicked out of the Arena forever. Even if allowed to remain, he would be stripped of any title he used to have and would have to start from the bottom rung of the ladder, again.

From the hack&slash perspective, yes, your approach makes sense. I like to introduce role-played realism into this game even when the game doesn't support it, although in this case you really don't have a choice in the matter because you can't leave the Arena until the fight is over. To be honest with you, I have one character who, in this situation, would have thought "Wuss Orc. OK, if that's the way you want it ...", and would have dispatched him without hesitation or a shred of remorse. That's just one character, though, and each of my characters is very different from the others, even if they are all built around the basic concept of Stealth.

[predcon]

On the plus side, it offers an easy way into the Assassin's Guild/Dark Brotherhood, but as I understand it, it was a bug that causes the kill to count as a "murder". Something to do with how he's using the "non-combatant/civilian" script. Naturally, Bethesda turned right around and fix....I mean they started calling it a "feature" and justified that classification by telling the user that "you killed someone who wouldn't fight back. That's not exactly self-defense, is it?"

[Ferryt]

It's not a bug ... it's a feature. How many times have we heard that? And Oblivion is so chock full of features ...

I hadn't heard that little story though, predcon. I've always wondered about that murder deal in the Arena when you have to kill him -- or revert to a saved game and then not finish the Arena quest line and therefore never get to become Grand Champion. For those people concerned about this, you won't get a bounty, though. He's the only NPC actually around to report the murder, so it never gets reported. Fortunately, this "feature" has been "modified" by the Unofficial Oblivion Patch so that killing Agronak doesn't attract Lucien's attention -- just for those people who might not want to have anything to do with him, although I can't image that. I think Lucien's very charming, and even cute, in a way. He reminds me a bit of Morden, from Babylon 5, who is one of my favorite characters in that TV series, just like Lucien is one of my favorite characters in Oblivion.

[Raithfyre]

Maybe it's that Vampire half of him. You know, turned him all wimpy emo and goth.

Kudos for making me laugh. I disliked this quest too, and the forced ending. Unfortunately, I can't really think of any other solution so as to still become Champion. I wish they'd at least scripted it so you could one-shot him. I mean, it just seems weird, standing there hacking at him, while he doesn't move. Especially for "good" characters.

[predcon]

Exactly. It's a testament to the player's character (character as in personal values and moral fibre, not character as in imaginary person) when he or she feels an emotional reaction to performing a morally polarized action in a game. However, like I said, my issue with the whole thing lay with the ultimately anticlimactic end to the questline. I mean, A), he was partly Orc, and shouldn't have given into depression so easily. And B), as such, if he was going to be suicidal, he could have at least fought suicidally, without armour or a shield, but just as fiercely as any berserker.

[Lehcar]

Well, IMO the idea that any human/vampire would be want to bang an orc is reason enough to be depressed.

But if you want him to fight you right, then just don't do his quest. He'll never know about Papa Vamp, so he won't go all suicidal on you and will battle you like a champion.

Funny thing is though usually my character is him/her self a vampire, which makes me want to say to him, "What are you so depressed about? What's wrong with being half vampire? I'm a vampire. What's so bad about our kind?"

[LordFrostcraig]

You could use a script with

player.IsWeaponOut == 0

which, when you refuse to draw your weapon after a certain timer, it toggles a new conversation saying that the Blue team guy forfeits.