782 replies to this topic

[Reneer]

I'm not registered on Elderscrolls.com, so my suggestions will go here. Let me say in advance that what I, being on the user end of modding, want to see is a fine comprehensive attempt to make interactions with the law and life on the run interesting. I don't care to use several mods that do more or less the same thing and probably conflict with each other.

Firstly, you should have a look at Azzer's "Bounty Reduction Over Time." That mod has three esps. The first one, just like yours, makes it so that bounties gradually drop as the character's crimes are slowly forgotten; the second one is much the same except that bounties over 4000 stay, so we won't be forgiven for murder; and the third one actually causes bounties to grow as we become notorious for avoiding the law. I think the second version is the most realistic, given the setting, besides it would keep the pay-through-the Guild option for thieves useful. Why bother paying if you can just leave? At any rate, could you add these other options to your mod? To take someone's good thought, when it's not going anywhere further, and improving on it isn't to plagiarize.

This wouldn't be too hard to implement (the 2nd version that you say is the most realistic.) It wouldn't be hard to make a variable for the Murder settings (or any others) that allows them to be remembered forever (though I am running out of scripting room in the Config script... something will have to be done about that soon.)

Secondly, here is an idea I tried to sell to Tiddles, the author of "Bounty: Regional," in the fall. He promised an update then, but never got around to it. The suggestion was to have "sanctuaries" in the game - within churches and cathedrals and for a few meters around the walls. In these mini-zones bounty would be calculated separately. Enter them and it is lifted, exit and it returns; break the peace and lose the protection. Standing by a god's altar was common practice in both pagan and medieval Europe (e.g. Demosthenes tried to hide from Macedonians on Calauria). I thought this would be difficult to implement in practice, but Tiddles assured it could easily be done. Since your mod features bounty zones too, I'm assuming you can figure out a way.

It would add quite a bit of realism - running to the church's door, where the guards no longer chase you (they should still be angry with you, of course, and not immediately leave), and waiting out. Perhaps the siege will take a long time! Then, when no one is looking, we might sneak out.

This is also doable, but only in a 'you are in this building and the Guards won't come after you while you are inside this particular building.' There's really no easy way to make any other areas 'safe zones' except for churches.

Thirdly, I'd like to know whether your mod will counter changes made to guards' inventories, their names and appearence? There are too many mods of that sort out there. What about default combat behavior (from the NPC Object screen)? Hopefully no conflicts.

On the other hand, perhaps you can include in the same archive an optional esp file. Call it More Sensible Guards or some such. I'll tell you what I'm doing to the guards in my game from the Construction Set - only for Cheydinhal at the moment, only to the town guards (in the town and in the castle) and only for personal use, so this isn't a plug for anything but rather an invitation. I mostly wanted more sensible-looking guards, but perhaps you can make it run deeper than that, down to skills etc.

1) I've diversified the guards, so there are no longer 8 clones of the same soldier standing vigil at various points indoors, or 1 cloned jailor for the day and 1 for the night. They are still spawns, but there is no helping it. I worked on the faces, too, with the standards of "TNR: The Imperials" in mind.

2) Service is now an equal-opportunity affair: there are women, Orcs, Nords and quite a few Dark Elves in the ranks, considering that the city is close to Morrowind. Imperials and men still make up the bulk.

3) Equipment varies for time and place of duty and from guard to guard. The setting is supposed to be Middle-Ages-meets-Roman-Empire, one can't expect uniform garb. So now some lug about basic steel shields, a few boast heavier armor, usually boots or greaves etc. Gate, castle and night guards are heavier-armed on the whole and carry polearms from the mod of the same name. Sallets (from another mod) are also commonplace. Day patrols, on the other hand, mostly do without helmets, have light armor and clubs for weapons. Jailors wear common clothes and a few armor bits to look impressive (who would idle away in there for hours in full combat get-up??) Indoor sentinels also have helmets off. And so on.

You get the idea. They look almost normal now, late-medieval instead of fantasy tin soldiers (look here for an example of what I was aiming at ). But I haven't delved into dialogue or fine-tuned reactions or touched other subtler things. Perhaps you can, after you're done with scripting?

This third option, though somewhat extensive, could be done. It would take some time to implement, and I don't have the knowledge to do much aside from scripting and changing armor sets (I don't really mess around with dialogue or anything else.

Finally, in the long run what's really required is overhauling Oblivion's punishment system. Redeeming yourself with cash or short prison terms is quite ridiculous... I've suggested elsewhere other types of punishment: forced pilgrimages to holy sites, the bigger the bounty the more dangerous; wearing for some time special clothes that mark the character as a criminal and guarantee bad reactions from NPC; for the heaviest crimes, an almost-impossible fight on the Arena etc. Nor should prisons be free - they never were historically. One must pay or beg on the streets.

Such, then, are my suggestions. They go far, as you can see.

Well, this would all be possible, but it seems to go against the idea of Oblivion as another world / universe. I don't want to simply replace the Oblivion system with what was done historically in our universe / world. What I was thinking of doing, however, was lengthening the prison terms, depending upon the crime and whatnot (though I'd need to figure out how long a 'day' of prison is in regards to bounty gold.)

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[temnix]

Well, this would all be possible, but it seems to go against the idea of Oblivion as another world / universe. I don't want to simply replace the Oblivion system with what was done historically in our universe / world.

True, true. But if you think about it, what choice is there? Everything we know we've learned from this world of ours, and when making up a fantastic one we can mix n' match, magnify some parts, reduce others... what else? To get medieval for a sec, man is something that is "created and doesn't create," unlike nature which is "created and creates." I mean, try to come up with a really original color... impossible. It's how well one can reshape the familiar that matters. Case in hand: if you make, say, pilgrimages and maiming the most common forms of punishment in the Tamrielic empire, won't that be original? A place where they don't stick you in jail but cut off your ears instead! Pretty ghoulish cool, I say, but - it's still taken from our world.

Besides, Bethesda's Nirn is a great mish-mash of things already. We've got fake Roman names, Dwarves - a mix of high fantasy and cyberpunk there, cathedrals - what ARE cathedrals doing in the Roman Empire??? - and priests there who can cure wounds, and fireballs, how original is that? Thieves and fighters and mages in very fantasy Guilds. Plus Nords - Scandinavians, Bretons - something Celtic there, Orcs... Not everything is second-hand, but boy, do they like to borrow at Bethesda Softworks!

Yet, with that much material to draw on, have they created a convincing system of punishment for Oblivion? I don't think so. All sorts of questions there: why equality before the law, if there are classes and estates, where does blood money go to and how convincing is it that the dead man's relatives can be bought off, who pays for your stay in prison where supposedly you do nothing, and why would they, why ever resist arrest if you can get, at most, a long prison term and never execution...

And, you know, it's just basically not how power works. Common sense issues aside, crime is a challenge to authority - that is what gets really punished in a Roman-esque legal system, transgression. Making up for the damages is the foundation of more archaic societies - eye for an eye, money for blood, assuming the family accepts... But it's a different story in a strong centralized state such as the Empire. The Emperor, in other words, just can't tolerate an insult like theft: what, will he let you open your purse, grin and shell out a few septims, then steal another thing there and then, grin again, pay again? Inconceivable!

I realize, of course, that Bethesda wanted to do a quick job of this aspect of the game - after all, we're supposed to be heroes battling evil or nefaaarious villains... never normal people in a fantastic universe, no-no... so jails, maiming etc. aren't for us either way. And they'd be too "dark," too. Gritty, as they say. Might scare the 12 year-olds. Gotta remember those! But if Bethesda couldn't or didn't want to make a believable, interesting punishment system, isn't this just the place for the fans to come in?

Heck, look at your own mod here. Didn't you tweak the guards to make crime and punishment better? Weren't they dull in vanilla? So you added a number of features; you changed the game. Good. But then why not take it a step further - boldy go where Bethesda has never gone before and reimagine the whole damn thing?

[tigershark13]

firstly. with the church idea that is good. because in Oblivion a lot of people are very religious and might get tad annoyed about guards hacking peoples arms off in the church. bt i think the other reason with the pay system is becaause it would make the game highly annoying if you were getting executed allot LOL. but i think that the gaurds should be suseptable to bribes. after all no ones perfect.

[tigershark13]

i am having an issue.. for some reason when i get put in prison and escape. all my crime gold goes away. also the ring never stays in the inventory. i would tell you how many mods i am running. but that would take too long. but i am not running the disguises mod. or OO. i am running MMM but don't see how that would conflict.

[Reneer]

i am having an issue.. for some reason when i get put in prison and escape. all my crime gold goes away. also the ring never stays in the inventory. i would tell you how many mods i am running. but that would take too long. but i am not running the disguises mod. or OO. i am running MMM but don't see how that would conflict.

The crime rings never show up in your inventory (technically there shouldn't be a message, but I'm lazy and haven't devised a system to remove the messages. The rings are marked as unplayable items, so they don't show up in your inventory.)

You escaping from jail and having no crime-gold is obviously a bug. I'll look into it. Are you using any Disguises (I'm guessing you are using 1.49a?)

[trevios]

I have an issue. I loaded this mod and used it, I disabled it to see what it would be like to not have it. And Every time i'd try to launch oblivion, it crashes now.

[hellrider]

Nice post Temnix, but I'd say the Dwemer are more Steampunk than cyberpunk.

[Reneer]

I have an issue. I loaded this mod and used it, I disabled it to see what it would be like to not have it. And Every time i'd try to launch oblivion, it crashes now.

Trevios, I would need for you to PM / post a mod list, since it's been a long while since I've had anyone complain that disabling the mod causes problems. I've tested it myself and had no problems disabling / enabling the mod in a save-game.

And Temnix, I'm not ignoring you. I just don't have the time right now to make a decent reply to your post.

[smilyman1000]

I use Oblivion Modular Enchaned R9 Law Enforcement Part 1 & 2 is this compatable (note: The OMOD Mod Conflict detector didnt detect anything)

[DLO604]

so if i use this mod will i still be able to use this one? http://www.tessource...ile.php?id=5524