110 replies to this topic

[ub3rman123]

To antonkr: I can see glass arrows being of use, but bows? No way, Bethesda. It can't possibly work.

Well considering that glass is pretty much like a metal but more durable and light why not?

Glass does not bend. It breaks and shatters.

As the Elder Scrolls lore has shown, many things which share names with real life materials are not the same thing. Ebony, for example. For all we know, Glass may even be a name appended by a people, such as how Orcish armor is. It's never specifically stated that that's actual glass being used on the weapon.

..How did I end up defending Bethesda's lore.

[The_Vyper]

According to UESP Wiki, Glass Armor and Weapons are made using rare metals studded with volcanic glass. Volcanic glass comes in many forms (including long, flexible fibers), so it is actually conceivable that a flexible weapon like a bow could be made from this. Ebony armor and weapons are also made from volcanic glass, so the same can be said for them. What drives me nuts is that we have to look outside the game to learn this.

Another thing that grinds my gears: enemy armor and armament. Seriously, why do they all upgrade at the same time? Is there some publication only available to Bandits/Marauders that offers the occasional special? Marauder Monthly? Bandit's Digest? I can just see the ad now:

"Tired of having flea-infested fur armor? Tired of leather armor that shrinks and chafes at the worst possible time? Is your iron armor starting to rust solid? Is your bow bent out of shape? Does your sword, axe, mace or warhammer feel like it will disintegrate the next time it strikes something? Well, you're in luck! Just fill out the attached form and send it in with your old armor and weapons. We'll upgrade your armor at half our normal price. But, wait! There's more! If you respond within 3 days, we'll send you an enchanted weapon and/or enchanted armor absolutely free! But hurry! This deal won't last long and supplies are limited!" Terms and conditions apply. Enchanted items subject to availability. Enchanted items not available in all provinces. Enchantments are chosen at our discretion. Offer expires on the 1st of Rain's Hand.

Another thing: Skeletons. Why do the hiss like snakes? Why do we not see any Argonian or Khajiit skeletons? And what about headless zombies? They moan just like their counterparts with heads. Makes you wonder which end that sound actually comes out of. And why are there no Elven/Orc/Argonian/Khajiit zombies? Do Necromancers only go for Imperials, Bretons, Nords and Redguards?

[Ferryt]

Hjorlwulf


You have to understand that with Oblivion, Bethesda abandoned the user pool they had with Morrowind -- namely smart "thinker" players -- in favor of a target audience that was nurtured on D&D and other hack&slash games. I think it was a mistake. I would much rather have experienced Oblivion as a thinking game rather than a reaction game, but we got what we got, and we have mods to fix those issues ... or at least many of them.

I had been wondering from my first play through where the standing army is. It all started to make sense as I played the game and discovered that the PC is supposed to solve all of the world's problems, mostly without any help at all from anyone in any sort of "authority". If there was a trained military then there would be no purpose in MQ for sure, and many of the minor quests would likely be taken care of by the local police or wandering legionnaires. Bethesda basically sacrificed any claim to "realism" in this game to the "unwashed masses" that they are apparently trying to get hooked on Elder Scrolls. It probably doesn't bode well for ES5.
WeissYohji

Why the abandoned forts? Same reason as there's no standing military. It's something for the players to explore. Once, again, we're dealing with one of the most contrived premises in video gaming, here. With the way Oblivion is structured, the Empire has to be lame in order for the PC to eventually become the champion and leader of just about everything.

One bookstore in IC? Well, to be fair, there's really not much room in IC for anything other than what Bethesda put there. Why? Because the little Midwestern town where I grew up is bigger than IC. Indeed, you could drop all of Cyrodiil into the state where I live now and just about lose it. It's hardly larger than some parks I know of (I'm talking about Cyrodiil, here -- not just IC). IC should be a huge, sprawling metropolis, at least as Medieval cities go, and you need only look at maps showing cities like Athens, Naples, or Barcelona in that time period to see just how tiny this center of an entire "empire" is.
antonkr


Glass is hardly more durable than "metal". It's extremely fragile, in fact, as Megatarius suggested, although, it does bend -- just not very much as a rule. This is why the bottoms of large telescope mirrors have to be supported and why "flowing" is a problem with the very largest of them.

To address the issue of glass weapons/armor in general (indeed the whole progression of "levels" in weapons and armor), I think Bethesda just did it wrong -- plain and simple, and it's one of the most contrived parts of the game. I have no problem with Ayelid, Akaviri, Orcish, Dwemer, Daedric, etc., weapons and armor being made of different metal alloys, but even using words like glass or ebony (which is a type of wood) with reference to armament is just ludicrous. It would have been sufficient just to have different classes of armor, just like in real life, ranging from cloth/fur to full plate, but, no, the developers had to get "cute" and in doing so I think they ruined a degree of immersion for those of us who are more into the realistic facets of gaming than we are the totally fantastical. Using words to describe the composition of weapons and armor that are taken from real life and have very specific meanings already assigned to them seems to be just one more example of how "dumb" the developers apparently figured their target audience was going to be.
The_Vyper


Even with wiki-backed lore telling us that you can have a metal bow studded with volcanic glass that is somehow better than a metal bow that isn't studded with volcanic glass, I still think they blew it. That example I just mentioned show just how logically bankrupt the whole concept is. You can make arrowheads out of volcanic glass, yes. Heck, I've done that, myself, in a course in wilderness survival, and they're "sharp as all git out", as my instructor so elequently put it. Unfortunately, they will shatter upon impacting any hard object. I still have a problem with metal bows of any sort, whether you weaken the structure by imbedding shards of glass in them or not. I know archery. I'm a darned good shot with a bow, and I'm not even talking about a compound bow, which can easily be made of metal components. The technical level of Oblivion, though, is far behind the capability of making a compound bow, or even the spring steel that could conceivably be used to make a metal "self bow". We don't even have crossbows and arbalests in the game, the technology is so primitive. In fact, I rather suspect the wheel has yet to be invented, since there are no carts or wagons.

A lot of it is the fault of the leveling system. If Bethesda had opted for a truly skill-based system, devoid of the Gygax Curse, they could have gone with a simple progression of armor and weapons similar to what transpired in the real world. There's nothing wrong with steel. It comes in many grades and there are many weapon and armor technologies which have evolved around steel that has resulted in various grades of "quality", even just using that metal.

Skeletons and zombies: Yep ... only human skeletons and zombies. Someone actually created Argonian and Khajiit skeletons. I'd like to see someone create a mod that uses them in the game as opponents. I suppose you could rationalize it by saying that, for whatever reason, only humans can be subjected to necromantic magic to turn them into skeletons or zombies, but I think the real reason is that Bethesda just didn't want to bother with creating two more complete sets of meshes and textures, thinking that nobody would notice the omission.

I'd love it if the game gave us a variety of undead other than the human-based ones. You think a human zombie is bad. Wait 'till you meet a troll zombie ... or a bear zombie. And wouldn't it be fun to wade through a cave filled with rat skeletons?

Oh, I loved the advertisement! Now, if someone would just send my poor, underequipped thief one of those fliers. Oh, wait. She can't afford a permanent address so she doesn't get mail. Maybe she can kill a bandit who hasn't taken advantage of it, yet, and use his, instead.

[ziitch]

I agree on the bandits/marauders with high-grade armor, but then the question of how to introduce this armor still stands - Leaving it to rot in some chest they plundered seems to be a little moronic on their part, and the sudden difference in difficulty spikes if you have the Matriarch/Patriarch only wear the armor later in the game. True, leveling by skill might have been enough, but then there's the problem of people that don't level with the player and often travel the roads.

I will say this - Oblivion is not the game where you can essentially dress in style and not worry that it would hold up in battle. In the end, if you seriously play the game, you're likely to look like a Daedra lord or a very shiny green knight after about 100 hours.

[WeissYohji]

I agree on the bandits/marauders with high-grade armor, but then the question of how to introduce this armor still stands - Leaving it to rot in some chest they plundered seems to be a little moronic on their part, and the sudden difference in difficulty spikes if you have the Matriarch/Patriarch only wear the armor later in the game. True, leveling by skill might have been enough, but then there's the problem of people that don't level with the player and often travel the roads.

I will say this - Oblivion is not the game where you can essentially dress in style and not worry that it would hold up in battle. In the end, if you seriously play the game, you're likely to look like a Daedra lord or a very shiny green knight after about 100 hours.

As for hawking this elite armor to bandits and highwaymen, maybe we could get the ghost of the late, great Billy Mays to do commercials.

I can see it now: "HI, BILLY MAYS HERE FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE WITH ELITE BANDIT ARMOR! IS YOUR IRON ARMOR RUSTED TO HELL? DOES LEATHER KEEP SHRINKING AT THE WORST TIMES? SICK OF DEALING WITH FUR ON A HOT SUMMER DAY? TRY ELITE BANDIT ARMOR! CALL NOW AND WE'LL SELL YOU A FULL SUIT OF ELVEN, GLASS, MITHRIL, EBONY, OR DAEDRIC ARMOR RIGHT TO YOUR HIDEOUT! IT'S A 1,000-SEPTIM VALUE FOR THE LOW PRICE OF ONLY 300 SEPTIMS! BUT CALL IN THE NEXT THIRTY MINUTES AND WE'LL THROW IN AN EXTRA SUIT OF ARMOR, ALONG WITH FIVE SETS OF HERCULES HOOKS, TWO ZORBEES, AND FIVE TUBS OF OXY CLEAN! THESE SUITS OF ARMOR CAN BE VERY HEAVY, AND YOU'RE GOING TO NEED SOMETHING TO HANG THEM UP ON YOUR WALL WITH! THEN YOU'LL WANT TO CLEAN ALL THE BLOOD AND GRIME OF BATTLE OFF. FORGET PAYING THE LOCAL BLACKSMITH'S HIGH PRICES! THAT'S WHY I'M OFFERING OXY CLEAN WITH ALL THIS! CALL 1-800-555-8906! THAT'S 1-800-555-8906! CALL NOW!"

Skeletons: Elven and human skeletons wouldn't really have a difference in their bone structure, except that Bosmer skeletons would be shorter. But why deny us the ability to fight undead Khajiit and Argonians? Maybe some undead ogres? If Bethesda really thought nobody would notice this omission, they're sadly mistaken.

To Ferryt: There's carts lying around along the roads, so of course Tamriel has wheels. But why didn't they bother putting in some NPCs driving some horse-drawn carts around?

[antonkr]

Hjorlwulf


You have to understand that with Oblivion, Bethesda abandoned the user pool they had with Morrowind -- namely smart "thinker" players -- in favor of a target audience that was nurtured on D&D and other hack&slash games. I think it was a mistake. I would much rather have experienced Oblivion as a thinking game rather than a reaction game, but we got what we got, and we have mods to fix those issues ... or at least many of them.

I had been wondering from my first play through where the standing army is. It all started to make sense as I played the game and discovered that the PC is supposed to solve all of the world's problems, mostly without any help at all from anyone in any sort of "authority". If there was a trained military then there would be no purpose in MQ for sure, and many of the minor quests would likely be taken care of by the local police or wandering legionnaires. Bethesda basically sacrificed any claim to "realism" in this game to the "unwashed masses" that they are apparently trying to get hooked on Elder Scrolls. It probably doesn't bode well for ES5.
WeissYohji

Why the abandoned forts? Same reason as there's no standing military. It's something for the players to explore. Once, again, we're dealing with one of the most contrived premises in video gaming, here. With the way Oblivion is structured, the Empire has to be lame in order for the PC to eventually become the champion and leader of just about everything.

One bookstore in IC? Well, to be fair, there's really not much room in IC for anything other than what Bethesda put there. Why? Because the little Midwestern town where I grew up is bigger than IC. Indeed, you could drop all of Cyrodiil into the state where I live now and just about lose it. It's hardly larger than some parks I know of (I'm talking about Cyrodiil, here -- not just IC). IC should be a huge, sprawling metropolis, at least as Medieval cities go, and you need only look at maps showing cities like Athens, Naples, or Barcelona in that time period to see just how tiny this center of an entire "empire" is.
antonkr


Glass is hardly more durable than "metal". It's extremely fragile, in fact, as Megatarius suggested, although, it does bend -- just not very much as a rule. This is why the bottoms of large telescope mirrors have to be supported and why "flowing" is a problem with the very largest of them.

To address the issue of glass weapons/armor in general (indeed the whole progression of "levels" in weapons and armor), I think Bethesda just did it wrong -- plain and simple, and it's one of the most contrived parts of the game. I have no problem with Ayelid, Akaviri, Orcish, Dwemer, Daedric, etc., weapons and armor being made of different metal alloys, but even using words like glass or ebony (which is a type of wood) with reference to armament is just ludicrous. It would have been sufficient just to have different classes of armor, just like in real life, ranging from cloth/fur to full plate, but, no, the developers had to get "cute" and in doing so I think they ruined a degree of immersion for those of us who are more into the realistic facets of gaming than we are the totally fantastical. Using words to describe the composition of weapons and armor that are taken from real life and have very specific meanings already assigned to them seems to be just one more example of how "dumb" the developers apparently figured their target audience was going to be.
The_Vyper


Even with wiki-backed lore telling us that you can have a metal bow studded with volcanic glass that is somehow better than a metal bow that isn't studded with volcanic glass, I still think they blew it. That example I just mentioned show just how logically bankrupt the whole concept is. You can make arrowheads out of volcanic glass, yes. Heck, I've done that, myself, in a course in wilderness survival, and they're "sharp as all git out", as my instructor so elequently put it. Unfortunately, they will shatter upon impacting any hard object. I still have a problem with metal bows of any sort, whether you weaken the structure by imbedding shards of glass in them or not. I know archery. I'm a darned good shot with a bow, and I'm not even talking about a compound bow, which can easily be made of metal components. The technical level of Oblivion, though, is far behind the capability of making a compound bow, or even the spring steel that could conceivably be used to make a metal "self bow". We don't even have crossbows and arbalests in the game, the technology is so primitive. In fact, I rather suspect the wheel has yet to be invented, since there are no carts or wagons.

A lot of it is the fault of the leveling system. If Bethesda had opted for a truly skill-based system, devoid of the Gygax Curse, they could have gone with a simple progression of armor and weapons similar to what transpired in the real world. There's nothing wrong with steel. It comes in many grades and there are many weapon and armor technologies which have evolved around steel that has resulted in various grades of "quality", even just using that metal.

Skeletons and zombies: Yep ... only human skeletons and zombies. Someone actually created Argonian and Khajiit skeletons. I'd like to see someone create a mod that uses them in the game as opponents. I suppose you could rationalize it by saying that, for whatever reason, only humans can be subjected to necromantic magic to turn them into skeletons or zombies, but I think the real reason is that Bethesda just didn't want to bother with creating two more complete sets of meshes and textures, thinking that nobody would notice the omission.

I'd love it if the game gave us a variety of undead other than the human-based ones. You think a human zombie is bad. Wait 'till you meet a troll zombie ... or a bear zombie. And wouldn't it be fun to wade through a cave filled with rat skeletons?

Oh, I loved the advertisement! Now, if someone would just send my poor, underequipped thief one of those fliers. Oh, wait. She can't afford a permanent address so she doesn't get mail. Maybe she can kill a bandit who hasn't taken advantage of it, yet, and use his, instead.

The funny part is. Glass is not the glass we see in our windows. Its some sort of volcanic lava (something like that) which is no where similar to what glass is in real life.
Same goes for ebony. Its not the wood that covers your armor.

[WeissYohji]

The funny part is. Glass is not the glass we see in our windows. Its some sort of volcanic lava (something like that) which is no where similar to what glass is in real life.
Same goes for ebony. Its not the wood that covers your armor.

Makes sense, but an obsidian bow still should not work. Arrows? Sure, they'd work. Blades and axes? Well, it is sharp enough to cut a horse's head off...

[Ferryt]

WeissYohji

Now that you mention it I do seem to recall seeing a cart. OK, so the wheel has been invented. We've just forgotten how to use it.

The funny part is. Glass is not the glass we see in our windows. Its some sort of volcanic lava (something like that) which is no where similar to what glass is in real life.
Same goes for ebony. Its not the wood that covers your armor.

And I suppose "venison" doesn't come from deer and "pumpkins" can't be made into Jack-O-Lanterns and horses aren't really of the species Equus ferus caballus. Sorry, but that "logic" doesn't work with me. If they didn't mean "ebony" as in the tree (genus Diospyros) then they shouldn't have used that word to refer to it, since they were true to the English meanings of almost every other word in the game.

As for "glass" in the Oblivion context I'm aware that it's volcanic glass. However, to say that it isn't anything like "glass is in real life" is misleading. All volcanic glass is "glass", in the sense that it is a solidified form of a glass-forming material that cooled through its glass transition phase without forming a crystalline structure. That's the definition of "glass" and all glasses share a number of common features including the fact that they're extremely brittle, very hard (typically harder than steel), and chip with a conchoidal fracture. Even if you accept the idea that "glass" weapons and armor are metal with shards of volcanic glass embedded in them you have the problem that doing this will significantly decrease the strength of the metal, making them less effective than their pure metal counterparts.

I've said it, before, but perhaps it bears repeating. Bethesda dropped the ball in doing their homework on a lot of issues with Oblivion, all the way from butchering the official lore to actually failing to play-test the game thoroughly enough to find the bugs that every one of us has probably encountered an hour or two out of the prison sewers. Not only do we have a dumbed-down game (relative to Morrowind), where lore was thrown out the window, but the game contains numerous errors (including internal inconsistencies), quests that when run together will cause glitches, uncompleted quests, uncompleted sites, unfinished quest lines (like Kvatch burning forever and the people never going back even though they said they were going to), and, basically, Bethesda handed us a game that I consider barely out of the alpha test phase. This is what it's like to pay full price for software so that we can beta test it, knowing that the bugs will never be fixed. I really suppose that's the one single thing that grinds my gears more than anything else about Oblivion -- they left it up for us, the users, to fix their mistakes.

[WeissYohji]

I never played any of the games before Oblivion, but with all the in-game books, it didn't feel like I had to play them to understand Oblivion.

How did Bethesda miss all those glitches? Did they just not care? (Wasn't Daggerfall also glitchy as hell?)

Why don't they even bother to rebuild Kvatch after you go through all that trouble to save what's left of it? There's no reason why it should burn forever! (With all the rain, you'd think that would put out the fires.)

Going back to the geography issues, you'd think Cyrodiil would have at least two time zones between it if Tamriel is supposed to be as big as Europe. I looked at a map of the world's time zones, and mainland Europe's got four time zones to it (Not counting Iceland). Ditto the lower 48 states in the U.S. Since Nirn is an Earth-like planet (Right down to having a 24-hour day, supporting similar but different lifeforms, etc.), you'd think that, say, Anvil and Cheydinhal would be an hour apart. Also, with two moons orbiting Nirn, that must have a weird effect on the tides (Since Masser is bigger than our own moon).

[LordFrostcraig]

This is why I play things like Lost Planet and Call of Duty. Oblivion is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (insert 2 million more 'o's here) glitchy. The Unofficial Oblivion patch may fix most of them, but it conflicts with almost any mod ever made.

What really grinds my gears about Oblivion is that they made every thing level with the player, and then leaving your allies to be little wimps you could flick and they'd die (quite literally probably).

Another thing that grinds my gears is how theres no eat/sleep/thirst/heat stroke/frostbite, or even BREATHING. You'd think they'd at least make the people look like they're breathing. It reminds me of how the one time I read Twilight the vampire person says he doesn't need to breath. Does... does that mean they're ALL vampires?!!??!?! lol.