Skyrim Society

[WizardOfAtlantis]

The similarities of Norse and Nord end at the aestetic aspect, and even then it's from a Hollywood perspective, thus the winged and horned helmets, which never would have actually apeared.

No, actually, they don't stop at simple looks. That is why the Nords are fighters, the Imperials are like Centurions and have their society based on Imperial rule spread out over all these different cultures (like ancient Rome) but in a fantasized way, and why the Bretons are seen as heavily into magic, as Britain itself strongly holds that archetype of magic and wonder for a lot of people (Merlin, druids, and it also can't be referred to as the "Race of Knights" because since the Empire is fantasized, the Centurions get the "knight look"). There is substance behind the appearance. It only gets extrapolated into a fantasy context.

 

So, the connections aren't as shallow as they might at first appear. It's only necessary to remember that they are fantasy extrapolations built upon very real archetypes for people, and with a new game, especially a new game built with a new engine that from the information they've already released is going to be able to accomplish a far greater gaming experience, it's only logical to wonder how far will the game developers take the design based upon the original archetypes and how far will they develop them separately. It's a two-edged sword, but that's also why two-edged swords are deadly: not because you have an edge "pointing towards you" but because you have many options (some of which might bite you in the behind if you don't work them well).

 

The winged and horned helms pre-date Hollywood. Their use became standardised by the painters of the Romantic revival in all things Germanic that happened during the 1700s and 1800s. Horned and winged helms did in fact exist, but they were almost exclusively (according to what remains, afaik) pre-Viking, and ceremonial wear, which of course had nothing to do with battle-use. So, the helms did in fact exist, their extrapolation however has been fantasized, much like the other material we are conjecturing about.

 

Just like Wizards' Pointy Hats, I might add, which did in fact, actually exist.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif

[Altais]

Just a comment about whether or not there are guards in Skyrim.

 

Since the player starts in a prison, (thats confirmed right?) theres probably guards and the opportunity to go to jail.

[Arkayjiya]

Yeah that's confirmed. I don't know where or when but probably in one of the todd howard video.

[Jermungand]

Just a comment about whether or not there are guards in Skyrim.

 

Since the player starts in a prison, (thats confirmed right?) theres probably guards and the opportunity to go to jail.

 

I'm sure the Legion can lock you up for their own reasons, in any case.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

The similarities of Norse and Nord end at the aestetic aspect, and even then it's from a Hollywood perspective, thus the winged and horned helmets, which never would have actually apeared.

No, actually, they don't stop at simple looks. That is why the Nords are fighters, the Imperials are like Centurions and have their society based on Imperial rule spread out over all these different cultures (like ancient Rome) but in a fantasized way, and why the Bretons are seen as heavily into magic, as Britain itself strongly holds that archetype of magic and wonder for a lot of people (Merlin, druids, and it also can't be referred to as the "Race of Knights" because since the Empire is fantasized, the Centurions get the "knight look"). There is substance behind the appearance. It only gets extrapolated into a fantasy context.

 

So, the connections aren't as shallow as they might at first appear. It's only necessary to remember that they are fantasy extrapolations built upon very real archetypes for people, and with a new game, especially a new game built with a new engine that from the information they've already released is going to be able to accomplish a far greater gaming experience, it's only logical to wonder how far will the game developers take the design based upon the original archetypes and how far will they develop them separately. It's a two-edged sword, but that's also why two-edged swords are deadly: not because you have an edge "pointing towards you" but because you have many options (some of which might bite you in the behind if you don't work them well).

 

The winged and horned helms pre-date Hollywood. Their use became standardised by the painters of the Romantic revival in all things Germanic that happened during the 1700s and 1800s. Horned and winged helms did in fact exist, but they were almost exclusively

 

(according to what remains, afaik) pre-Viking, and ceremonial wear, which of course had nothing to do with battle-use. So, the helms did in fact exist, their extrapolation however has been fantasized, much like the other material we are conjecturing about.

 

Just like Wizards' Pointy Hats, I might add, which did in fact, actually exist.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif

 

This portrays a rather narrow interpretation a the Nordic cultures. if I make a fictional civilization with pyramids that lives around the silt fields of a large river, they must be very similar to the ancient Egyptians right? Hardly...

 

Of course I am familiar with neo classical romanticism and its false representations of historic figures. Like the Nords of Skyrim, they are based on a superficial understanding of a much deeper and broader culture. A culture which goes far beyond being "fighters" and running around with fancy helmets.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

This portrays a rather narrow interpretation a the Nordic cultures. if I make a fictional civilization with pyramids that lives around the silt fields of a large river, they must be very similar to the ancient Egyptians right? Hardly...

So, tell us. Just what do you expect exactly from a video game?

 

Of course it represents a narrow view of Nordic culture... It's a video game. It's not a virtual representation of Wiki-Vikingia or some kind of pretence at a history lesson. You're taking your analogies to extreme levels (there's pyramids so it's Egypt) to try and prove your point. The Nords are obviously based on the Viking era culture. If you want to try and deny that, go ahead, but that's pretty futile. Despite what you might think, it is not a fallacy. A fallacy means that a relationship is false, qualitatively false, and that no correct inferences can be made. This is obviously not the case. Everyone can see that there is a relationship between the Nords and the Norse.

 

What we are talking about here is How Much. Your attempts to ridicule that by coming into this discussion with the radical denial of any and all justifiable connections ("fallacy") are rather ungrounded. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/rolleyes.gif

 

 

So, what exactly is your point, really? That this whole thread is unjustified because since the Nords aren't Norse-speaking Scandinavians we can't extrapolate issues for our own pleasure? Of course we can. Example in point. One might think, well the game is going to be set in Skyrim, the land of the obviously Viking-inspired Nords, then what else might we expect to see? Giants? Trolls? Dragons? Duels?

 

And you'd be right. Hypothesis tested and working.

 

Since they're in Skyrim, now there is the inclusion of other aspects of Nordic mythology and folklore, due to the inclusion of undead/draughr, trolls, giants and dragons but is that too shallow as well, since we...what? Since we see them? Video games are visual media. "Seeing stuff" is very important. If you, personally, want to have more substance than that--and by the way, that is exactly what we are talking about--we either have to wail until everybody speaks Norse in the game, there is no Empire, the Nine Divines don't exist, and we get to virtually celebrate a blot to Thor, at which point then we're all playing another game...OR we discuss what we like, don't like, and would like to change accordingly and then mod the Hel out of it, just like we're doing the first steps of now.

 

We can't pretend too much. No Odhinn, no Thor, no Midgard serpent. No oath rings (probably), no blots to the Aesire and Vanir (though maybe to the TES gods), not a lot of things, and that's all right.

 

It's a game, not a history lesson, but to deny all such connections between the Nords and the Norse as false or superficial leaves one wondering exactly what kind of an experience you expect from The Elder Scrolls V.

[arntey]

It's a game, not a history lesson, but to deny all such connections between the Nords and the Norse as false or superficial leaves one wondering exactly what kind of an experience you expect from The Elder Scrolls V.

 

you know what? .... I'M BEGINNING TO LIKE YOU WIZOFATLANTIS :thumbsup: (in a non-gay way) :laugh: hahahaha

Edited January 16, 2011 by arntey

[Fatalmasterpiece]

This portrays a rather narrow interpretation a the Nordic cultures. if I make a fictional civilization with pyramids that lives around the silt fields of a large river, they must be very similar to the ancient Egyptians right? Hardly...

So, tell us. Just what do you expect exactly from a video game?

 

Of course it represents a narrow view of Nordic culture... It's a video game. It's not a virtual representation of Wiki-Vikingia or some kind of pretence at a history lesson. You're taking your analogies to extreme levels (there's pyramids so it's Egypt) to try and prove your point. The Nords are obviously based on the Viking era culture. If you want to try and deny that, go ahead, but that's pretty futile. Despite what you might think, it is not a fallacy. A fallacy means that a relationship is false, qualitatively false, and that no correct inferences can be made. This is obviously not the case. Everyone can see that there is a relationship between the Nords and the Norse.

 

What we are talking about here is How Much. Your attempts to ridicule that by coming into this discussion with the radical denial of any and all justifiable connections ("fallacy") are rather ungrounded. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/rolleyes.gif

 

 

So, what exactly is your point, really? That this whole thread is unjustified because since the Nords aren't Norse-speaking Scandinavians we can't extrapolate issues for our own pleasure? Of course we can. Example in point. One might think, well the game is going to be set in Skyrim, the land of the obviously Viking-inspired Nords, then what else might we expect to see? Giants? Trolls? Dragons? Duels?

 

And you'd be right. Hypothesis tested and working.

 

Since they're in Skyrim, now there is the inclusion of other aspects of Nordic mythology and folklore, due to the inclusion of undead/draughr, trolls, giants and dragons but is that too shallow as well, since we...what? Since we see them? Video games are visual media. "Seeing stuff" is very important. If you, personally, want to have more substance than that--and by the way, that is exactly what we are talking about--we either have to wail until everybody speaks Norse in the game, there is no Empire, the Nine Divines don't exist, and we get to virtually celebrate a blot to Thor, at which point then we're all playing another game...OR we discuss what we like, don't like, and would like to change accordingly and then mod the Hel out of it, just like we're doing the first steps of now.

 

We can't pretend too much. No Odhinn, no Thor, no Midgard serpent. No oath rings (probably), no blots to the Aesire and Vanir (though maybe to the TES gods), not a lot of things, and that's all right.

 

It's a game, not a history lesson, but to deny all such connections between the Nords and the Norse as false or superficial leaves one wondering exactly what kind of an experience you expect from The Elder Scrolls V.

 

Actually, a lot can be expected of a video game. A video game is just a compilation of many media types into one, literary, cinema, graphic design, illustration, animation, theatrical, musical... That's like saying why should I expect a film about Vikings to be historicaly based. There's no reason it cannot be. I expect a lot from video games, which is why I enjoy Bethesda games. They deliver.

 

There is no reason for instance you could not create a video game entirely and authenticly based upon the Poetic Edda and have it be a decent representation of some Norse beliefs and culture.

 

I'll just have to educate you as to the real meaning and application of the word fallacy used in this scenario.

 

Fallacy –noun, plural -cies.

1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.: That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.

2. a misleading or unsound argument.

3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.

4. Logic . any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.

5. Obsolete

 

Firstly, your interpretation of the word is incorrect. It means more than "that a relationship is false". In this instance it means that a relationship is misleading, or unsound, which is it. Take for instance the original poster's implication that since the Norse people had no unified system of civil and criminal justice, than Skyrim, being inhabited by Nords must not as well. This leads back to my point about the pyramids. One could infer than if a fictional society has pyramids, they must mummify their dead, because the Egyptions did that and they also had pyramids. You see now why this is a fallacy of logic? Because there is one similarity, it does not guarentee more.

 

Furthermore, you could remove the image of the Norse from the Norse, and give them different weapons and attire, which are functionaly the same but different artisticly, and they could still be the Norse. They could still honor the Aesir, believe they would cross bifröst into the realm of the Asgard where they would await Ragnarök etc etc etc. However, if you were to take away that culture, those beliefs and the history of the people, only then would they cease to be the Norse. These things are what make them who they are. And it is without these things that make the Nords only similar in apearence. To believe the similarities go further is.... a fallacy :thumbsup:

 

I really do hope you are able to see my point, though it differs from your opinion it isn't a very difficult concept to understand. However, it doesn't seem to be getting through very well to you. If you need further explanation I would be happy to simplify.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Dude, I understood your point to begin with. Get off your High Horse. Adding layers to the definition of a word doesn't change at all the essence of it such as I pointed out (arguments, logic, beliefs are relationships, in this case false...really not too hard to figure out that I summed up in a few words what you quoted many for).

 

As to the rest of what you wrote...you can speak as many words as you want, but you're not saying anything differently. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/no.gif

 

You for some reason think you're misunderstood. You are not. It's that some people don't agree with you, and/or they want to talk about ideas contrary to yours regardless.

 

You understand the nature of a discussion thread, right? People have an idea that they want to talk about. You want to say something contrary, fine. Just don't keep going on like "nobody gets it" just because people don't all jump on your longship. Zaldir already stated pages ago in a very nice way everything potentially positive you might have had to say, which you didn't because you came across all negative and high-handed.

 

You can "simplify it" for me? You really think a lot of yourself. Once again, you're confusing understanding with agreement. It's a common problem with people that think too much of their own opinion.

 

For the record, I do happen to agree with a lot of the ideas that you said, actually, but it just has to be in another context (i.e. another thread). Your problem, however, is that you are entirely too arrogant, you're not really contributing to the discussion imo, and you seem to be spending all of your time trying to show how this entire thread is unmerited and false...and how people like me are too stupid to grasp your massive intellect.

 

These discussion threads are for positive talk about the OP's point. If you want to talk about a more historically accurate video game, then I suggest that maybe you start a new discussion somewhere else. I would like to read it, in fact. This discussion, however, is about TES V, which is about Nords and not Norse (though one comes from the other, whether you like it or not), and the fact that they like to take matters into their own hands like Real Men do. Or did at least, before being a pansy became the only thing that was socially acceptable.

 

Which, back on topic, is something I would like to continue talking about as I've wasted enough time.

 

Kendo 2's idea of Outlaw Points was pretty cool how it could work with faction play. FO: NV had the beginnings of some nice faction play. The other side of outlaw points could be some kind of system that adds reputation to your char like performing quests does, so that the more duels you fight, the more famous you are, the better deals you get from merchants, pretty much the flip-side of Outlaw Points. I get annoyed when no one in the game seems to realize who my character is regardless of how many dungeons I empty, just because I didn't save Peasant X's dog from the local sewer.

 

Ah, faction play could reach really dynamic levels with duels!

[keastkannegaard]

What is it you actually are discussing? How "historical correct" the nords are to the norse? Or who can fill a page with most words?:S