eni819 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Disclaimer: I'm not a modding guru so this is more of a layman's Public Service Announcement. I'll use a few technical terms (which may be the wrong ones), but hopefully this will help shed some light on an on-going issue for people using crafting mods. TL;DR: Don't use a lot of big crafting mods. If any of you are like me and like to build massive settlements and have the ability to craft everything imaginable, then you've run into a frustrating problem. Fallout 4 has a limit when it comes to crafting menus and objects. This includes both settlement workshop menus as well as crafting station menus. Depending on who you ask the general opinion is that too many keywords and categories cause mod conflicts that flat out limit how many crafting mods you can use without issue. That issue being: missing objects, missing menus, category name overwrites, and probably a few others I haven't experienced. Various fixes have been made and proposed, but like all Bethesda games your load order is a big factor. Until we get the GECK or someone manages to stumble on what exactly is the cause of the limit, we all basically have a choice: prioritize which crafting mods you want the most and stop adding more once you hit the "limit" and you start missing objects. I'd like to share a basic load order for, strictly, my crafting mods to give an example. I've highlight settlement specific mods in orange, item-crafting specific mods in cyan, and combination mods in green. (I apologize if these colors don't show properly on your screen). =================================================Fallout4.esmHomemaker.esmHomemaker - Unlocked Institute Objects.espWorsins-Immersive-Garage-T45-Bundle.espWorsins-Immersive-Garage-T60-Bundle.espWorsins-Immersive-Garage-X01-Bundle.espDDP_Elevators_mark1.espDDP_Bridge_mark1.espDDP_Ramps_mark1.espSummonerOnlyBots.espOCDecorator.espAlternateSettlements.espALTSET-OCD-CompatabilityPatch.espArmorsmith Extended.espLegendaryModification.espLegendaryModification2LM.espLegendaryModificationCSA.espLegendaryModificationMisc.espCraftable Armor Size.espSettle-SRR.espExpandedSettlementBuildings.espEferasShoulderBag.espCrafting Workbench.espCrafting Workbenches - Ammo.espCrafting Workbenches - Ammo Special.espCrafting Workbenches - Power Armor.espCrafting Workbenches - Pre War and Manufactured.espEli_ArmourCollection.espArmorsmith Elianora Extended.esp================================================= Using this current setup with this load order results in my settlement building menus to be flawless. No missing menus, no missing objects. I do, however, have item-crafting menu glitches were some categories are overwritten by another mod (I find this annoying, but not game breaking in any way since all the objects I want to craft are still there). Most every mod in this list is at its current release version as of the moment I'm writing this, and different versions can change results drastically. Just as drastically as incorrect installation procedures (ALWAYS, ALWAYS READ INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS!) My hope is that this issue is resolved sooner than later, but until then I hope this post can shed some light for people new to modding, or just don't know why their mods are "broken." Best of luck to everyone out there and a big thanks to all the modders who make games more enjoyable for the rest of us! :nuke: :kiss: :nuke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcface Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I know I already sent you this via private message but this is fantastic information to be sharing. Finding that butter zone is always tricky and having a "working load order" is great to be sharing with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdanzel Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Thank you so much for making this! It'll be great to refer users who have this problem to. And like mcface said, this must have been quite tricky to achieve so kudos for your effort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eni819 Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 Technical Update: I counted the number of workshop menu categories I currently have (counting both vanilla and mod added menus) and added more mods using various load orders until I hit what appears to be the limit... 200. Once 200 has been exceeded everything just goes bonkers in a variety of different ways depending which mods you use and which order you have them in. This magic 200 number may not be the case for everyone in every situation, but it at least gives a rough idea of what we're dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcface Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Technical Update: I counted the number of workshop menu categories I currently have (counting both vanilla and mod added menus) and added more mods using various load orders until I hit what appears to be the limit... 200. Once 200 has been exceeded everything just goes bonkers in a variety of different ways depending which mods you use and which order you have them in. This magic 200 number may not be the case for everyone in every situation, but it at least gives a rough idea of what we're dealing with. Nice update! I'm curious, I did some rough counting and had a similar number, but did you include the workbench menus? An easy "menu" to overlook. 200 is a nice round number to land on but I have a feeling it might be 225? Could be wrong. My counting was sloppy and done in complete frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eni819 Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) Nice update! I'm curious, I did some rough counting and had a similar number, but did you include the workbench menus? An easy "menu" to overlook. 200 is a nice round number to land on but I have a feeling it might be 225? Could be wrong. My counting was sloppy and done in complete frustration. That 200 didn't include workbench menus... I just took a look at those menus and I had 14 distinct categories (the 10 vanilla ones and 4 from mods) and an additional 7 categories with the wrong name that had multiple menu items merged into them. Disabling a settlement workshop mod that had a total of 54 menus resulted in my workbench menus changing to a total of 54 distinct categories (with 10 vanillas and 44 from mods) with 3 using wrong names and merged items. I then removed all workbench mods and managed to squeeze another 6 settlement menus into my game, that I wasn't able to before (this may have been a load-order issue). I then re-enabled all workbench mods and 3 settlement menu's popped out (I assume this is because it enabled brand new workbenches and the game had to take menu space from the overall pool to have at least 1 menu per bench). So, although we have a relationship between menus across the two system, they don't match up 1 for 1. It appears that settlement menus take priority in the game, but even when workbench menus get all bunched up they handle it better by simple merging objects into a single category per bench if needed. TL;DR:We have about 200 menus to use that get split between all crafting systems (vanilla menus follow their own rules to an extent and I'm not counting them).Custom workbenches are required to have 1 menu at a minimum, otherwise settlement building has priority over menu usage.Workbenches seem to be more bug proof with dealing with menu conflicts possibly due to that 1 menu requirement.If you want to maximize settlement building mods, put them before all workbench mods. Edited December 29, 2015 by eni819 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyInBlack Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Whatever limits there are, someone should switch them off please! It's so annoying to be limited to such an extreme while 'being forced' to install a huge number of mods to get all the pieces 'you need' for the building you have in mind. By the way: It's as annoying that every modder uses his own menu style which causes conflicts and/or makes stuff hard to find. There should be a modder council to define some rules for compatibility and organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eni819 Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 Whatever limits there are, someone should switch them off please! It's so annoying to be limited to such an extreme while 'being forced' to install a huge number of mods to get all the pieces 'you need' for the building you have in mind. By the way: It's as annoying that every modder uses his own menu style which causes conflicts and/or makes stuff hard to find. There should be a modder council to define some rules for compatibility and organisation. It seems like Bethesda may have allocated a single byte (255) to hold the keywords for menus and such, with some stuff dedicated to vanilla and behind the scenes stuff. This would be rather insulting if Bethesda thought that's all we'd need... As for a "modder council", there are a number of modders who have been working together trying to alleviate this problem (some have already made or changed their mods to have complete compatibility) but it would require a load of work to actually accomplish this on a grand scale and there's still some hope that this limit can be bypassed or changed before everyone goes and re-organizes their mods. And then there are modders who just don't care and refuse to help at all... Yes, I know who you are... :ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastergir Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) It may be helpfull if creators of building and crafting MODs would add a resource, like a .txt or sthg on their description page, detailling the menues/categories their MOD is supposed to show . Before I learned about the keyword limit, I had a few conflicting MODs installed - and in the wrong order XD - and was pleasantly surprised by all the added options once I got that sorted . If the category/menu structure and maybe - count of a each of those MODs was known, it would probably take less experimenting in some situations . was just a thought though, I dont know anything rly... Edited December 29, 2015 by Kastergir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted2948850User Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 The cap will probably increase with the CK update, or when they release their first DLC and have to =PIt's my understanding that the folks at Bethesda don't keep mods into account yet, since officially thegame shouldn't support modding just yet (even if they are aware of the current modding communities). It's good to know the cap's set at roughly a byte though, I don't use many crafting mods atm. but I'mcertainly planning to add a couple more to my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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