103 replies to this topic

[Striker879]

Loved the clip MarkinMMUK. So now I'm thinking maybe Hadrian's Wall was more of a privacy screen than defensive fortification.

I like the encumbrance idea. I've always disliked that "You picked one too many flax seeds" nailed to the floor either. The starting threshold for the sliding scale down in speed and scale up in fatigue would scale along with your strength, so that the start point for the penalty moves higher as you level and perhaps the penalty is reduced in steps as you attain the established threshold points for novice, expert etc.

Don't let my girls hear you talking about that ... they'll drive me nuts if they can't get out of the house once in a while (now there's a scripting challenge, realistic nagging ... nah, it wouldn't fly with our fairer members unless we included some typical male scratching etc ... maybe hogging the remote).

[Telyn]

I think this encumbrance/fatigue mod might be what you want: More Realistic Encumberment and Fatigue http://www.tesnexus....le.php?id=24604
This one is pretty hardcore, encourages you to sit down when you don't need to be standing. Encumbrance is affected by more factors including stats. May be less compatible, changes a lot: http://www.tesnexus....le.php?id=10925 Horses begin to stumble when tired in that mod.
This one removes the encumbrance limit entirely but punishes you by forcing you to walk if you are too encumbered. http://www.tesnexus....le.php?id=12074

I know it's hard to believe anyone could swim in metal armor but they did. Test, or hazing, I am not really sure where one becomes the other. Those bathing machines linked from there are bizarre and fascinating. Too bad they are too late.

This mod doesn't cause encumbrance fatigue but it causes battle fatigue, which could be interesting. http://www.tesnexus....le.php?id=24604

[MarkInMKUK]

Realism discussion point - Guns / Cannons / Gunpowder / Rockets

I've just been watching a TV programme (Time Team Special: Wars of the Roses) which reminded me that field artillery was actually in use in Britain by the 1460's, albeit in a primitive way. Furthermore, and competent blacksmith could actually turn out a 2" / 50mm bore cannon in well under a day, just using a forge, hammer and anvil.

Meanwhile, the Chinese had been using rockets for ceremonial purposes for thousands of years, although not usually as a warfare device. The Western world adopted rockets and almost instantly turned them to weapon use.

So...

What level of development of guns / rockets is likely / acceptable within the confines of Oblivion? Are Alchemists likely to be developing gunpowder? Who, if any, within the game are likely to be working on guns or rockets? Would Dwemer ruins turn up some form of gunpowder-based weapon (remembering the use of explosives in mining) and if so, who would be using them.

[Telyn]

This is a truly complex issue, because one has to wonder if magic had been an everyday part of society, how much need there would have been for such things. Personally, I wouldn't avoid a mod because it had cannons as long as they aren't magical cannons, but that might be a problem....

Hand cannons were actually around earlier than the 1460s, in China in the 1200s, Europeans and Arabs had them in the first half of the 1300s, according to the wikipedia. The reason they took awhile to dominate was inadequate range and piercing power initially. Here is my problem with bringing in guns. Yes, they probably should have been in Oblivion, had it not been for magic, which I think is one of the better excuses for deciding they weren't invented. I think two things would have happened if they were. First, as in the real world, plate armor would have become much less effective, and the forget glass armor. Two, Oblivion has magic, so wouldn't there have been magic guns, magic bullets and magic armor that protects against magic bullets, deflects bullets, or spells which explode gunpowder from a range? I'm getting a headache already. It's important to understand that in the early days, the common thing was for someone operating a hand cannon to have an assistant because otherwise you'd need a stand.

So let's say this scenario happens, magic combines with guns. Remember that mages already know how to aim and have to be good at it. What would I send against an army of armored knights with guns? Mages with guns, so they could fire the guns while mana recovered, and someone else reloads the gun while they cast. What would I send against mages with guns? Probably also mages with guns matched with a reloader/igniter. The magic/gun combo I think would result in almost entirely ranged battles, with the winning side being the ones with the greater range or more powerful spells or both. Why? Because by alternating the two with the aid of a minimally trained helper, there would be little or no downtime for reloading or regaining mana, and it's that downtime which makes warriors remain viable in fantasy swords and sorcery games. I feel like not only would most of the armor in the game become less effective, but warriors would become much less effective, perhaps useless. You would at the very least have to come up with an excuse for why mages cannot use a helper, and that would be difficult, since they can summon. It would definitely make archery useless. There was already an existing problem in the vanilla game that archery really can't compete well in a world that has spellcasters. Magic is immensely more flexible, and in vanilla game, a lot more deadly, too. If you could be a mage with a gun and an assistant so you can do ranged attacks almost nonstop and your magic bullets can pierce armor, why would anyone be a warrior?


I am sure there is probably some way to balance it, but I don't think it would be easy.http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hand_cannon

[MarkInMKUK]

Telyn,

Thanks for the viewpoint. Personally I prefer the game without guns and the attendant stuff, but I thought I'd open it up for discussion as it is a 2real2 item that could have been added without too much anachronism.

No guns for me, anyway.

Siege engines are quite another thing though ... Catapults and Trebuchets anyone?

[Telyn]

Yes to siege engines and catapults. I don't think they would be unbalancing, but then, I don't think there would be all the much use for them. I would like to see more war mods. There aren't very many, and I suppose Oblivion can't handle huge numbers of actors even if you change the ini.

[MarkInMKUK]

There MIGHT be a way around that limitation, possibly. Someone's working on an improved conversation mod, where you have a background program that runs and it accessed by the game engine vis scripts. What the limitations are I don't know, but if it can run extra npc's AIs in a second core, it might be a way to bypass certain game engine limitations - just use npc's as objects unless directly interacting

Pure speculation of course.

[MarkInMKUK]

Realism from scratch - first attempt.

OK, so it's time to put stuff into practice. How "realistic" can I make my game, starting in the tutorial jail cell. I'm mixing cosmetic and gameplay mods a little, as you'll see.

My character is a female Bosmer, aiming to be primarily an archer/sniper/thief type. Preinstalled OBSE, OBGEv2

Initial mods added for realism:
QTP3 Redimized Reduced - Because I have several other mods to add that have QTP3 options and I might as well start off with it.
Animated Window Lighting System and Chimneys - Added because it looks good from outside, and I know I'll be installing it once I get outdoors anyway.
Weather - All Natural - Added to get the "Real Lights" feature, so light actually comes only from "proper" light sources.
SM Encumbrance and Fatigue - I want to carry more, even if I have to drag it and rest a lot. This seems to fit the bill so far.
Cava Obscura - Dark caves and dungeons - now those torches are actually needed.
Duke Patricks Combat Archery mod - because I've been meaning to try it, and apparently it's going to be built into Skyrim.
While I was at it, I also added several more of the good Duke's mods (because they seem to cover other aspects of realism)...
Duke Patricks - Actors Can Miss Now
Duke Patricks - Near Miss Magic And Arrows Alert The Target
Duke Patricks Fresh Kills Now Alert The NPCs

OK, so I start the game going. Cell is darker, and the light comes from the torches and the corridor. plus the window.

(Pet irritation - I *know* that voice, but the face is wrong. Note to self - try and make a orking replacer for the Emperor using the NPC Texture Tweak and TNR's stuff.)

The usual suspects arrive, and make a hole in the cell wall. Goodness it's dark, but there's a dropped torch at the bottom. Scurry down and pick it up. Remember that I can't actually use it to hit someone, and if I drop it I'm in the dark. Thinks... Of course, now I need a droppable torch mod. Normally I'd run OOO which contains one, but this is a game based on a vanilla-ish install. So, plenty of DLT mods around, but eventually I went for Drop Lit Torches OBSE. I considered a Torch-as-a-weapon mod, but decided against as I will be sneaking mostly once I get some kind of night sight ability.

OK - steal stuff off the assassin bodies (I was too far back to get near them when they killed Renault) and pick up Renault's katana & short sword. Wall crumbles, and in come the rats. Press "F" to fight, torch drops ok, and I can still see. Wallop rats, heal self, pick up torch.

Creep through the hole, and start investigating. Deal with additional rat, heal, and pick up all of the goodies in the area, including picking a simple lock (which reminds me to lookm at lock-picking game alternatives). Can't aim at the well bucket - can't see it. Walk to well - drop torch. Walk back, aim at bucket, fire, miss. Repeat and hit.

Now creep onwards. Because I can't see much, due to the limited light range, I'm listening for every change in ambience (it doesn't help that I'm a little deaf. Maybe I shouldn't have replaced my Bosmer's ears with the shorter mesh ones from a dark elf). Flare spell at the ready I edge forwards. More rats, another chest, and then a passage leading down ... more rats .. and something making odd noises ahead. Kill the rats as they pass, then hurl a flare down the passage. See a zombie picking off another rat, then starting my way. Apply a couple m,ore flares, then hit it with the katana. Ex-zombie. (Realism note - should then burn the body perhaps?).

On and on ... find an openish area, with a couple more rats, and another chest - a harder lock. Thinks - realism and locks ... save game, look at mods to alter lockpicking.

To be continued. Comments welcome.

Edited by MarkInMKUK, 17 April 2011 - 07:59 PM.

[Telyn]

To add to the realism, you might want to use Dungeon Actors Have Torches and Exterior Actors Have Torches with minor fixes. Both of those mods do not give torches to races and monsters that wouldn't need them. Looking forward to reading more about your new character's adventures.

By the way, Striker is right, goblins do call each other in dungeons once you get out of the tutorial. I think their senses aren't as sharp as some creatures like imps, though. Their radius seems to be smaller. Also while observing them from walkways I noticed they are fairly likely to attack zombies and skeletons in the same dungeon, and sometimes get themselves killed. I had assumed those goblin corpses I often found were pre-placed, but mostly not.

[MarkInMKUK]

I'll probably go with DungeonAndExterior Actors Have Torches as it saves me an ESP slot, unless it doesn't work. If it fails I'll use the two above - thanks for the links.

And re the dead goblins - if you run a full FCOM install there are different clans of goblins, and sometimes in the tutorial cave there's more than one clan. They fight - to the death! Just need to kill the last one, and loot the corpses!

Edited by MarkInMKUK, 18 April 2011 - 09:34 AM.