88 replies to this topic

[xXxDragonSparksxXx]

I actually read an interesting book in Skyrim just this morning, talking about the "Talos Mistake" and it got me thinking. Primarily, there is no evidence that Talos actually ascended to godhood. In fact, with the exception of Akatosh, none of the Aedra interact with mundus (Because they are, actually, not divine*).

As such, i tend to subscribe more and more with the idea that Talos was never a god. He may have been taken to the side of the gods, but theres no indication, beyond the blessings of his shrines and his blood in Oblivion, that he has any power at all. The Shrines can be easially explained in context of enchanting. The blood, as we know from Skyrim, is a blessing from Akatosh, and thus it's the Dragon God's blessing that has the divine characteristics and not Talos himself.

The Dominion seem to accept that Talos was a great hero, but beleive that his worship detracts from the worship of the true gods, the Aedra, and i'm tempted to agree with them.


* Acording to the creation myths of the TES game, the Aedra were orriginally indistinguishable from the Daedra, but under the prompting of Lorkhan gave up their divinity to create the world, perminantly trapping themselves within their own domans. As such, the Daedra Princes are technicly more powerful than any of the gods.



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Also, if Alvor is to be beleived, it was only Ulfric's demands that Talos be openly worshiped that caused the Empire to actually enforce the White Gold Concordant. Prior to him stirring things up and calling attention to it, everyone worshiped Talos anyway, without any problems with the Thalmor.

Mainly the Thalmor try to ban it, because if there's more things that are not Elven culture (such as the retarded Thalmor believing they created the moons) then more people will rise up and realise the Thalmor CAN be fought.

Essentially, the Thalmor are actually in a bad position. Hammerfell was retaken, Skyrim is a very strong province and if led by the Dovahkiin, impossible to defeat (after all he/she can just contact Odahviing to destroy their army. Lol.) but mainly, the Empire would most likely see the threat of the Thalmor as nothing. "Elven Supremacy" is often mentioned by the Thalmor, yet I saw no Elves help the Red Mountain crisis, no elves helped in Oblivion...

all they seem to do is invade and annex. Yes, they are the nazis of The Elder Scrolls.

[Lachdonin]

Something that occured to me today while running around was this.

We know the Dominion has been having trouble lately. Their treaty prevents them from attacking the Empire without having everyone else turn on them. The Argonians and the Redguard threw them out. Imperial power has been growing again, due in no small part because of the might of Skyrim.

We also know that Ulfric is, or at least was at some point a Thalmar agent. What if the whole of the civil war is a means to destablise the Empire? As Alvor said, the Empire didn't enfoce the Talos clause of the Compact until Ulfric started to kick up a stink, calling obvious attention to it. If the Empire had done nothing, they would ahve been violating the treaty, giving the Dominion a reason to invade without offending any of the ther powers. If the Empire did crack down (as it has) then it would create tension, particularyly in Skryim (which it has) and potentially cause the strongest asset in the Empire to succede.

It seems possible, if not likely, that the Stormcloaks are unwitting pawns of the Aldmiri Domminon.

[Dambuster]

I actually read an interesting book in Skyrim just this morning, talking about the "Talos Mistake" and it got me thinking.

I also found the book you mention although it may be fairly one sided as it is written by a envoy to the Aldmeri Dominion.

Also to the man above it does seem that the Stormcloaks were originally manipulated by the Thalmor to destabilise the empire but Ulfric did break off contact and it does say that Stormcloaks in control of Skyrim would not be a good thing either for the Thalmor. I would therefore surmise that the current situation is the most advantageous to the Thalmor - and who is to stay a Stormcloak controlled Skyrim may be what is needed to revitalize the empire (perhaps we will see a new force made up of the humans) and attack the Thalmor. My worry is that the current empire is still too wary of the Thalmor and too cowardly to act against them.

Edited by Dambuster, 17 November 2011 - 08:50 PM.

[xaanos]

As was said in the thalmar book about ulric said they wanted a long drawn out civil war in skyrim. The dovakiin turned the tide and skyrim is rebuilding into a strong nation not a weak one involved in a stalemate civil war. While the rebellion was pushed by the Thalmar to cause problems in the empire it is no longer fitting there goals.

The major issue I have with the rebellion is the amount of racism in it. While I have always played a nord as long as I could. Really only the thalmar elves I have a hatred for. I think while some stormcloaks are racists they are defiantly the lesser of two evils when you consider the thalmar want to enslave everyone the nords just don't want to live with the other races.

[Dambuster]

There really is a huge amount of racism in TES the supremacist Dunmer in Morrowind, the rather full of themselves Imperials in Oblivion and the large proportion of racist nords in Skyrim as well as the nazi-esque Thalmor. I'm pretty sure large proportions of the other races you meet are highly race with the worst being Bretons and perhaps the best being Argonians or Redguard.

[justwannaddl]

I actually like the racism in Skyrim. In Oblivion, besides daedra hating on mortals, racism was more or less under the radar and it didn't really matter what race one chose.

edit: Another note on why the Aldmeri Dominion does not recognize Talos as a hero much less a god is simply because he kinda crushed the original 2nd era dominion when he forged his empire. If anything, he is their devil and they don't want Talos or any other Dragonborn repeating history.

Edited by justwannaddl, 18 November 2011 - 05:27 AM.

[Gilibran]

The problem i have with the stormcloaks is they dont see the big picture. My Nord character is descended from the Champion of Cyrodiil who in turn is a descendant of the Nerevarine ;-) so we have some family experience with mixed up imperial records and ending up in prison or worse. So despite having my head almost chopped off i sided with the imperials.

During the quests and travelling through Skyrim, listening & reading a lot my conclusion is that Skyrim is the perfect place to start building up forces to eventually take on the Thalmor. In order to do that the Empire sacrifices the right to worship Talos. But as stated above by someone else it was'nt a real problem until the rebbelion started. Nobody worshipped Talos openly but in private is a whole other matter.

Now what the empire does'nt need, if they want to take on the Thalmor at some point, is a rebelious province which, as said, would be ideal to build up forces. What they want is Skyrim to look docile and peacefull and just another province so they can report to the Thalmor "No news from the Skyrim front" and draw as less attention to it as possible.

Think of it, Skyrim is ideal for secretly building up and hidding huge stocks of weapons and supplies for the, imho, inevitable war against the Thalmor under the right emperor, counsil or Hero.

[Lachdonin]

It may be apparent by now, but i really, REALLY do not like Ulfric. Something about his character just rubs me the wrong way. He's a power hungry tyrant who is stuck in the brutal traditions of a bygone era who is absolutely convinced of his own superiority. In many way, i suppose he can be likened to a human version of Alduin.

The way i see the sequence of events leading to now is this...

Forsworn capture Markarth
Ulfric and company retake Markarth, become heroes
Ulfric, under orders of the Thalmar demands open worship of Talos to incide division in Skyrim
Empire cracks down to keep Thalmor happy
Civil War starts
Ulfric severs contact with Thalmor, deciding he deserved to be High King
Ulfric murders Tyrrog
Ulfric is captured
Game begins

The country is essentially divided into two factions, the old braggarts and the forward thinkers. The older rules are set in their ways and obsessed with 'tradition'. One of these traditions, as relayed by the Jarl of Whiterun, is the common murdering of opposing Jarls. It seems that the 'traditional' Skyrim is nothing more than city states in a barely contained state of civil war anyway. How any of the Jarls think this is a good idea is beyond me.

[HazardHighlanders2011]

My Nord character is descended from the Champion of Cyrodiil who in turn is a descendant of the Nerevarine ;-)

well Oblivion takes place around 7 years after Morrowind so i don't see how your Oblivion character could be Descended from your Morrowind character. Morrowind starts at 3E 427 and Oblivion starts at 3E 433

Edited by HazardHighlanders2011, 18 November 2011 - 02:19 PM.

[Gilibran]

Ah, No. You see right after finishing Morrowind he got very, very, very drunk and walked into a Oblivion gate. Met his wife there, got married had children and spent the rest of his life on a plane of Oblivion. We all know time works different there. When the Oblivion crisis came one of his by then grown up sons went through a gate back to Cyrodiil and became the Champion of Cyrodiil In the end it turned out it was all planned by Sheogorath who needed a Champion.