88 replies to this topic

[eltucu]

Did you miss the part where the Empire annihilated the entire Thalmor army and hung their general from the White-Gold Tower?

Did you miss the part when Mede signed the Concordat? Or when they lost the bulk of their army trying to regain their capital? Thats right, they lost their capital, and they regained it. Their grand victory is conquering a piece of land that they themselves lost, they didnt even set foot on Thalmor's territory. Obiously they cant even if they wanted.

That just opens a door for the next Dragonborn Emperor to restore the Empire to it's former glory. You also have the option of destroying the Dark Brotherhood instead.

So completely dismiss the only living guy who wants to wage war against the Thalmor in the hopes that someone else will pop up and be the saviour of our times. Do you like to gamble or something? Well scrap that, its TES, even a god could make an appearance and fck the Thalmor for some reason beyond our understanding BUT, its not that likely to actually depend on that divine/shezarine intervention.

Face it, the Nords alone (in their crappy light Stormcloak Armor) cannot defeat the Thalmor in such a way that they will be destroyed. They may be able to hold them out of Skyrim for a while, but what happens when they take Black Marsh, Morrowind, Cyrodill, Hammerfell, and High Rock? How will Skyrim stand then? The Thalmor want the Empire to break apart so that they're more vulnerable.

The Thalmor are a looooong way of conquering all black marsh, argonian controlled morrowind and hammerfell. More over, if a serious treat starts to boil against the Thalmor, like say, a new high king in Skyrim that defeated the imperial forces, you can bet that once pushed harder to the inevitable conflict, all of those provinces will make a stand too, its their best shot since they cant rely on the Empire for that role as their previous conflict made clear. Who knows, maybe in the next peace treaty they may surrender all of Tamriel's asses and make a massive lube pot and give it to the Thalmor. They already did that once, signed off the sovereignty of a lot of ppl the Empire doesnt owns. Thats why half of Hammerfell and half of Skyrim is pissed at the Empire, luckily the Argonians drove the imperials out before they could sign off their free will too.

Edited by eltucu, 13 January 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[Slexlaw]

First time through I didn't get involved in the civil war until late. However I did think the stormcloaks were more deserving because the elves / imperials were trying to impose their culture on the native nords. That all changed when I went to Markarth and played through the Forsworn missions. So IMO you have the scumbag elves controlling the imperials stomping on the nords freedom. But at the same time you have the stormcloaks stomping on the forsworn's freedom. Both sides are bastards, but I prefer to slaughter elves. I wish you could side with the forsworn in a meaningful way.

[justwannaddl]

First time through I didn't get involved in the civil war until late. However I did think the stormcloaks were more deserving because the elves / imperials were trying to impose their culture on the native nords. That all changed when I went to Markarth and played through the Forsworn missions. So IMO you have the scumbag elves controlling the imperials stomping on the nords freedom. But at the same time you have the stormcloaks stomping on the forsworn's freedom. Both sides are bastards, but I prefer to slaughter elves. I wish you could side with the forsworn in a meaningful way.

Y'know, I might have felt the same way about the forsworn if they weren't a bunch of genocidal worshipers of cannibalistic hagravens. If Markarth was as messed up then as it is now, I wouldn't blame Ulfric for taking no prisoners during his assault.

[falseblackbear]

Did you miss the part when Mede signed the Concordat? Or when they lost the bulk of their army trying to regain their capital? Thats right, they lost their capital, and they regained it. Their grand victory is conquering a piece of land that they themselves lost, they didnt even set foot on Thalmor's territory. Obiously they cant even if they wanted.

My point was they fought them to a stalemate and, seeing they could not defeat the Thalmor in their current state, adopted a temporary appeasement strategy, similar to the British in World War II, so they can build up their strength and destroy the Thalmor. Ulfric is just delaying the Empire's efforts while the Thalmor get stronger because he refuses to see in the long term, a disunited Tamriel will fall to the Thalmor.

So completely dismiss the only living guy who wants to wage war against the Thalmor in the hopes that someone else will pop up and be the saviour of our times.

I meant the player. You are the Dragonborn in-game. The last Dragonborn (not just bloodline, but actual Dragonborn) FOUNDED the Empire. It's not a stretch to assume that the next one (you) can save it. Honestly, both of my characters could probably take on a Thalmor army all by their lonesome.

More over, if a serious treat starts to boil against the Thalmor, like say, a new high king in Skyrim that defeated the imperial forces, you can bet that once pushed harder to the inevitable conflict, all of those provinces will make a stand too,

Disunity brings only weakness. The Redguards are still engaged in a bloody war against the Thalmor, the Black Marsh and Morrowind are in anarchy with numerous warlords vying for control, the only hope for the non-Dominion nations is to unite and drive back the Thalmor.

I also just wanted to point out that the Imperial Army is ridiculously underrepresented in Skyrim. You rarely see soldiers in heavy Imperial armor, you NEVER see Imperial Orc Berserkers, and I've only seen ONE Imperial Battlemage (During Alduin's scripted attack on Helgen at the very beginning)

[sajuukkhar9000]

Disunity brings only weakness. The Redguards are still engaged in a bloody war against the Thalmor, the Black Marsh and Morrowind are in anarchy with numerous warlords vying for control, the only hope for the non-Dominion nations is to unite and drive back the Thalmor.

that is false, the Redguards pushed The thalmor out nearly 20 years before the start of the game and the war with the thalmor reunited The Crowns and forbeaers.

Black Marsh's current state is unkown but The Hist are assumed to be in strong controll over whats happening there.

Morrowind is actually undergoing rebuilding, and besdies the argonais sitting in the south is for the most part OK.

[Feanoro]

You can't "save" the Empire anymore, the Aldmeri Dominion managed to break it apart through its treaties that made the Empire turn on its own people. The moment the Empire accepted to undergo religious persecution OF ITS OWN PEOPLE was the moment it stopped being something worth fighting for. Just remember how "helpful" Tullius was when you asked him to sign an order freeing that Gray-Mane from the Thalmor prison (and I tried this with my first character at various moments during the Civil War while a member of the Legion). Not even after I won the Civil War for the Empire would he grant me that one favor. That's how much the Empire cares about the Nords...

As far as the cities go, the ones controlled by the Empire generally look better because the Imperials pump gold into all the Jarls who openly support them. Don't forget, however, that on the Stormcloak side you have cities such as Winterhold, that has been almost destroyed by the Oblivion Crisis and Riften, in which Maven Black-Briar, a well known friend with great connections in the Empire, is helping the underworld of Riften to thrive.

Also, you forget that the Jarl of Markarth, Igmund, openly supports the Empire despite essentially having Ulfric to thank for regaining control of the Reach. Under his supervision the Silver-Bloods are pumping Cidhna mine full of Forsworn and carting off the silver in the direction of the Empire. Thus, the Empire is no friend of the Forsworn either.

Also, as other people have said, the Forsworn shouldn't be pitied that much. The Nords in the Reach vs the Forsworn is in many ways similar to the Jewish-Palestinian conflict. Both sides have claim on the land, and if you believe the Forsworn (similar to Palestinians) they've been there longer, but the truth is both are bloody. The Forsworn even more so, as they're not just building armies to attack Markarth and such, but have also taken to banditry and terrorist actions against civilians.

As for racism you hear that from the Nords in general, because they feel the Elves are imposing their own beliefs and desires on them while using the Empire to exploit their land. The Stormcloaks, however, are focused on liberating Skyrim from the Empire and taking the fight to the Aldmer.

Therefore when people say the Stormcloaks are racist it's really a stretch, as the Stormcloaks are a military faction with precise aims, none of which are racist in nature. All we can say, for certain, is that there are many racist Nords in Skyrim, some of which are random people all over Skyrim and some of which are also Stormcloak soldiers. It's also true that the Stormcloak cities, which are visibly impoverished have a greater concentration of disgruntled, racist Nords. But going from these facts to comparing the Stormcloaks to Nazis and other racist groups is really too much. Nowhere in Skyrim can you see a concentration camp or discussions about the systematic elimination of one race or another. The Stormcloaks just want control of their own home and the power to rule it free of external influences.

[Lachdonin]

Saying you can't save the Empire is a streatch at best. It was 'doomed' when Jagar Tharn was impersonating the Emperor. It was 'doomed' after the Oblivion Crisis. It was 'doomed' during the Great War when the Emperor deserted the Imperial City. It's been doomed many, many times before, and its always pulled its ass out ot the fire. Saying its beyond hope has no basis beyond personal oppinion.

That said, i do agree that people tend to play up the racism of the Stormcloaks. They ARE racist, that is a fact, but no more than anyone else in Skyrim. The Empire has a degree of racism in the notion that their culture and traditions are superior, the Reach-men dispise anyone not Reach-born, the Falmer dispise... Well, everyone. Racism is a part of Skyrim wherever you look.

The major differance between the Empire and the Stormcloaks, in that regard, is that the Empire pushes the various races to work together, through 'higher' Cyrodiilic culture and traditions. The Stormcloaks are openly supportive of racial independance. Nords should stand on their own. Dunmer should stand on their own. Bretons should stand on their own. Foresworn should drown on their own. The Stormcloaks support independance, the Empire interdependance.

That said, the racism in Skyrim is nothing compared to Morrowind. Even if your a Dark Elf there, they hate you. If you weren't born in Morrowind, you're an outlander and only good to fill graves.

[falseblackbear]

and if you believe the Forsworn (similar to Palestinians) they've been there longer, but the truth is both are bloody.

I don't want this to become a political thing, but the Jews own Israel. It's been theirs since thousands of years Before Christ. The Palestinians are an invented people that exist just to breed hatred for the Jews.
Back to Skyrim:

The Stormcloaks, however, are focused on liberating Skyrim from the Empire and taking the fight to the Aldmer.

How exactly do they plan on doing that? Skyrim isn't very well populated, It's cities are small, it has poor crop yield, it's filled to the brim with bandits and other baddies, and look around! The place is falling apart! The roads are crap, the walls and forts are falling apart, and most of Winterhold fell off a cliff! It would take all of the Stormcloaks years just to fight off the assorted brigands, and even then their homeland is in no condition to support a war with the Thalmor, either in Skyrim or in Thalmor territory.

That being said, can everyone drop the "racism" thing? It's getting annoying. First off, it's not racist if they're a different species, which the Dunmer, Altmer, Bosmer, Khajit, Orcs, and Argonians clearly are. Second, accusing the Stormcloaks of being racist is old. Everyone who's not in denial realizes that fact already, so there's no need to keep repeating it.

[eltucu]

My point was they fought them to a stalemate and, seeing they could not defeat the Thalmor in their current state, adopted a temporary appeasement strategy, similar to the British in World War II, so they can build up their strength and destroy the Thalmor. Ulfric is just delaying the Empire's efforts while the Thalmor get stronger because he refuses to see in the long term, a disunited Tamriel will fall to the Thalmor.

First, WWII got USA in the middle after that and the big rally of the soviet union so no, its not a good example. Unless you're saying that the only hope of the empire is that the great army of Akavir comes to help it for some reason. Second, they cant get up with the Thalmor all up their asses. They just cant, they got all the thalmor intelligence feasting on their issues right in their faces. As i said, it wouldnt be surprising if after Mede's death, some pro thalmor guy get the emperor title.

I meant the player. You are the Dragonborn in-game. The last Dragonborn (not just bloodline, but actual Dragonborn) FOUNDED the Empire. It's not a stretch to assume that the next one (you) can save it. Honestly, both of my characters could probably take on a Thalmor army all by their lonesome.

Dont confuse gampleay mechanics with actual truths. For that matter, we could send any of the jarls to the thalmor since they're essentials and cannot be killed. And it is a stretch, the Blades are almost non existant, this is not the founding of the empire, besides, another bad example, Talos used the Skyrim's army to found the empire. Conquering province after province, starting pretty much like Ulfric. So even if the player is the next talos, he would be so at Ulfrics side rather than with the Empire.

Disunity brings only weakness.

Yes, thats what i meant when i said that when pushed harder to the inevitable conflict, they will make a stand against the Thalmor. The Empire is not pushing at all, and its far more likely that the other provinces would let them burn.

The Redguards are still engaged in a bloody war against the Thalmor, the Black Marsh and Morrowind are in anarchy with numerous warlords vying for control, the only hope for the non-Dominion nations is to unite and drive back the Thalmor.

As Lachdonin pointed out. The Redguards already drove the Thalmor out. And the Argonians are united, by one clan that drove the Empire out after the Oblivion Crisis after the Hist recalled all the argonians to their homeland.

Besides, you're completely missing my points. Both the Argonians and the Redguards hate the Empire, they wouldnt unite under their banner at all. The Argonian hatred for the empire goes to the times when the Empire first set foot in Argonia. And the Redguards felt betrayed, much like Ulfric and the Stormcloacks, by the Empire when they signed the Concordat. Honestly, where do you see there some hope of uniting those ppl under the banner of the Empire?

I also just wanted to point out that the Imperial Army is ridiculously underrepresented in Skyrim. You rarely see soldiers in heavy Imperial armor, you NEVER see Imperial Orc Berserkers, and I've only seen ONE Imperial Battlemage (During Alduin's scripted attack on Helgen at the very beginning)

Did you paid attention to what was going on at all? All the imperial forces are at the frontier with the Aldmeri Dominion, that was what Tullius was complaining about, that he couldnt get reinforcements at all.

More over, the Legions arent that powerful since they clearly couldnt recover that much after signing the Concordat. They cant spare soldiers for Skyrim, and they obiously couldnt spare soldiers for helping the redguards even if they accepted their help (with all that redguard honor stuff).

The major differance between the Empire and the Stormcloaks, in that regard, is that the Empire pushes the various races to work together, through 'higher' Cyrodiilic culture and traditions. The Stormcloaks are openly supportive of racial independance. Nords should stand on their own. Dunmer should stand on their own. Bretons should stand on their own. Foresworn should drown on their own. The Stormcloaks support independance, the Empire interdependance.

After all, the Empire is somewhat based off the Roman Empire, Pax Romana and Pax Mongolica comes to mind.

That said, far more ppl actually like the idea of cultural superiority rather than racial superiority (first one rings a bell in current real life conflicts? ), even if both are probably in the same stupid middle ground of stupidity. And thats why some ppl see the Empire's influence as a good thing.

That said, the racism in Skyrim is nothing compared to Morrowind. Even if your a Dark Elf there, they hate you. If you weren't born in Morrowind, you're an outlander and only good to fill graves.

And this is why i cant drop a tear for the dunmer in Windhelm at all. Even if i tried i only say divine payback in that situation.

[Lachdonin]

Besides, you're completely missing my points. Both the Argonians and the Redguards hate the Empire, they wouldnt unite under their banner at all. The Argonian hatred for the empire goes to the times when the Empire first set foot in Argonia. And the Redguards felt betrayed, much like Ulfric and the Stormcloacks, by the Empire when they signed the Concordat. Honestly, where do you see there some hope of uniting those ppl under the banner of the Empire

The Empire already brought the Redguard into the fold, unwillingly, once before. Within Siber Septim's lifetime, he had no less than 2 Redguard rebellions to put down. And still, the Redguard ended up becomming loyal members of the Empire. As such, i think that idea of the current relationship being irreperable is a streatch, and has no basis beyond supposition. In fact, history indicates the complete opposite.

That said, far more ppl actually like the idea of cultural superiority rather than racial superiority (first one rings a bell in current real life conflicts? ), even if both are probably in the same stupid middle ground of stupidity. And thats why some ppl see the Empire's influence as a good thing.

You also have to take into considerating that, by and large, the Empire hasn't attempted to force a total cultural conversion. It's had almost 700 years at this point to do so, and all the nations of the Empire still maintain a very distinct culture. The Empire only seems to try to infoced its cultural hegimony when there is a threat, and even then it does so on an ad hoc basis.