88 replies to this topic

[eltucu]

As such, i think that idea of the current relationship being irreperable is a streatch, and has no basis beyond supposition. In fact, history indicates the complete opposite.

The basis is that if the empire cant spend any ammount of attention to the rebellion in Skyrim, what makes you think they can just ride to Hamerfell and crush them right away? They dont have the resources. Thats a fact. More so, part of them must be spent on enforcing the Concordat.

The situation of the Empire has changed drastically, you just cant go and overlap past events with the current ones cuz the context has changed drastically.

You also have to take into considerating that, by and large, the Empire hasn't attempted to force a total cultural conversion. It's had almost 700 years at this point to do so, and all the nations of the Empire still maintain a very distinct culture. The Empire only seems to try to infoced its cultural hegimony when there is a threat, and even then it does so on an ad hoc basis.

We cannot say that. We only have been on Morrowind (special case with the tribunal negotiating the assimilation in the middle), Cyrodill (all imperial), and Skyrim (the imperial half is pretty imperial dont you think? specially solitude) and hammerfell (another special case for the most part).

In Argonia they failed, but they tried. And they outlawed skooma where they could (thats a big one against Khajiit culture), i dunno how it is in Valenwood but im pretty certain High Rock its pretty imperial.

All provinces do seem to share a similar pattern. Every province has a city with strong imperial culture from where the imperials enforce the will of the Empire, in times of peace or not.

Edited by eltucu, 14 January 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[falseblackbear]

So even if the player is the next talos, he would be so at Ulfrics side rather than with the Empire.

Not really, if you ask people about Ulfric almost all but his most loyal supporters will talk about his selfishness, how he's conceited, power-hungry, etc. 1 example is the Stormcloak replacement jarl for Falkreath. The Dark Brotherhood questline affords the player the opprotunity to eliminate the Emperor and the would-be successor in one fell swoop, opening the door for a new era of leadership. Even if you don't kill the Emporer, your actions alone would probably give you enough popular support to take over.
All it takes to change the course of history is the will of a single man.

Both the Argonians and the Redguards hate the Empire, they wouldnt unite under their banner at all.

Surely you realize that the Argonians and the Redguards realize that if the Empire disintegrates, the Thalmor will be able to pick off the individual kingdoms one by one, as they already did in Eleswyr and Valenwood. Also, I'm not so sure what the situation is in Hammerfell. The Redguards definitely pushed the Thalmor out after the great war, but the Alik'r refer to cities that recently fell due to a certain traitor(im not going to spoil it, it's a quest), and they say that the resistance in Hammerfell is still very much alive, implying that there may be some reason for people to believe that it isn't. Maybe the Thalmor invaded again? I'm not sure, but there seem to be hints at that.

[eltucu]

Not really, if you ask people about Ulfric almost all but his most loyal supporters will talk about his selfishness, how he's conceited, power-hungry, etc.

And? First, those are opinions, no one even pin pointed a fact bout Ulfric that backs those up, and from what i've listened from his conversations with Galmar, he is really waging war against the Empire and the Thalmor. Do you ever noticed that he talks about fighting the empire but never ever suggests that he wants to be the new emperor? All that matters to him is recovering Skyrim, after that, being high king and bring the war to the Dominion. But thats it as far as the game shows.

Second, it is irrelevant to the point that i tried to make. It doesnt matters how Ulfric behaves, what it matters is what he wants to do and how he does it. And as i said, if you want to pull out a new Talos, the situation is way more closer to the Stormcloak rebellion rather than the maintaining the status quo of the Empire. You mentioned Talos and what he did, i simply stated that Ulfric rebellion is more way closer to how Talos actually started.

Surely you realize that the Argonians and the Redguards realize that if the Empire disintegrates, the Thalmor will be able to pick off the individual kingdoms one by one

They are able now, they're fcking with the empire, the nords, and the redguards. And that didnt prevent Redguards from fighting for their land nor Stormcloacks from starting their rebellion. Now, if the empire retreats from Skyrim, that will be another kingdom that isnt obliged to acknowledge the Concordat and another rock in the Dominion's shoes. As i said, the Empire cannot reunite what is left by force, because they dont have it, even less by diplomacy, cuz they lost that card a while ago (a LONG while ago in the case of Black Marsh).

If you insist in giving more land to the Empire, you're essentially extending the direct influence the Thalmor can have by the means of the Concordat. More ways for filling the nobles with gold, arresting and torturing the ppl that stands in the middle, keeping in touch with every Empire's business, etc.

Also, I'm not so sure what the situation is in Hammerfell. The Redguards definitely pushed the Thalmor out after the great war, but the Alik'r refer to cities that recently fell due to a certain traitor(im not going to spoil it, it's a quest), and they say that the resistance in Hammerfell is still very much alive, implying that there may be some reason for people to believe that it isn't. Maybe the Thalmor invaded again? I'm not sure, but there seem to be hints at that.

The Alik actually said, as far as i know, that the traitor sold them to the Thalmor in the war (30 yrs before TESV), not recently. http://www.uesp.net/...m:The_Great_War Look at the epilogue. The Redguards signed a treaty with the thalmor 20 yrs before TESV, and the dominion retreated from Hammerfell entirely.

Edited by eltucu, 14 January 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Lachdonin]

The basis is that if the empire cant spend any ammount of attention to the rebellion in Skyrim, what makes you think they can just ride to Hamerfell and crush them right away? They dont have the resources. Thats a fact. More so, part of them must be spent on enforcing the Concordat.

The situation of the Empire has changed drastically, you just cant go and overlap past events with the current ones cuz the context has changed drastically.

If you can't use historical considerations, all you have is supposition and here-say. The entire discussion on the Civil War, then, would revolve on "Such and such says this" and "So and so says that".

We cannot say that. We only have been on Morrowind (special case with the tribunal negotiating the assimilation in the middle), Cyrodill (all imperial), and Skyrim (the imperial half is pretty imperial dont you think? specially solitude) and hammerfell (another special case for the most part).

In Argonia they failed, but they tried. And they outlawed skooma where they could (thats a big one against Khajiit culture), i dunno how it is in Valenwood but im pretty certain High Rock its pretty imperial.

All provinces do seem to share a similar pattern. Every province has a city with strong imperial culture from where the imperials enforce the will of the Empire, in times of peace or not.

We also have Highrock. Hammerfell still maintains its on independant culture. So does Valenwood and Elsweyr, and Summerset maintained its own independant administration, to the point where the records from the Mereithic Era were forbidden for non-Altmer scholars. Even within Skyrim, with the exception of Solitude, most of the Holds maintain their own cultures, administration and even judicial systems. Theres no evidence, anywhere but Blackmarsh, of the Empire triyng to really subvery local cultures. They set up a single administrative location, and let others deal with themselves.

[falseblackbear]

All that matters to him is recovering Skyrim, after that, being high king and bring the war to the Dominion. But thats it as far as the game shows.

You just contradicted yourself. you said that he wasn't power-hungry, yet one of the few things that matters to him is being High King. Regardless, just listen to his conversation with Galmar after you take Solitude. Case in point.

Now, if the empire retreats from Skyrim, that will be another kingdom that isnt obliged to acknowledge the Concordat and another rock in the Dominion's shoes.

It's also another kingdom that will fight alone. "Divide and conquer" holds true in this instance. I have said this many times, and I will say it again: the Thalmor CANNOT BE STOPPED by disunified, individual kingdoms. It takes an empire to topple an empire, whether it be an empire imploding on itself or one conquering another. Say Skyrim breaks off, the empire disintegrates, and the Thalmor invade Cyrodill. Cyrodill will stand alone, and it will fall. Next, let's say they attack Skyrim. Skyrim will stand alone, and it will fall. And so on with High Rock, Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and Morrowind. The Thalmor need not only use military conquest, they could just as easily implement puppet governments as they did in Valenwood and Elysweyr. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks care for nobody but the Nords, and will come to nobody else's aid. Nobody will come to Skyrim's aid because of how they treat other kingdoms and their subjects. One by one, the kingdoms will fall. Their only hope is to join together and build up enough strength to take the fight to the Thalmor.

The Alik actually said, as far as i know, that the traitor sold them to the Thalmor in the war (30 yrs before TESV), not recently.

While that may be true, they certainly refer to the resistance still being alive as present tense, indicating that there is at least some Thalmor presence, probably more along the lines of spies and Thalmor puppets in government than actual soldiers at this point.

[eltucu]

You just contradicted yourself. you said that he wasn't power-hungry, yet one of the few things that matters to him is being High King. Regardless, just listen to his conversation with Galmar after you take Solitude. Case in point.

No, you just dont understand that Ulfric having the high king title is the only possible way in wich Talos worship and total skyrim independence can be restored. It is never proven in the game that Ulfric wants the title just because. If one guy wants to be a policeman it doesnt immediatly means that he thirst for power and will abuse it. It may be just the only way to get their goals accomplished, in this case, Skyrim total independence.

More so, it looks like Ulfric will actually do something once he is the high king. Elisif is the most useless jarl around for crying out loud (after that guy in falkreath of course).

I have said this many times, and I will say it again: the Thalmor CANNOT BE STOPPED by disunified, individual kingdoms

And i have said it many times aswell that IT WAS STOPPED BY A SINGLE PROVINCE ALREADY. Jeez, if the Redguards can pull it out, you could bet your ass that the nords can do the same. The imperials just doesnt allows it and set back everyone with that "Just wait for it, we'll do something bout it someday" plan of theirs.

You're still thinking that the Thalmor can overun Hammerfell and Skyrim for some reason. Why? I just dont understand. The redguards drove the thalmor out already, they didnt set foot on Black Marsh and they have a heavy opposition on skyrim. Wtf are you basing the stuff you're saying on? They're friggin elves, not some god killing machine. Dont you think they'd already have Skyrim and Hammerfell on their side if they could just plant puppet kindoms like Valenwood and Elsewyr? Its not like they're just taking a nap and they are going to get their hands on it any moment. They're trying exactly that since the Concordat was signed and they couldnt stop Ulfrics rebellion nor the Redguards, with the argonians they didnt even tried.

Besides, what they pulled in Eslewyr and Valenwood cannot be aplied to man kingdoms. Valenwood was part of the old aldmeri dominion and they just played a big part of their history. And supposedly, they returned the moons (wich are sacred to the khajiit), and the old Elsewyr kingdoms, and for that the Khajiit now are part of the dominion.

they certainly refer to the resistance still being alive as present tense, indicating that there is at least some Thalmor presence, probably more along the lines of spies and Thalmor puppets in government than actual soldiers at this point.

Go and do the quest again if you must. You're just guessing stuff there. The resistance is alive in the sense that there is still ppl who want to drive the war to the thalmor rather than sit on their asses like, say, the empire.

You know, im done with this, im just repeating myself while you're circling around the poinst that i made like 3 times in the hope that i will forget about something eventually. I already explained what happened with the redguards, yet you seem to believe the thalmor is unstoppable for some reason. I already explained that you simply cant unite the redguards and argonians with the empire (and half skyrim neither) cuz both redguards and argonians currently hate the empire, with the empire unable to bring them on the same side with force or diplomacy, and yet you talk about unity under the empire's banner for some reason. You talk bout Ulfric being mad with desires of power, yet if you pay attention, the only way that he will get what half skyrim wants is waging war against the Empire and yeah, get power and USE IT for something good instead of handing it to the Thalmor so they can do whatever they please.

Its been like this for one page or so. And im not writing anymore, my english is good enough as it is so i dun need that much practice i hope. Farewell! Im going to play a little more with my pro imperial khajiit and see whats what...

Edited by eltucu, 15 January 2012 - 12:38 AM.

[Lachdonin]

The whole Hammerfell thing keeps comming up, and as much as i don't want to, i feel the need to point out a few facts about it.

First, the Thalmor invasion of Hammerfell was secondary. They commited the overwhelming majority of their forces to Cyrodiil in an attempt to break the Empire in one fell swoop. After their DEFEAT at the Battle of the Red Ring, the Thalmor had only token forces to involve in Hammerfell.

Second, the Reguard forces were made up mostly of Imperial veterans.

Third, Hammerfell did not 'Drive the Thalmor out'. They fought them to a blood standstill over 5 years which resulted in the signing of a Treaty. Even then, the southren portions of Hammerfell are virtural wastelands.

Had Hammerfell been forced to contend with the type of invasionary force the Empire defeated, they would have fallen. Very, very quickly.

[justwannaddl]

@Lachdonin: Actually, it did fall to just such a force in the beginning of the war. It was only after the Thalmor saw how easy it was to beat the Imperials there that they pressed on to Cyrodiil with the other portion of their army.

After the war, since the Thalmor had no invasion force left, it was only a matter of getting rid of the occupation force for Hammerfell; a goal that would may have been made easier if the empire had the will to liberate the former province instead of capitulate. Such an act would have been a gamble though since any soldiers sent to Hammerfell meant less soldiers to maintain control and security in its own lands.

Edit: Forgot to include that most of the forces, Cyrodiil and Hammerfell went on to sack the IC. Hammerfell was likely around half the army. In any case, most of the invasion force was destroyed after the IC was retaken.

Edited by justwannaddl, 15 January 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[falseblackbear]

Actually, it did fall to just such a force in the beginning of the war. It was only after the Thalmor saw how easy it was to beat the Imperials there that they pressed on to Cyrodiil with the other portion of their army.

The Thalmor captured the southern coast, and their main force was in Hammerfell. Emporer Mede withdrew the Legion that was fighting the Thalmor so that they could assist in retaking the Imperial City. The commander of said legion left a large force of his veteran legionnaries behind to lead the Redguards in their fight against the Thalmor. The Legionnaries left over (about 10% of that legion) fought so well that the Thalmor believed that the whole Legion was still in Hammerfell, and they kept about half of their army there while the other half was destroyed by Emperor Mede. The Legionnaries that stayed behind even helped the Redguards after the war to force the Thalmor into signing a treaty. The Empire never abandoned Hammerfell, they just did so "officially." Mede is smarter than he seems. As for all this vaunted Redguard hostility towards the Empire, I have yet to experience any after putting many hours into the game in two separate playthroughs. All the redguards I've encountered (that weren't hostile) are friendly towards the empire at best and indifferent at worst. The Alik'r never talk about the Empire abandoning them, and they're the ones with the most right to complain.

Regardless of if there is bad blood between the Empire and Hammerfell, reuniting them into the Empire is a vastly better option than letting the Empire disintegrate into disunified kingdoms that will inevitably fall one by one to the Thalmor.

I used to think the Stormcloaks were a better choice, but then I took a common to the sense.

[Feanoro]

Again, the only way reunification of the current Empire is possible is BY FORCE. This holds because of how Titus Mede II treated Hammerfell. At the same time the Nords are quite discontent (as evidenced by the attempted rebellion in Skyrim) and if we're to remember that Amaund Motierre is a Breton from a very old family of High Rock (or at least that's what all the net sources say) then we can deduce that there unhappy people in High Rock as well.

Therefore diplomacy can't reunite the Empire in its current form. Strength, on the other hand, is exactly what Cyrodiil is LACKING at the moment. The only way these provinces can work together again is under a DIFFERENT form of leadership, perhaps some sort of federation or alliance in which each province has equal say and veto power.

But what you're forgetting is that the Empire's strength is also their weakness: it's true that if each province pools their armies together you'll get a greater military force than what you could do individually. However, by defeating this force, the Aldmeri Dominion was close to defeating the WHOLE Empire.

With each province independent and in some form of nationalistic throes, the Aldmeri Dominion will have a much harder time conquering everyone. First of all they will have to send armies in each individual province at one time or another, facing completely diffferent geographical conditions, armies, mentalities, etc. Each time they try conquering one of these provinces they won't face Imperial Legions who have the option of retreating further inland, rebuilding their strength and then perhaps trying to reconquer things.

No, this time each province only fights for itself and for the freedom of its lands and people. This means that in each province the Altmer will have to pay for every blade of grass/sand/etc in blood. Furthermore, even if they attack one province at a time and even if nobody cooperates with anybody else ever (which will never happen, after cyrodiil falls I'll bet you my 200 banish-enchanted iron daggers that the other 3 human provinces will work together to destroy the Dominion), it's one thing to CONQUER a province and quite another to HOLD a province.

The Empire succeeded exactly because after imposing some administrative/judicial/financial measures on each province, they by and large left the cultures and people there to live the way they want to and integrated their people into the Legion.

However, the Aldmeri Dominion considers all humans to be inferior beings, openly persecutes anyone for worshipping Talos and so on. Imagine how hard the Nords or Redguards will rebel against the Altmer if they barely accepted the Empire lately?

Finally, the Dominion flows its armies from 2 provinces, hence they do not have an infinite capacity for soldiers. They also took heavy losses against the Empire and in Hammerfell. Thus they are in no position to commit huge conquering armies to take and hold one province at a time.

As for the long run of things, you never know what can happen. A new Empire might be born, or a new type of alliance forged, one never knows.

@Eltucu speaking of racism vs Dunmers in Windhelm and Nord racism in general, I don't know why people overlook 2 simple counterexamples, both in Windhelm: Nurelion, the owner of the White Phial, who despite being an Altmer came to Windhelm and founded his potion shop. Also Niranye, the armor trader/fence in the marketplace.

I like how Niranye basically tells you the Dunmer are stuck in the Gray Quarter because they're stubborn, inflexible people who are obsessed with doing things in their way only. This also explains where this so-called "racism" came from: after the Dunmer came en-masse to Windhelm and Skyrim in general, Nords became afraid that the latter will dilute their culture by trying to impose their Dunmer ways upon them.

To be sure, there's some racism going on and a lot of people say bad things about other races. However, to make an IRL comment, I know that under these Political Correctness edicts of the past 2 decades people and Americans in particular get very inflamed by all the overt racist statements in Skyrim, but to be honest this is just caused by Nords venting their anger and fear. What is infinitely more important in diagnosing the level of racism in the game is looking at what Nords actually DO, not just say. As such, the racism is barely moderate in the game, the most you get are some ugly comments and various races not being allowed to live in various places.

We should, however, take context into account as well. The Civil War makes the Nords distrustful of all outsiders who can often be Imperial or Admeri spies. This is why Windhelm compartmentalizes the Dunmer to the Gray Quarter and the Argonians to the docks. However we can see that this is not true of all of Skyrim: Riften, a Stormcloak city at the start, has Argonians and Dunmer working everywhere in the city.Actually, in most cities, one or more of the Jarl's court is not a Nord (Balgruuf's housecarl, Layla's steward, Igmund's housecarl, Korir's court "mage", etc.).