230 replies to this topic

[Linsolv]

That said, the problems that the Dunmer have are nothing compared to the Argonians, and those aren't comparable to the problems of the Khajiit, which is a point I made above. And what it suggests to me is that if I feel ashamed of betraying Balgruuf the Greater, because I liked him a lot, and he doesn't allow Argonians or Khajiit into his city, then I shouldn't feel bad about liking someone because he has a bad rep and basically the same policies.

I don't think Khajiit are in that much trouble. Most Khajiits in this game are traders and explain themselves they came this far land risking danger for fortune oppertunities. And they are actually making good profits of it! Keeping them outside of capital is public order matter; and Khajiits say it's harsh but tolerable. Clearly they don't consider Skyrim as residence so just fine as long as profit goes around.

On the other hands, the inhabitants of Whiterun regardless of races are all concerned in Balgruuf as 'my people'. They are being treated fairly just as Nord locals. Hell, the housecarl is even a dark elf repect well each other. I like Balgruuf too. He takes responsibility but being sick of a powerhouse.

Dark elves are in real trouble I think, as they lost their homeland and immigrated here quite long time ago. Maybe they deserve it as they enslaved others in their prosper times in Morrowind. If that's true; Ulfric's reign may also deserve it. But I think no one deserves such thingies if you ask. Why can't just get along with others. I am sick of politics!

And most blacks didn't complain in the early 20th century about having separate schools. It was what it was, and there was no changing it. It was only thanks to the work of a few dedicated individuals that we have even the tiny bit of equality that we have today. They are traders because what else can be done without being able to even own a simple home? If you talk to them, they long for an escape from the cold. Which, I don't know if you realize, is easily found inside any of the Whiterun, or even Windhelm, homes. They're not stupid, I'm certain they realize that on the other side of that wall things are a dozen times better, but that's not an option for them.

[Dan3345]

First of all, they all are racist in TOS. The Khajiit, the Dunmer, the Argonians, the Redguards, all of them have lines in which they either elevate their own race and heritage or talk with disdain about others. Somehow that's not perceived as racism. Only when it comes to the Nords, then it becomes racism. Art imitates life? Because in real life racism is often synonymous with white supremacism, it doesn't seem to apply for blacks, jews or asians.

This ^^^ times a thousand!!! I agree Ulfric is a racist thalmor pawn, but all the races in the game are each racist in their own right.

I believe I read a book in game which claimed that Ulfric was enlisted by the thalmor (or perhaps freed intentionally by them) so that he could create the insurrection and weaken the empire from its (who would have thought) weakest point. The thalmor are looking for a beachhead, and Ulfric is going to give it to them, knowingly or not.

[midtek]

And most blacks didn't complain in the early 20th century about having separate schools. It was what it was, and there was no changing it. It was only thanks to the work of a few dedicated individuals that we have even the tiny bit of equality that we have today. They are traders because what else can be done without being able to even own a simple home? If you talk to them, they long for an escape from the cold. Which, I don't know if you realize, is easily found inside any of the Whiterun, or even Windhelm, homes. They're not stupid, I'm certain they realize that on the other side of that wall things are a dozen times better, but that's not an option for them.

Khajiit traders are wealthy caravan with well armed bodyguards provided by themselves selling exotic goods and weapons, often saying that the war and dragon states make risks but better profits.They are pro businessmen even a lady lives in Whiterun willing to accompany. Being outside of wall is no good but still they are in much better situation compare to Dunmers and Argonians in Windhelm.

The living of Argonians and Dunmers in Windhelm are worst to their siblings live in other cities. I was glad with the ending of Imperial line that Brunwulf Free-Winter replaces Ulfric as new Jarl declearing tolerant administration, renovating slum quarters, and ultimately: making steps to 'assimilate' Argonians into Windhelm. This war-verteran of Great War truely knows all people were suffered by the war and nationalism cannot be the answer even in nords way.

In Ulfric's reign to compare, a drunk Roiff roams around Grey Quarter at night insulting the Grey-skins knowing that they cannot touch him. Some might say Dunmers in Windhelm had it coming as they were more likly to refuse assimilation which was differed from the path of Dunmers in Riften (the book Scourge of Grey Quarter suggests) But the book also imply that dark elves made Skyrim for refuge by 'the condolence' of long-rival Nords and successfuly got into Skyrim life. We know Ulfric's father was more generous to these 'outsiders'.

But Great War changed many Nord locals into cold-eyed and Nationalism arose. Pity for that, but it happens in the history like a routine.

Edited by midtek, 19 February 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[Linsolv]

I honestly can't even fathom a world where you think that the Dunmer are even CLOSE to comparable to the Khajiit and the Argonians.

There is ONE PERSON who spends time with Khajiit, and she's a lower-class woman who wants to learn their trade and nobody else is willing to teach her. So she has to bribe them with one of the priciest pieces of raw material in the game world. Think about that. One character supports the Khajiit. And she only likes them because they're willing to teach her something. And you think that some petty words from a homeless bum are as hurtful as being despised by everyone in the entire country and not allowed to own property.

Why don't you look in a mirror, pal?

[midtek]

I honestly can't even fathom a world where you think that the Dunmer are even CLOSE to comparable to the Khajiit and the Argonians.

There is ONE PERSON who spends time with Khajiit, and she's a lower-class woman who wants to learn their trade and nobody else is willing to teach her. So she has to bribe them with one of the priciest pieces of raw material in the game world. Think about that. One character supports the Khajiit. And she only likes them because they're willing to teach her something. And you think that some petty words from a homeless bum are as hurtful as being despised by everyone in the entire country and not allowed to own property.

Why don't you look in a mirror, pal?

Pal, talk with Khajiit traders at the outside of Solitude, Whiterun, Riften or hit at the road. They say they miss Elsweyr heartly but still willing to be a caravan far beyond for oppertunities.They are not local to this land, nothing to struggle to live, easily can go back to their land or go elsewhere when their business are done. Typical caravan, not like someones already lived for a generation and have possessions not to lose.

This kind of merchants always happen whenever warfare happens between other countries, not to mention they risk the hardship, danger, cold eyes from local. Some might detest them like some Nords in game say, but they have their own reasons of living. Those Khajiits are not too specialized in armament anyway. I can't think their situation is worse than Windhelm.

About Dunmers, they can be disgusting folks as we experienced in Morrowind. But when Red Mountain erupted, they greatly suffered; lost homeland turning to ashes, slaughtered by enraged Argonians, had to escape. Even 'stout' hearted Nords showed sympathy in the book Scourge of Grey Quarter say. Many Dunmers still have the cruelity. Others got well settled like many brethrens in Cyrodills did.

Edited by midtek, 19 February 2012 - 06:59 AM.

[Kyuukei]

I believe I read a book in game which claimed that Ulfric was enlisted by the thalmor (or perhaps freed intentionally by them) so that he could create the insurrection and weaken the empire from its (who would have thought) weakest point. The thalmor are looking for a beachhead, and Ulfric is going to give it to them, knowingly or not.

Sort of, but not quite. Here is the dossier in question:

Spoiler

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of the Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background:

Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable form the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the change of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

So while he accepted direct contact from the Thalmor out of pragmatism at first, he is generally extremely uncooperative now, and the Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks to win any more than the Imperials. It's made repeatedly apparent throughout the Stormcloak questline that he absolutely hates the Thalmor now, and one way or the other the Dovahkiin serves as a completely unanticpated spanner in their plan - regardless of which side you choose.

Edited by Kyuukei, 19 February 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[midtek]

Ulfric is a strong Nationalist who understands the bitter heart of Nord people well enough. He and his Stormcloaks shares the ideal that Nord must reclaim the right of the land and of worshipping Talos. If Hammerfell already liberated themselves by the same reason, why Skyrim could not be? His resentment toward outsiders are excessive which was devolped during his miserable times. He counts everyone as an obstacle on his way who doesn't share 'his way' of Nord's Heart. It doesn't make Ulfric excessively bad, as the era is not like relatively peaceful worldwide state we live in nowdays.

General Tullius is a practical Imperial officer who has nothing about Nordic Heart. His hard-edged mind only see stormcloaks as rebellions. he disdains Nord's Heart openly even to his trustful local lieutenant. But in the end of Imperial storyline, he finally learns to respect it, while never get used to it.

Thalmor is something like Nazzi SS instiution of Aldmeri Dominion, that consider themsleves so superior to lower kinds. Their twisted intellect only does good use in running opertaion and intelligence against 'lower' kind of enemies. But we see Imperial nobles from Cyrodiil often consider themselves superior to Skyrim locals just as the same.

To conclude, the era is full of conflicts only just got out of Great War a moment ago to confront another serious war upcoming. It must be in the pot full of imperialism, nationalism and racism in everywhere. I'm xxxxing happy being out of this kind of aggressions in my life, not yet. I'm exhausted considering this matter, my final post, just to about playing actual games. Have fun folks!

[Linsolv]

I honestly can't even fathom a world where you think that the Dunmer are even CLOSE to comparable to the Khajiit and the Argonians.

There is ONE PERSON who spends time with Khajiit, and she's a lower-class woman who wants to learn their trade and nobody else is willing to teach her. So she has to bribe them with one of the priciest pieces of raw material in the game world. Think about that. One character supports the Khajiit. And she only likes them because they're willing to teach her something. And you think that some petty words from a homeless bum are as hurtful as being despised by everyone in the entire country and not allowed to own property.

Why don't you look in a mirror, pal?

Pal, talk with Khajiit traders at the outside of Solitude, Whiterun, Riften or hit at the road. They say they miss Elsweyr heartly but still willing to be a caravan far beyond for oppertunities.They are not local to this land, nothing to struggle to live, easily can go back to their land or go elsewhere when their business are done. Typical caravan, not like someones already lived for a generation and have possessions not to lose.

This kind of merchants always happen whenever warfare happens between other countries, not to mention they risk the hardship, danger, cold eyes from local. Some might detest them like some Nords in game say, but they have their own reasons of living. Those Khajiits are not too specialized in armament anyway. I can't think their situation is worse than Windhelm.

About Dunmers, they can be disgusting folks as we experienced in Morrowind. But when Red Mountain erupted, they greatly suffered; lost homeland turning to ashes, slaughtered by enraged Argonians, had to escape. Even 'stout' hearted Nords showed sympathy in the book Scourge of Grey Quarter say. Many Dunmers still have the cruelity. Others got well settled like many brethrens in Cyrodills did.

For fun, I did just that. I went to Whiterun and talked to Ri'saad and Khayla (Atahbah had no unique dialogue); then I went to Solitude and talked to Ma'jhad and Ma'dran (their third member also had no dialogue, and I didn't get her name). Their comments were consistent enough in painting a picture that I haven't bothered with the Khajiit outside of Riften, or outside of Dawnstar. It's possible that things changed drastically, but not likely.

In case you think I'm making things up, I'll include in spoiler tags the conversation lines I got, and a formal discussion after the box.

Outside of Whiterun:

Spoiler

Ri'saad

(Why sell your goods in Skyrim?)
"An astute question, for we are far from home, and this is a cold, hard land.
The wise trader finds the best opportunities, even if he must travel far to find them. Skyrim is a ripe opportunity indeed.
The dragons and the war have scared many other traders away, but for those with courage, there is much profit to be made."
(I'm curious about your homeland.)
"The Khajiit hail from a distant land called Elsweyr, bordered on the north by Cyrodiil and the south by the glistening blue waters of the sea.
Elsweyr is an arid land of deserts and rocky canyons, where the sun shimes warmly, always.
There are cities so ancient, the sands have swallowed them whole. But now I will say no more, for I miss my home greatly."

Khayla

"Khajiit are not welcome in the cities, so we make our camps outside the walls."
"It is a strange sight, the white flakes that sometimes fall from the sky."
"The wind blows bitter cold in this place."
"The roads of Skyrim lead to many dangers."
"A welcome to you, fellow traveller."
"How high the mountains of Skyrim rise."
"Some come to buy, but others come to steal. Khajiit shows no mercy to thieves."
"Khajiit is just a guard, and has no wares to sell."
"There is no trust for Khajiit in this place."
"The air is so clear in Skyrim, one can see forever."
"The road makes this one weary."
"May your road lead you to warm sands."
"Yes?"
"Need something?"
"The warm sand of Elswyr is far away from here."
"The longer we travel the roads of Skyrim, the more empty this land seems."
"Blessings of the moons upon you, traveler."
"How can I assist, hmm?"
"This one needs something?"
"There is much beauty in this place."

Outside of Solitude:

Spoiler

Ma'jhad

"Do you seek to make a purchase?"
"Hmm?"
"Need something?"
"Yes?"
"May the sun keep you warm, even in this bitter cold."
"The wind blows bitter cold in this place."
"I hope you will find a warmer welcome in your travels than we have found in ours."
"This one needs something?"
"The longer we travel the roads of Skyrim, the more empty this land seems."
"How can I assist, hmm?"

Ma'dran

(Has the war made your travels difficult?)
"Quite the opposite, in fact.
The soldiers are some of our best customers, for we offer supplies and wares they cannot obtain by other means.
It was Ri'saad's idea to come here now, while the land is in turmoil. Where others saw only danger, he saw opportunity."

Both paint a very consistent picture.

The entire set of caravans is run by Ri'saad. Ri'saad has made the choice that he will endure some hardship, as he believes (and, if dialogue is to be believed, rightly so) that he will be able to become wealthy by bearing with the hardships temporarily. The dialogue of both caravan traders, Ri'saad and Ma'dran, paint a picture of men who are putting out of their mind how bad things are for them, personally, because that is what they must do to succeed. Additionally, they make no reference to their treatment. They say only that the bigger picture demands that they put aside their personal wishes in order to do something that is more important: make money.

Therefor, it is the dialogue of the guard-trainers Khayla and Ma'jhad, who are more indicative of the larger scheme of things, as they have no such need to maintain personal willpower--they do as they are told, so their opinions can wander.

The dialogue of the guard-trainers falls into four classes:
1) Generic greetings. These are shared, I believe, by all NPCs in one form or another. Things like "Hmm?" or "Need something?"
2) Comments about how different Skyrim is from Elsweyr. "You can see forever" and the like. These comments mean very little from a character perspective.
3) The most obviously important comments, complaints about their treatment. Both Khayla and Ma'jhad have lines to this effect, namely "The Khajiit are not welcome in the cities, so we make our camps outside the walls," and "I hope you find a warmer welcome in your travels than we have in ours." These speak directly to the point I have been making above, and that's why I will try to address them in full at the end, rather than now.
4) Flavor lines. These require some analysis and discussion to really get to the heart of how they are relevant to the topic. Two trends quickly emerge regarding the Khajiit's strange speech patterns:

a) Warm = good.
b) Khajiit and This One are sometimes used as subject pronouns.

The first part goes straight to the issue of how the Khajiit feel about Skyrim. The lands of Skyrim are cold and hard, as they say, but it is not until further consideration that what that really means is "Skyrim is misfortune." What we have here are a group that is completely apart and separated not only from their homes and their families, but from the CONCEPT of happiness. Linguistically, you only get two synonymous words when the concepts are conflated, and in the case of Khajiit they consider warmth to BE happiness and good fortune.

The second part discusses the loneliness that they must feel, which is not mentioned directly by any of the Khajiit NPCs. Again, we have two unlike concepts being used as synonymous. The language demonstrates a culture which is at its heart not individualistic, but is very much about the group. It's for this reason that "Khajiit" and "I" are often used interchangeably. However, in Skyrim, there are only 27 Khajiit, and never in groups larger than three. So once again, they are isolated and separated from a part of their culture so ingrained that it has manifested linguistically. Instead of a near-indistinguishable part of a complex tapestry of society, as they would be in Elsweyr, they are alone.

Finally, we can come back to the complaints of the guard-trainers.

[EDIT: Forgot to address point 3] For Ri'saad, and to a lesser extent Ma'dran, there is a very real payoff at the end of this, however. Their courageous and heroic efforts might pay off big-time. They are the people who stand the most to gain. However, each caravan troupe has three members, and only one of them is at all gaining from the sale of these wares. The guard-trainers make money from training on the side, and from being paid, presumably, a salary. Because Ri'saad has asked them to help (according to some semi-canon literature, the 'Ri' prefix suggests the leader of a tribe or city) they are willing to put aside their personal wishes for the good of their people. Little can be known about the third member of each troupe, as they have no unique dialogue and their role is not explained.

The Khajiit do not "have it good." They are bearing with inconceivable despair for what they hope will only be a few short years, and then they can go home and reap the rewards of their nearly-unbearable efforts.

Edited by Linsolv, 19 February 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[Linsolv]

Sorry, double post.

Edited by Linsolv, 19 February 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[midtek]

a) Warm = good.
b) Khajiit and This One are sometimes used as subject pronouns.

The first part goes straight to the issue of how the Khajiit feel about Skyrim. The lands of Skyrim are cold and hard, as they say, but it is not until further consideration that what that really means is "Skyrim is misfortune." What we have here are a group that is completely apart and separated not only from their homes and their families, but from the CONCEPT of happiness. Linguistically, you only get two synonymous words when the concepts are conflated, and in the case of Khajiit they consider warmth to BE happiness and good fortune.

The second part discusses the loneliness that they must feel, which is not mentioned directly by any of the Khajiit NPCs. Again, we have two unlike concepts being used as synonymous. The language demonstrates a culture which is at its heart not individualistic, but is very much about the group. It's for this reason that "Khajiit" and "I" are often used interchangeably. However, in Skyrim, there are only 27 Khajiit, and never in groups larger than three. So once again, they are isolated and separated from a part of their culture so ingrained that it has manifested linguistically. Instead of a near-indistinguishable part of a complex tapestry of society, as they would be in Elsweyr, they are alone.

Warm=good? What are you thinking, man? Of course it's something like a business proprietor working abroad in suburb areas of Russia or somewhere in long term. Of course it's frackin cold and homesickness suffering. Some locals never welcome you even for five years no speaking, some swear in their language, juveneile brats mock at you 'go home your country'. But it's a job I chose while others do the same.

This can't be bitter than Palestine refugees driven out from their land ahead of constant dangers in losing their land, customs, properties while armed nationalists often visit residences with torchs and rifles. (Joe Sacco exposes pretty well how things go on there with his fair viewdpoint as a third party.)

In Windhelm, you look around catiously in the place, you find Ulfric and radical nationalists are thinking that Dunmer, Argonians, Khajhits shouldn't be allowed in Skyrim thus should be segregated to their slum with lowest wage. Their extraterritoriality leaves Dunmer and Argonian farmers to bandits with no protection Than Brunwulf Free-Winter points out Argonians must remain outside of the city 'simply for their own safety'. These things turn much better when Brunwulf replace Ulfric and bcome a Jarl.

If you think Caravan life in 15th century was harsher than Jewish people lived in their ghetto in Europe (it existed in that time),
you are too innocent, pal. Check this for Reference how things go in Windhelm.

Jewish ghettos in Europe existed because Jews were viewed as foreigners due to their non-Christian beliefs in a Renaissance Christian environment. As a result, Jews were placed under strict regulations throughout many European cities. The character of ghettos varied through times. In some cases, they comprised a Jewish quarter, the area of a city traditionally inhabited by Jews. In many instances, ghettos were places of terrible poverty and during periods of population growth, ghettos had narrow streets and tall, crowded houses. Residents had their own justice system. Around the ghetto stood walls that, during pogroms, were closed from inside to protect the community, but from the outside during Christmas, Pesach, and Easter Week to prevent the Jews from leaving during those times.

So that's why I head off Ulfric but still saying he's not excessively bad. That happened like commonplace in the history, and the era of Skyrim is turbulent.

Edited by midtek, 20 February 2012 - 01:17 AM.