230 replies to this topic

[Linsolv]

a) Warm = good.
b) Khajiit and This One are sometimes used as subject pronouns.

The first part goes straight to the issue of how the Khajiit feel about Skyrim. The lands of Skyrim are cold and hard, as they say, but it is not until further consideration that what that really means is "Skyrim is misfortune." What we have here are a group that is completely apart and separated not only from their homes and their families, but from the CONCEPT of happiness. Linguistically, you only get two synonymous words when the concepts are conflated, and in the case of Khajiit they consider warmth to BE happiness and good fortune.

The second part discusses the loneliness that they must feel, which is not mentioned directly by any of the Khajiit NPCs. Again, we have two unlike concepts being used as synonymous. The language demonstrates a culture which is at its heart not individualistic, but is very much about the group. It's for this reason that "Khajiit" and "I" are often used interchangeably. However, in Skyrim, there are only 27 Khajiit, and never in groups larger than three. So once again, they are isolated and separated from a part of their culture so ingrained that it has manifested linguistically. Instead of a near-indistinguishable part of a complex tapestry of society, as they would be in Elsweyr, they are alone.

Warm=good? What are you thinking, man? Of course it's something like a business proprietor working abroad in suburb areas of Russia or somewhere in long term. Of course it's frackin cold and homesickness suffering. Some locals never welcome you even for five years no speaking, some swear in their language, juveneile brats mock at you 'go home your country'. But it's a job I chose while others do the same.

This can't be bitter than Palestine refugees driven out from their land ahead of constant dangers in losing their land, customs, properties while armed nationalists often visit residences with torchs and rifles. (Joe Sacco exposes pretty well how things go on there with his fair viewdpoint as a third party.)

In Windhelm, you look around catiously in the place, you find Ulfric and radical nationalists are thinking that Dunmer, Argonians, Khajhits shouldn't be allowed in Skyrim thus should be segregated to their slum with lowest wage. Their extraterritoriality leaves Dunmer and Argonian farmers to bandits with no protection Than Brunwulf Free-Winter points out Argonians must remain outside of the city 'simply for their own safety'. These things turn much better when Brunwulf replace Ulfric and bcome a Jarl.

If you think Caravan life in 15th century was harsher than Jewish people lived in their ghetto in Europe (it existed in that time),
you are too innocent, pal. Check this for Reference how things go in Windhelm.

Jewish ghettos in Europe existed because Jews were viewed as foreigners due to their non-Christian beliefs in a Renaissance Christian environment. As a result, Jews were placed under strict regulations throughout many European cities. The character of ghettos varied through times. In some cases, they comprised a Jewish quarter, the area of a city traditionally inhabited by Jews. In many instances, ghettos were places of terrible poverty and during periods of population growth, ghettos had narrow streets and tall, crowded houses. Residents had their own justice system. Around the ghetto stood walls that, during pogroms, were closed from inside to protect the community, but from the outside during Christmas, Pesach, and Easter Week to prevent the Jews from leaving during those times.

If you want to make this about history, let's talk about the equivalent to the Khajiit, the Romani people, or "gypsies" as they are sometimes (wrongly and offensively) called.

During World War II, the Nazis and the Ustaša embarked on a systematic genocide of the Romani, a process known in Romani as the Porajmos. Romanies were marked for extermination and sentenced to forced labor and imprisonment in concentration camps.

They were often killed on sight, especially by the Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) on the Eastern Front. The total number of victims has been variously estimated at between 220,000 to 1,500,000; even the lowest number would make the Porajmos one of the largest mass murders in history.

Antiziganism (or Anti-Romanyism), unlike most other forms of racism which are, while very much a problem, on the fringes of society and rarely discussed in public, is still very much a common and accepted practice. In fact, the film Chocolat was about this very form of racism, which is still to this day going on.

[midtek]

That's what you really missing the point.

These Khajiits are Pro Traders from their own land Elseweyr ruled by Khajiiti government (which is currently not in good internal situation in Lore). How can they be matched with Romany? The Khajiit traders in Skyrim are well organized the bodyguard of which is armed with Steel Plate Armor and excellent martial prowess.

You see in the game, there are much other local caravans are dead and deserted on the roads attacked by bandits or by this dangerous land while Khajiit traders cope with anything on the roads with good profits. They came for that, professional traders, must be a hardship not to deny, for better oppertunites than in their homeland. That's why they are staying.

Other kind of Khajiit in this game is J'zargo which is a mage student and M'aiq the Liar a lone wonderer which is a funny folk.

I don't know why you are so standing in this 'Khajiits are poor' matter which is getting inappropriate to Ulfric & his Windhelm thread.
Maybe starting a thread about Khajiit would be good for all, but not much to be as Skyrim seldomly portrait Khajiit not like was in Morrowind.
I lost all concerns about posting, just becoming more curious about why are you so concerned about Khajiits. I live with two cats btw.

Edited by midtek, 20 February 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[sheepskin]

Question; is it possible to be an isolationist, wanting a single unified nation for your people: yet still exhibit an open mind and tactful behavior towards outsiders, foreigners, and visitors?

I'm that guy basically. If only the Stormcloaks weren't so harsh on outsiders...

[sukeban]

On Khajiits: IMO these guys are on the top of the "oppressed minority" heap in Skyrim (admittedly, a rather WTF manner in which to think of this). Whilst it isn't exactly ideal that they are barred from entering the major cities, they are also there entirely by choice* and, as such, are free to leave anytime they come to the conclusion that the immense profits they are making are not worth potentially dying over. As previously stated, they are all aware of this--likely they were aware of this before any of them ever left Elsweyr. They are shrewd businessmen, "pro traders" as someone before me said; but they are also complete opportunists, exploiting the turmoil in Skyrim (not unlike Belethor) to maximize the profits made from selling their wares. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, and if they survive their time in Skyrim, they will all likely return home to Elsweyr rich. But--ask the Dunmer in Windhelm if they live there by choice, the answer will be "no." They were either born there or relocated there out of desperation after fleeing Morrowind. They have no home to return to. Full stop.

*The caravan leaders all seem to work for Ri'saad and are probably taking in a nice cut of the earnings. Others, like Kharjo, are more conscripts than salarymen or partners. IIRC, he says he gambled, drank, and got thrown in jail. Ri'saad bailed him out and now he is repaying him. It can hardly be laid at the feet of the Nords if he is unhappy in Skyrim as it is only the generous/predatory (depends on your point of view, I suppose) practices of his own people that are compelling him to remain there. Had he not drank, etc. he would still be in Elsweyr.

Furthermore, I always smile wryly when I hear the Khajiit say, "They think we are all thieves... and smugglers." This is, of course, because they _all_ literally _are_ thieves and smugglers (unknown in case of M'aik and Peyrite devotee). Even J'zargo says that he is at the college to learn magic and also to, "Find powerful items... preferably small ones that will fit in pockets," heavily implying that he too is but a magic-wielding sneak thief. Which is fine, as I do love my skooma (esp. with mods) and my moon sugar. I appreciate that they are the only ones bold enough to import it. But, I do not think that allowing them inside the city walls would change the fact that they traffic in stolen goods (now easier to obtain inside the city walls) and peddle drugs. So the Nords are far from irrational in insisting that they ply their eminently lucrative trade just slightly removed from Skyrim's major "metropolitan" areas.

In any case, you all know how the saying goes: "You can take the Khajiit out of Elsweyr, but you can't take the Elsweyr out of the Khajiit" keke.

Edited by sukeban, 21 February 2012 - 04:25 AM.

[magiii]

a little sum up. ulfric is a racism guy( which is not something new, especiall or unique to him. nearly everyone in tamriel are racist) he killed Torryg in a fair duel (as discussed before th'um IS a part of nordic culture) he behaves bad against dark elves and argonians that live in windhelm( although dark elves are so naive and proud to try and make gray quarters a better place) he cares about nords(which is good for a high king of skyrim)his victory speech shows that he is a caring person and he is literate also sparing elisif shows his political smartness. he shouldnt be fearing thalmor attack becuase of the reasons said above. missed anything?

[midtek]

1. Using Thu'um in duel?
Torygg went to 'Sovngarde' where you encounter him, good and fearless guy, speaks Ulfric is a coward.
Some witness say a fair combat while others say the shout weakened Torygg as 'he was no more after the Voice'.
I think Ulfric had to use Thu'um to demonstrate his superiority of being High King.
If he fought without Thu'um, that could be an honorable fight for both even Ulfric was likely to be a winner.
And because Ulfric had to be the High King; Torygg must die; the best the miserable way.

2. Nearly everyone in Tamriel are racist?
Most Nords in Skyrim get along with another and well mixed up.
Nords often emphasize the hospitality toward 'newcomer' is a traditonal virtue all true Nords must follow.
Most people stand for him or his country or his 'community or what all across Tamriel. That doesn't make racism too commonplace, Yet.
The Great War and the upcoming are accelerating bad parts.

3. Ulfric is a racist?
Ulfric's contempt not only goes to his enemy the Empire & Dominion but also to non-nord-ethnic civilians live in his land.
That could be stopped in that preference but he enacted the laws. He's a 'dangerous' racist. (like many sovereigns were)

4. Ulfric cares about Nords?
He cares his people a lot incarnating himself as the Nords and Talos.
He dies for his people, dies for Talos, kills everyone opposing his way even the opponent is a Nord or his legal king.
That makes two sides of High King he will be. Perhaps Skyrim needs its hero more than 'false' Imperial protection.
Maybe he's an incarnation of Talos like Jarl Skald believes.

5. Ulfric shows political smartass and shouldn't be fearing Thalmor?
He's a man combined of the prowess both in martial and politic.
If Hammerfall made it, maybe he can do it.

6. To sum by myself;
Ulfric Stormcloak claims the right of the land and of worshipping Talos from the Empire.
A large portion of Nords agree with this, joined the army in his name of Stormcloak, revere him as a hero.
As a hero people believe, he is a smart politician, capable warrior, good tactician just like Talos was.
But Talos was not a racist. That's why many players feel sick in Ulfric after joining Stormcloak, start a new game, make thread.

Excluding moral superiority,
he definitely stands against the Empire and the Dominion, and might be capable of repelling them both like Hammerfall did.
He's such a strong personality and does the role in the game. you follow or not, it's up to you Dragonborn.

7. Behind Story
(And many have already suggested, Dragonborn is The One affects the war and saves Skyrim upmost. Well done! )

Edited by midtek, 21 February 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[sukeban]

@midtek: Ulfric goes to Sovngarde as well if you side with the Imps before completing the MQ. Whilst that might only imply that he died honorably, I think it also means that he lived his own life as a proper Nord warrior, including his "forbidden" use of the Th'ume against Torygg. I suppose there's an element of that old debate about legal =/= moral in the sense of the Th'ume. I agree with you in thinking that using the Th'ume was just Ulfric's way of showing off, and that he could have easily bested Torygg without it. But even if it was illegal or taboo or forbidden or blasphemous or whatever, it does not necessarily mean that it was morally "wrong" (hence his appearance in Sovngarde) to use it in this context.

I agree with everything else you said except that Ulfric is a "dangerous racist." He is certainly bigoted, but most of this bigotry is expressed through his ambivalence to the minorities in Windhelm rather than through an active persecution, a la pogroms, of them. He is more of a latent racist, placing the needs, during a time of scarcity, of his ethnic group over the needs of others within his domain. While I don't in any way agree with this, it is not exactly rare, either in Tamriel or within our own world. If a person is killed in the inner city in the USA*, do you really think that they receive the same police treatment that a person victimized in an affluent area receives? Heck no, they don't**. Now, in this case, that is more to do with socioeconomic station rather than race, per se, but the two are, of course, inextricably linked, almost to the point of being a proxy for the other, at least IMO. Now, does that make our government leaders "dangerously racist" or does it just make them callous and, yes, probably rather a bit bigoted. Compound this fact with the fact that in Skyrim there is a civil war ravaging the land, and you can sort of see how Ulfric is using his scare resources to improve the lot of his own people first, all others second. Not justified or "right," but it is not exactly slavery or a death camp, which is what I imagine when I think of a "dangerous racist."

*I realize you might not live in the USA.
**Apologies for talking politics in the thread.

[midtek]

@sukeban Well, I don't live in USA but I know well how it can be annoying everything is blamed in the name of racisim.
Some foreign students were really irritating on that matter before.

Still, Windhelm is the case that Nords' xenophobia, separatism, extremism, hatred, racial supremacy are crossing the border in discrimination to racism. It's a matter of time few drunkens set fire on Grey Quarter and no one get punished will detonate the worse, which already Rolff roaming Gray Quarters every night insulting 'the gray-skins' in game. If Ulfric cannot be blamed as full racist, he's still misguiding the matter much be worsened by next successors and generations. Pretty dangerous as he's the ruler inspiring his people and already what Windhelm became and becoming.

[sukeban]

@midtek

I agree. His (in)actions are definitely setting a highly questionable precedent that others might seize and expand upon. I don't think that Ulfric personally hates any of the other races, but who is to say that the next Jarl of Windhelm won't (he doesn't appear to have any children, so I don't even know who that would be). Or, yeah, Rolff could get drunk and visit them knowing that he (probably) won't be punished. No good can come of that, for sure.

OR, maybe the Stormcloaks win the civil war and then some coalition of men, argonians, and dark elves (basically everybody except the thalmor and khajiits) defeat the thalmor in an epic battle. with the threat of elven domination removed, perhaps tensions in windhelm/the rest of skyrim begin to ease. During WWII Americans interned the Japanese because they questioned their loyalty; however, nowadays nobody in the usa thinks that japanese-americans are secretly out to get them.

I would say that there's still hope that ulfric and most of the windhelm nords (probably not rolff) will see the error of their ways.

[midtek]

OR perhaps the next Jarl will be Rolff? Rol, just kidding.
The more possible scenario I think is that Stormcloaks refuse outsiders enlisting to their army (the population is insignificant anyway), saying 'No needs your help. Nords is the one who defend Skyrim since it belongs to Nords.' stoutly. The nation Ulfric and Stormcloaks argue is 'a nation-state' backboned by 'belongs to Nords'. It's cleary different to how the United States was created. Although Aragonian Dragonborn player can walk in & out freely with no comments, race isolation and other discriminations by the law is the most threating that Windhelm offers. It should be withdrawn even after Stormcloaks win, for long term national state.

Anyway, I love Brunwulf Free-Winter more becoming new Jarl and restoring the order. Maybe the Empire would rise strong again (perhaps by Dragonborn dynasty restored? ) enough to break the shity treaty and bring back Talos.

As Talos is the first Emperor who built the Empire, it's not a shame only for Nords but for whole nation losing his divine part.