230 replies to this topic

[Matth85]

They don't. They found you with a bunch of Stormcloak they were planning to ambush

They found us with Ulfric. The leader, and sole reason for the war. Nothing in the whole world could make you look more guilty than that! Heck, I would have done the same in that position.

I see nothing wrong in what the general did. On the other hand, I see millions of fault in what Ulfric is doing.
At leas the general is having some sense of honor and respect the Nords, whilst Ulfric craps on the High King and follows it up by crapping on anything not supporting him.

[LobselVith66]

They don't. They found you with a bunch of Stormcloak they were planning to ambush

They found us with Ulfric. The leader, and sole reason for the war. Nothing in the whole world could make you look more guilty than that! Heck, I would have done the same in that position.

I see nothing wrong in what the general did. On the other hand, I see millions of fault in what Ulfric is doing.

It's clear that the protagonist isn't allied with Ulfric, or even a member of the Stormcloaks. Hadvar makes this perfectly clear in his dialogue, and your execution is ordered regardless.

At leas the general is having some sense of honor and respect the Nords, whilst Ulfric craps on the High King and follows it up by crapping on anything not supporting him.

Like the Thalmor. Thalmor supporters. Thalmor allies. The group of people who are walking across Skyrim with impunity, kidnapping people, torturing them, and killing them. Again, it's not as black and white as you seem to think it is. Tullius and Ulfric aren't saints, they are two people with flaws. There are flaws with the Legion and the Stormcloaks. I suppose it's an issue of whether the strengths of the respective group outweight the flaws for some people.

[Matth85]

Like the Thalmor. Thalmor supporters. Thalmor allies. The group of people who are walking across Skyrim with impunity, kidnapping people, torturing them, and killing them. Again, it's not as black and white as you seem to think it is. Tullius and Ulfric aren't saints, they are two people with flaws. There are flaws with the Legion and the Stormcloaks. I suppose it's an issue of whether the strengths of the respective group outweight the flaws for some people.

Black and white? Please, do not put words into my mouth. It's been stated a million times it is a big grayzone with 3 baddies involved, where 1 is better than the next.

It's clear that the protagonist isn't allied with Ulfric, or even a member of the Stormcloaks

The intor is the excecution of Ulfric. You happen to be caught WITH Ulfric. Could you be seen as less suspicous?
Imagen you were the General. You got Ulfric! The reason the CIVIL war started. You got a bunch of his men, and 2 which do not got the Stormcloak suit. Would you honestly care? Heck, I would have slaughtered Ulfric and everybody in a mile in a second. Instead they got a prayer and what-not. Tullius did what any decent military ranked man would do, and any man not overly sensitive over killing people. Your name was not on the list? Oh, that surely means you are innocent, right? Wether Hadvar thinks otherwise, is not helping. Hadvar does not got the responsiblity that Tullius got, and does not feel the effect as much as the general.
If you knew you were a few seconds from ending a civil war, giving you a chance to build up and repel the Thalmor, would you really care about the non-named guy caught at the same area as Ulfric? I know I wouldn't. I know of no military leader who would.

Tullius and Ulfric aren't saints, they are two people with flaws. There are flaws with the Legion and the Stormcloaks. I suppose it's an issue of whether the strengths of the respective group outweight the flaws for some people.

That is true. Ulffric acts like a small German man we know, and Tullius acts ... well, like a military leader who got too much power.
However, with all cards on the table: Who would you prefer?

Ulfric and the Stormcloak? Good short term goal, no long term goal, terrible motive, wants to bring the old barabric ways back to Skyrim, kick out anything but Nords and kill anybody not helping them in the war -- as done before.
Tullius and the Imperials? Good long time goal, motive connected to the goal, actually got a plan, wants to strengten the Empire -- which, remember, Skyrim was a part of before and had less problems than now.

They both want to take down the Thalmor, more or less.
Tullius wants them gone so Tamriel is in no more danger from them.
Ulfric wants to kill them since he hates Mers and they tortured him.

The Empire/Imperials got a plan, after the civil war.
Ulfric doesn't see past "I want to be the King god dammit!".

Hey, my opinion might be onesider. Which is because I value things different than some. I value a united world over a country. I value 10 safe people over 1 dead. I value honor and pride over greed.
With every cards up, we see that Ulfric got no honor and doesn't give a damn about Tamriel. He wants Skyrim to be barbaric again, and he wants to kill the THalmor our of personal reasons. I see no good reason to join such a man, since history have shown me what happens when you do. The Stormcloak might be admireable and I give them kudos for trying. However, they got the wrong leader who feeds them the wrong idea.

I do not see this in black and white. I merely see it very one-sided. Ulfrics kill on the High King is the worse blow, followed by his massacre when people did not want to fight for him. I see no country where you die if you do not take up your sword, and you die if you are not a Nord following his ways --> as the Forsworn.

Frankly, the Stormcloak got no idea what they would do if the Thalmor invaded. I mean, we talk about a pretty strong force here. Cyrodiil had troubles beating them, and then they were heavily armed and trained. The Stormcloak are normal people wearing fur, wielding heavy weapons. None of thoose 3 fits good when an invasion takes place.

I believe I got my point over, again. Without being too confusing, or sounding like I am a fanatic. At least I hope not.

Cheers,
Matth

[rattail]

I think Skyrim and the civil war was designed to give the impression that the empire is doomed no matter what happens.

I'm not sure where people get this impression. Rome got pretty beaten at several points in its history, most notably during the civil was just after Julius's death, and came back stronger than ever. The Empire may be down, but i'd hardly say its beaten.

I agree, it will another 1000 years of greatness for everyone who reside inside the civilized Empire and obey the rules. Long live the Emperor ! Long live the Empire!

[madcowdiseiz]

I think Skyrim and the civil war was designed to give the impression that the empire is doomed no matter what happens.

I'm not sure where people get this impression. Rome got pretty beaten at several points in its history, most notably during the civil was just after Julius's death, and came back stronger than ever. The Empire may be down, but i'd hardly say its beaten.

I agree, it will another 1000 years of greatness for everyone who reside inside the civilized Empire and obey the rules. Long live the Emperor ! Long live the Empire!

Too late. I'm the listener. I killed the emperor. The next one had better not get on the Dark Mother's list or I'll come for him/her too.

[mclericp]

Well, i actually took less than 2 seconds to figure which side to join on my imperial mage, since the nords are so full of themselves. Imperial FTW, stormcloaks to death!
I was disgusted at how the nords in windhelm are treating the dark elves and argonians. just wait, one day when the dark elves and argonians rise into power, u nords are going to suffer!
Thats my point of view from my Imperial Mage.

However when i create a 2nd char(immediately after my imperial mage incase i got bored with him), which is a nord....battlemage, i actually took some time considering joining the stormcloaks. becuz after all, Ulfric made sense. Skyrim 'belonged' to the Nords and now those Thalmors are invading the country, plus the imperial Empire surrended to the elves and banned Talos. I went Stormcloaks after all because Ulfric wants the Nords to win, and its simple. Nord + stormcloak = Skyrim unification.

Summary:
Although Ulfric is a *&$O&( idiot, and i didnt like his attitude for getting the throne and his racism etc etc, siding with the imperials means being an Elf servant/slave. And i really despise those thalmors. i wish bethsoft would release a DLC that contain a new questline to wreck those elves to oblivion

edit: I assassinated the Emperor tidus mede 2, and i stole his robes and wore it. Now everyone is bowing to me. KNEEL DOWN, YOU NORD SLAVES

Edited by mclericp, 21 December 2011 - 12:49 PM.

[Matth85]

siding with the imperials means being an Elf servant/slave

Eh... the Imperials want to unite people under the Empire. They do not wish to enslave anybody -- the Thalmor does.

becuz after all, Ulfric made sense. Skyrim 'belonged' to the Nords and now those Thalmors are invading the country

Yet they are destroying their only chance at getting rid of the Thalmor. And the country doesn't "belong" to anybody. It used to belong to the Snow Elves, and the Forsworn. Look now: The Dwemer got rid of one and the Nords the other.

You see, the Imperials does not enslave anybody. Neither does the Stormcloack. The Imperials want a united world under the Empire, where the seat of power is in cyrodiil. The Stormcloak wants to get rid of anything but Nords, and get back to old traditions with Nord fighting Nord for more land.
Neither is "good" or "evil", just one got a plan with a good motive, and the other is simly .... well, selfish.

plus the imperial Empire surrended to the elves and banned Talos.

If they didn't ban the worship of Talos, half of Skyrim would be dead by now. This was a VERY good decision from the Empire. What do you want: A half dead country with a 9th divine, or 8 and a chance to fight back?
The Empire took away something minor for something major: Haltering an invasion so they could prepare. Too bad Ulfric don't see that and ruins that plan quite hard.

Also, to note, the Thalmor hasn't "invaded" the country. They are there to scout it out and make sure the plan work. If you knew lore, you would know that when the Thalmor invades, countries are lost. Heck, they almost managed to take down both cyrodiil and Hammerfell, but got beaten in the end.
A Thalmor invasion would mean the death of Skyrim, unless the Empire could halter them beforehand. Though the THalmor are smart, and they are Mers. They wait it out untill the Civil war have taken enough lives to make Skyrim defenseless. Too bad Dovahkin chooses a side and ruins that plan.

[LobselVith66]

Black and white? Please, do not put words into my mouth. It's been stated a million times it is a big grayzone with 3 baddies involved, where 1 is better than the next.

It's a matter of perspective.

The intor is the excecution of Ulfric. You happen to be caught WITH Ulfric. Could you be seen as less suspicous?

Besides the fact that the protagonist isn't wearing Stormcloak armor and might not be even be a Nord, which makes him (or her) stand out from every single other Stormcloak who was captured? It's made clear in the opening that the Empire knows the protagonist isn't with Ulfric, and they still plan on killing him (or her).

Imagen you were the General. You got Ulfric! The reason the CIVIL war started. You got a bunch of his men, and 2 which do not got the Stormcloak suit. Would you honestly care? Heck, I would have slaughtered Ulfric and everybody in a mile in a second. Instead they got a prayer and what-not. Tullius did what any decent military ranked man would do, and any man not overly sensitive over killing people. Your name was not on the list? Oh, that surely means you are innocent, right? Wether Hadvar thinks otherwise, is not helping. Hadvar does not got the responsiblity that Tullius got, and does not feel the effect as much as the general.

No one disputes what Hadvar clearly points out as the obvious: the protagonist isn't a member of the Stormcloaks. The point is: the people in charge don't care.

If you knew you were a few seconds from ending a civil war, giving you a chance to build up and repel the Thalmor, would you really care about the non-named guy caught at the same area as Ulfric? I know I wouldn't. I know of no military leader who would.

You mean letting an innocent person go because he or she clearly isn't a member of the rebel cause, or executing them?

That is true. Ulffric acts like a small German man we know, and Tullius acts ... well, like a military leader who got too much power.
However, with all cards on the table: Who would you prefer?

Your claim that you weren't trying to make this black and white would work better if you weren't trying to cast the Stormcloaks as WII Germany.

Ulfric and the Stormcloak? Good short term goal, no long term goal, terrible motive, wants to bring the old barabric ways back to Skyrim, kick out anything but Nords and kill anybody not helping them in the war -- as done before.

If that was the case, Ulfric would have kicked out the Dunmer from Windhelm. He doesn't. Ulfric is even willing to name a Dunmer as his Thane and give him permission to purchase a mansion. Also, Ulfric spares the Jarls who opposed him, he doesn't simply kill everyone who gets in his way. As for the Empire: torture chambers and letting the Thalmor have free reign in Skyrim doesn't sound much better. Some of the Legion even contemplate trying to re-take Morrowind.

Tullius and the Imperials? Good long time goal, motive connected to the goal, actually got a plan, wants to strengten the Empire -- which, remember, Skyrim was a part of before and had less problems than now.

What "good long term goal"? Hammerfell was able to take on the Dominion without any aid from the Empire, and keep their autonomy. I don't see why Skryim couldn't do the same.

They both want to take down the Thalmor, more or less.
Tullius wants them gone so Tamriel is in no more danger from them.
Ulfric wants to kill them since he hates Mers and they tortured him.

Tullis and Ulfric hate the Thalmor, but the Empire is going to appease them while Ulfric is going to kick them out of Skyrim.

The Empire/Imperials got a plan, after the civil war.
Ulfric doesn't see past "I want to be the King god dammit!".

Restore Talos worship, maintain their autonomy, and kick out the Thalmor. Sounds like they have a plan to me. I'd say there are different benefits when it comes to siding with either the Legion or the Stormcloaks, but I think Ulfric is a more capable leader than Elsif, who will evidently be little more than a puppet leader for the Empire if she took the throne and became High Queen.

Hey, my opinion might be onesider. Which is because I value things different than some. I value a united world over a country. I value 10 safe people over 1 dead. I value honor and pride over greed.
With every cards up, we see that Ulfric got no honor and doesn't give a damn about Tamriel. He wants Skyrim to be barbaric again, and he wants to kill the THalmor our of personal reasons. I see no good reason to join such a man, since history have shown me what happens when you do. The Stormcloak might be admireable and I give them kudos for trying. However, they got the wrong leader who feeds them the wrong idea.

I've sided with the Stormcloaks and the Empire on different playthroughs, and both had their charm and faults. However, I don't see Ulfric honoring the traditions of his people as "barbaric." And the Thalmor are the fulcrum of evil - they want to wipe out existance. I see one of the main reasons a protagonist would side with the Stormcloaks is the fact that Ulfric is willing to put down and take out the Thalmor - no torture chambers, no letting innocent people get taken away for worshipping Talos.

I do not see this in black and white. I merely see it very one-sided. Ulfrics kill on the High King is the worse blow, followed by his massacre when people did not want to fight for him. I see no country where you die if you do not take up your sword, and you die if you are not a Nord following his ways --> as the Forsworn.

Ulfric challenged the High King to a duel following Nord tradition, which was accepted by Torygg, and High King Torygg lost. And the books written about Ulfric taking Markarth were written by an Imperial of the Legion - it might be biased. If you speak with the Jarl of Markarth, you'll hear the Jarl admit that Ulfric was invited by the Legion to re-take Markarth (in direct contradiction to the books) and even offered religious freedom in exchange for his service, but that when the Dominion found out, they scape-goated Ulfric. The pro-Legion Jarl attests to this series of events.

Frankly, the Stormcloak got no idea what they would do if the Thalmor invaded. I mean, we talk about a pretty strong force here. Cyrodiil had troubles beating them, and then they were heavily armed and trained. The Stormcloak are normal people wearing fur, wielding heavy weapons. None of thoose 3 fits good when an invasion takes place.

You mean people without magic fighting people with magic, like in Hammerfell, the nation that fought and maintained their sovereignty from the Dominion even after the Empire sold them out? The Thalmor didn't win, forcing the Aldmeri forces to withdraw completely from Hammerfell.

[Matth85]

Besides the fact that the protagonist isn't wearing Stormcloak armor and might not be even be a Nord, which makes him (or her) stand out from every single other Stormcloak who was captured? It's made clear in the opening that the Empire knows the protagonist isn't with Ulfric, and they still plan on killing him (or her).

It is made clear that ONE person don't believe so. That is irrelevant: If I sit in a buss with a terrorist, I don't think they would look at my clothes.

The point is: the people in charge don't care.

Welcome to the world?
Nobody cares, that is a fact. They had Ulfric, they had the guy who started the war. If people feel sore about that, I suggest you head to the army for a year. You mean nothing unless you've earnt it.

You mean letting an innocent person go because he or she clearly isn't a member of the rebel cause, or executing them?

Or perhaps letting go a general of the Stormcloak, which didn't wear the Stormcloak clothes in said moment? One life means very little in a war. There is nothing "clearly" about it, Hadvar said what he said out of a gut feeling. No facts were there, and it would take long to prove anything. They didn't want to carry you all around for no reason, when you are in a VERY bad position.

Your claim that you weren't trying to make this black and white would work better if you weren't trying to cast the Stormcloaks as WII Germany.

I claim I don't see it in black and white, I also claim I prefer the Empire over the Stormcloak. I have also had opinions on both side: I see the war as a grayzone, I see tullius vs Ulfric as black and white. I would shoot Ulfric on sight if I was Tullius.

If that was the case, Ulfric would have kicked out the Dunmer from Windhelm. He doesn't. Ulfric is even willing to name a Dunmer as his Thane and give him permission to purchase a mansion. Also, Ulfric spares the Jarls who opposed him, he doesn't simply kill everyone who gets in his way. As for the Empire: torture chambers and letting the Thalmor have free reign in Skyrim doesn't sound much better. Some of the Legion even contemplate trying to re-take Morrowind.

Have you seen how the Dunmer live in Windhelm? They might aswell be thrown out. They are under no protection what so ever.
Ullfric challenges Jarls, and slaughter people. A certain book, which I forgot the name of, states that he slaughtered anybody that did not help him fight the Fornsworn. So any man that could carry a sword, but denied to fight, would die. That is slaughter and murder, and shows how he acts: Power hungry and selfish.

What "good long term goal"? Hammerfell was able to take on the Dominion without any aid from the Empire, and keep their autonomy. I don't see why Skryim couldn't do the same.

Last time Hammerfell won against the Thalmor, they had some disguised Imperials with them. They are also known to be pretty good fighter, and havn't had both a civil war and dragons on their head for the last years. Skyrim is weak as of now, and the Thalmor is ready to invade any second.
The Empire would be ready to attack the Thalmor. Guess which idiot stopped them? His name starts with U and he started a rebellion.

Tullis and Ulfric hate the Thalmor, but the Empire is going to appease them while Ulfric is going to kick them out of Skyrim.

The Empire appease them because they need to. They are weak, and need to rebuild.
You mean kick out the small teams in Skyrim? Sure, go do that. Wait for the army a month later, and see what happens. It would take Skyrim a few years to get the army needed to hold itself against the Thalmor, and pushing out the Thalmor from Skyrim would not help anybody.
At least the Empire knows strategy: fighting when you are strong, not when you are weak.

Restore Talos worship, maintain their autonomy, and kick out the Thalmor. Sounds like they have a plan to me. I'd say there are different benefits when it comes to siding with either the Legion or the Stormcloaks, but I think Ulfric is a more capable leader than Elsif, who will evidently be little more than a puppet leader for the Empire if she took the throne and became High Queen.

As said earlier: Do that, and you got an invasion. Cyordiil almost fell to the invasion. Hammerfell did as well. Skyrim had had civil war for a while, is in chaos, had dragons -- they would be no match. Good plan, huh? Kick out 20 Thalmor, get 5000 back. There is a reason they banned Talos worshipping: It prolonged the time for an invasion. Just "enough" time for the empire to rebuild, if it wasn't for Ulfrics rebellion.

You mean people without magic fighting people with magic, like in Hammerfell, the nation that fought and maintained their sovereignty from the Dominion even after the Empire sold them out? The Thalmor didn't win, forcing the Aldmeri forces to withdraw completely from Hammerfell.

Seen the college? There are what, 5 people?
Nords hate magic. There are max 40 mages in all of Skyrim, when every Thalmor is a mage/battlemage. Who do you think win:
1) The team with a strategy, wear light armor - but sturdy, can use healing magic and is very skilled with a sword
or
2) A team with no strategy, wear fur and usually wears a 2 handed weapon.

Ulfric challenged the High King to a duel following Nord tradition, which was accepted by Torygg, and High King Torygg lost

Do you know what a duel is? It means a fight between 2 people testing skills.
Ulfric knew Torygg couldn't say no, and he also knew he was stronger. Now that is the first thing that was wrong.
Secondly he used a shout. Which is against the term "duel".
Thirdly he killed him before he could get up.

Basically: I set you to a nuke, and shoot you with a rocket launcher, and a bath of acid falls on you, and you only got a dagger to fight me. That is how honorable and fair that fight was. Not a duel: Murder. If Torygg knew a shout, then it would be a duel -- but he did not.

[darthsloth74]

I made the mistake of joining Ulfric with one of my characters. I hated every minute of it and I was playing a Nord. I only joined because I agreed with the concept of freedom of worship for Talos.

However I didn't hate Ulfric simply because he condoned racism. The Thalmor are just as guilty of that given their master race mentality. No I hated Ulfric because he had no charisma. I questioned how such a dull and intolerant man could ever be the hero/symbol of a revolution of the people, although it does happen in real world history. The man is completely dense. In fact half the time Ulfric sounds totally bored and given the resolution of the Civil War quest was not apparently that interested in becoming High King immediately anyway.

At the political conference hosted by the Greybeards, he demonstrates his intolerance, his lack of manners and his poor diplomacy skills. At one point I expected the man to leap over the table and take General Tullius's head off with an axe if he didn't get his way. A petualant child, a would be rabble rouser. Ulfric is nothing more than an agent of anarchy and his lack of a long term defined plan is pretty obvious at the end of the quest.

I took great delight in siding with the Imperial Legion with another character and gutting this dullard.