230 replies to this topic

[LobselVith66]

It is made clear that ONE person don't believe so. That is irrelevant: If I sit in a buss with a terrorist, I don't think they would look at my clothes.

The Imperial Captain never disputes the claim, and makes it clear she doesn't care, either. General Tullis doesn't even suggest the possibility if the protagonist tries to get assigned into the Legion. If Tullis seriously considered the protagonist a member of the Stormcloaks, wouldn't he wonder if the protagonist was a Stormcloak spy?

Welcome to the world?
Nobody cares, that is a fact. They had Ulfric, they had the guy who started the war. If people feel sore about that, I suggest you head to the army for a year. You mean nothing unless you've earnt it.

I didn't realize innocent people had to earn the right not to be executed.

Or perhaps letting go a general of the Stormcloak, which didn't wear the Stormcloak clothes in said moment? One life means very little in a war. There is nothing "clearly" about it, Hadvar said what he said out of a gut feeling. No facts were there, and it would take long to prove anything. They didn't want to carry you all around for no reason, when you are in a VERY bad position.

Hadvar was stating the obvious. The protagonist is clearly a refugee, which is made apparent even if the protagonist is a Nord, and the point is even more absurd when you factor in that the protagonist can be a non-Nord. The Legion apparently didn't care about executing two people who had nothing to do with the Stormcloaks.

I claim I don't see it in black and white, I also claim I prefer the Empire over the Stormcloak. I have also had opinions on both side: I see the war as a grayzone, I see tullius vs Ulfric as black and white. I would shoot Ulfric on sight if I was Tullius.

Tullis and Ulfric aren't black and white, that's the problem.

Have you seen how the Dunmer live in Windhelm? They might aswell be thrown out. They are under no protection what so ever.
Ullfric challenges Jarls, and slaughter people. A certain book, which I forgot the name of, states that he slaughtered anybody that did not help him fight the Fornsworn. So any man that could carry a sword, but denied to fight, would die. That is slaughter and murder, and shows how he acts: Power hungry and selfish.

The Bear of Markarth is factually inaccurate, as I already addressed, because the pro-Legion Jarl of Markarth - Jarl Igmund - admits that the Legion asked Ulfric to re-take Markarth in exchange for religious freedom for the city, and sold him out when the Dominion found out about it.

Last time Hammerfell won against the Thalmor, they had some disguised Imperials with them. They are also known to be pretty good fighter, and havn't had both a civil war and dragons on their head for the last years. Skyrim is weak as of now, and the Thalmor is ready to invade any second.
The Empire would be ready to attack the Thalmor. Guess which idiot stopped them? His name starts with U and he started a rebellion.

The Empire hasn't done anything about the Thalmor since the White-Gold Concordt, while Hammerfell took them on and ended up keeping Hammerfell. There's no evidence that the Empire would have attacked the Dominion, and it seems more likely they would have continued to capitulate to the Thalmor as they are doing now. And one of the main reasons that Ulfric wants to cecede from the Empire is because they refuse to fight back against the Thalmor.

The Empire appease them because they need to. They are weak, and need to rebuild.
You mean kick out the small teams in Skyrim? Sure, go do that. Wait for the army a month later, and see what happens. It would take Skyrim a few years to get the army needed to hold itself against the Thalmor, and pushing out the Thalmor from Skyrim would not help anybody.
At least the Empire knows strategy: fighting when you are strong, not when you are weak.

The Empire is already weak, and may continue to be weak for years to come. If Hammerfell could maintain their independence from the Thalmor, then it's certainly possible that Skyrim could do the same.

As said earlier: Do that, and you got an invasion. Cyordiil almost fell to the invasion. Hammerfell did as well. Skyrim had had civil war for a while, is in chaos, had dragons -- they would be no match. Good plan, huh? Kick out 20 Thalmor, get 5000 back. There is a reason they banned Talos worshipping: It prolonged the time for an invasion. Just "enough" time for the empire to rebuild, if it wasn't for Ulfrics rebellion.

You mean the Empire was doing nothing but capitulating to the Thalmor, including when Ulfric reclaimed the Reach on behalf of the Empire, and people had enough.

Seen the college? There are what, 5 people?
Nords hate magic. There are max 40 mages in all of Skyrim, when every Thalmor is a mage/battlemage. Who do you think win:
1) The team with a strategy, wear light armor - but sturdy, can use healing magic and is very skilled with a sword
or
2) A team with no strategy, wear fur and usually wears a 2 handed weapon.

I think you are conflating the game mechanics of a few people at the College as canon story narrative. And like I said before: Hammerfell did it. Skyrim could possibly do the same.

Do you know what a duel is? It means a fight between 2 people testing skills.
Ulfric knew Torygg couldn't say no, and he also knew he was stronger. Now that is the first thing that was wrong.
Secondly he used a shout. Which is against the term "duel".
Thirdly he killed him before he could get up.

Yes, a duel is precisely what happened - Ulfric challenged the High King, and the High King lost. No one claims the Voice was used illegally, so I don't see why you are making such a claim. Nothing you stated has disputed that a duel took place. Torygg could have said no, but he didn't. Simply because he was the inferior fighter doesn't mean anything. Ulfric killed Torygg because that was the entire point of the duel, he didn't need to wait for him to get up when he was fighting to the death.

Basically: I set you to a nuke, and shoot you with a rocket launcher, and a bath of acid falls on you, and you only got a dagger to fight me. That is how honorable and fair that fight was. Not a duel: Murder. If Torygg knew a shout, then it would be a duel -- but he did not.

That analogy doesn't work, because it's never stated that it was illegal for Ulfric to use the Voice against Torygg. Guards say it in astonishment, and even the court mage Sybille Stentor says it in shock. No one seems to even suggest that it was illegal for Ulfric to use the Voice.

[Khorak]

First off, i chose New York exactly because it was a founding member. Bringing Cyrodiil to heel was more of a fight for Talos than Skyrim. The Greybears proclaimed him Ysmir, and the entire province practically signed on. It was never forcibly brought into line like, say, Hammerfel and Highrock. As such, i deliberately chose a state which had not only always been part of the USA, but was also a founding member.

So you deliberately chose a state that makes no sense and then rambled a load of nonsense when I pointed it out? Simple fact is that the Nords bent knee to Talos because he was a Nord, a Dragonborn, and kicked endless amounts of arse.....their arses, in fact. His descendants continued on in a fashion the Nords appreciated. This is not, however, in any way comparable with New York sitting down with the other Thirteen Colonies and writing up themselves a federal government.

Skyrim has long seen itself as still being largely autonomous, which is not surprising since it also sees itself as having joined Talos after he showed his awesome by beating them up, and on account of the Empire being a strong, arsekicking institution the Nords were damn happy to be kicking arses with. Considering they had effectively lost to Talos, their subjugation was going to be a given anyway; as it turns out everyone could be somewhat happy with the whole thing without Talos having to march into the province and kill a load more people...except the Bretons I guess. Now Skyrim is no longer satisfied with being a part of the Empire, half the damn place has risen up in direct rebellion (they signed up because of Talos...and now he's being outlawed, who could possibly have thought this would happen?) and what do you know, the Empire you're very poorly trying to pass off as a happy family in direct opposition to it's very name telling you how it went about the business of controlling Tamriel, isn't about to let them leave because, duh, it's considered an Imperial territory and they're going to kill the hell out of anyone attempting to leave the Empire. It's not a democratic institution, it's an Empire, it conquers.

Second, Tullius is convinced by Rikke to invest lives and resources in a tradition he doesn;t beleive in. That takes a degree of humility. It takes even more to admit, once you complete the mission, that there is some worth to these Nordic traditions. He clearly doesn't like them, but he's still willing to abide by them. Can the same be said for Ulfric?

He was convinced by Rikke explaining that the enemy do NOT see it as a meaningless tradition and allowing them to claim the Jagged Crown would mean greater support for Ulfric. He invests lives in not letting the enemy gather more support for themselves. Your argument here is a transparent re-interpretation of what is said practically straight to your face, to support this image you're trying to construct in support of him. Simple fact is he has no respect for Nord tradition beyond being irritated by it, and gives a proverbial shrug with a "Hm, guess it turned out well" when you and Rikke get the job done.

And when does he mention their worth? Now we have the 'damn crown'? 'Perhaps I didn't respond to the Legates suggestion as quick as I should have?'. The man speaks as one who has been proven completely wrong in his misgivings, considering he wanted to do absolutely nothing at all on account of the crown being a stupid tradition, he's hardly displaying great humility about it! You and Rikke made him look like a tit!

It is incredible the kinds of vast conclusions you draw from practically nothing Tullius gives you while bagging relentlessly on anything and everything the Stormcloaks say or do. Both sides are equally crap.

Third, how many people have you met who can be completely awair of everything going on around them at all times? I've known incedents where someone shot an automatic weapon off on the busiest street in the city, during peak shopping hours, and no one saw a thing. Take a hectic, stressful situation, throw in known enemies on both sides of you (Stormcloaks in front, Thalmor in back *And Tullius views the Thalmor very much as enemies*) and claiming that Tullius should know every minute detail of whats going on is absurd. As for Lokir making a run for it, criminals proclaim their innosence all the time. Thats not exactly a convincing piece of evidence.

Concession accepted. Tullius does absolutely nothing. Your only response has been to babble on about situational awareness, that apparently a seasoned general in complete control of a situation should be dropping details like a paraplegic catcher covered in grease. Your argument trying to support the actions of Tullius, Hadvar (you didn't even bother trying to respond to his failures) and the legionnaires in general during the intro of the game are garbage, and there's a simple reason why; because they are indefensible. They catch people who clearly aren't Stormcloaks in their ambush, hurl them on carts to be taken halfway across Skyrim, and when any question is raised....screw it, hack their heads off anyway. The General hasn't bothered to aquaint himself with the situation at all, has absolutely no questions at all about the guy running off screaming that he isn't one of them, or even, amusingly, questions about why one of them is potentially a bloody High Elf while Thalmor representatives are right there in Helgen wanting to talk about the situation. The commander of the garrison then wilfully intends to murder the unknown subject without any idea what their crime is (none). Hadvar displays the backbone of a sea cucumber and just signs you off for dying instead of raising the situation with the General standing right there or even making a squeak about it.

The ultimate outcome shows that absolutely no-one present gives a God damn about murdering innocent people who were in the vicinity of Stormcloaks. And as an additional note, about those torture rooms? "I wish we didn't need these". Thanks Hadvar. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about the Empire. It's good to know that you think the Empire explicitly needs torture rooms but you feel a bit bad about it. I can rest assured.

Fourth, Tullius WANTS to take the fight to the Thalmor. He views the entire Skyrim civil was as a disctraction. There are several hints in his speech and that of Legate Rikke that, prior to Ulfric kicking up a stink, the Empire was preparing for another war. However, Tullius sets asside his own wants to do his duty, whereas Ulfric is only interested in his own wants.

Tullius isn't the Emperor, and regardless I know full well the Empire wants to fight the Thalmor. Skyrim is preparing for war with the Thalmor after the civil war as well, Ulfric tells you this when you talk to him back in Windhelm. Of course, people like to squeal that the Empire is the only thing that could stand up to the Thalmor....again, no evidence in the slightest of this. Literally none. The Summerset Isle is a province no bigger than Skyrim itself, and they got their entire main force completely scrubbed at the end of the Great War. For some reason the idea is that Summerset Isle can easily replace all losses and trundle on completely unstoppable, which is nonsense. They already proved that themselves when they didn't immediately crush the entirely of Hammerfell after the Great War. They couldn't, they had nothing left beyond holding down their dominions.

So ultimately, the argument that 'The Empire has a plan and Skyrim doesn't' is a lie. It's made up. We know Ulfric has a plan, he's already putting it in motion when he wins. He's setting up for war, same as the Empire.

Bethesda are pretty obvious in their intent, picking Skyrim or the Empire still means fighting the Thalmor. Both choices are valid in terms of opposing the Thalmor so that players don't have to feel railroaded in that regard, and so it can be clear that facing the Thalmor is a future event regardless.

And what the hell is wrong with an empire? Has the world become so jaded by Star Wars that the word Empire is preminantly tainted? The Empire has brought centuries of peace to Tamriel, and prosperity none of the Provinces have known in at least 2 ages, some not at all. Yes, it has its own interests, but there is nothing to indicate that Cyrodiil intersts are Empire interests. In fact, the first people to break off from the Empire after the Oblivion Crisis were Cyrodiil cities, who then had to be brought back into line.

The Empire is not, and has never been a Cyrodiil centric entity. Its capital is there because it is where Talos's career started, and its the most central province. The actual functioning of the Empire has been shown to be more akin to that of a modern federal government than a classical Empire.

There is everything wrong with being an Empire when you're attempting to argue a position of moral supremacy. Apparently you're nowhere near as smart as you think you are, so I'll make it clear for you:

em·pire

noun

1. a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

2. a government under an emperor or empress.

3. ( often initial capital letter ) the historical period during which a nation is under such a government: a history of the second French empire.

4. supreme power in governing; imperial power; sovereignty: Austria's failure of empire in central Europe.

5. supreme control; absolute sway: passion's empire over the mind.

The Empire is a Cyrodiil centred entity by its very definition you buffoon. IT IS AN EMPIRE and the seat of power is AN EMPEROR IN CYRODIIL. Even Balgruuf makes this clear; the Jarls were not consulted on the conditions of the Concordat, they were told, why? BECAUSE IT IS AN EMPIRE. At what point have the Emperors and all the workings of power lived anywhere but the Imperial City in this supposedly not Cyrodiil centred Empire? Haha! Imperial City, you know, because rubbing imperialism in your face doesn't seem to be good enough, we need to find new depths of subtlety! And how did it become an Empire? I'll take "conquering everything in sight" for ten points! Woooo!

We have an Emperor, of an Empire that conquered Tamriel out of Cyrodill, living in the Imperial City which is in Cyrodiil, which runs the entire bureaucracy and all institutions from the seat of power in Cyrodiil, and you say it's not a Cyrodiil centric entity. That, is idiotic. Almost as idiotic, almost, as saying that Star Wars has tainted the idea of an Empire. ****ing Star Wars. If you're wondering why I'm now outright insulting you, this is why, it's because this is offensively stupid. That you could say such a thing despite the world having already played host to the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Japanese Empire, the German Empire, the French Empire, holy hell don't even get started on the Belgian Empire in the Congo, the British Empire (still holding the record for most mass death without ever committing a genocide!), and a host of other Empires proving that, what do you know, an Empire isn't good. Oh certainly very grand and often they corner the market in awesome aesthetics, and peace is always nice even when it's of the "massive Imperial power will kill you dead if you act up ever so slightly...or when we feel like it, meh", but to claim they're in any way good? Yeah. Idiotic. An Empire is a top heavy dictatorship that relys on overwhelming Imperial authority stemming from strength of arms, and you can only be an Empire if you've already used that strength to make multiple sovereign territories your bitches.

The idea the Empire are intrinsically better than the Stormcloaks is a joke. They really do, as Ralof says, show you their true face during the intro. Despite that, one can argue that they still prefer the idea of the Empire as a unifying force, despite having fallen so far; perhaps they can help it rise again and cast off those things. Which is fine. It also becomes clear later that the Stormcloaks are nationalists, who are so angry at what they see as the failure and betrayal of the Empire after the White-Gold Concordat that they're at the point of wanting to kick everyone out of Skyrim. Despite that, one can argue that the Empire is basically already dead, a Thalmor dominion in all but name that has denied the very founder, the very spirit of its creation, and in doing so even betrayed the Redguards who continued to fight on, and win, no matter what the Emperor on his throne in Cyrodiil wanted. Which is fine. But one better than the other? As if. When you're at the point of claiming that the very institution of Empire is ok, you're at the barrel scraping point of apologetic lunacy.

[Matth85]

If Tullis seriously considered the protagonist a member of the Stormcloaks, wouldn't he wonder if the protagonist was a Stormcloak spy?

As you yourself stated: Nobody cares. You were there, you are 1 person. You are not worth the time you take.

I didn't realize innocent people had to earn the right not to be executed.

The point being: Rights means nothing in war, at least not in a barbaric war as in Skyrim. Being in the position you are, you are worth nothing -- at least not the time it takes to find out who you are and hope you don't stab somebody first. Better safe than sorry.

Hadvar was stating the obvious.

Obvious? How on earth is it obvious? You are with ULFRIC. The LEADER. You are as suspicious as possible. Your dressing means little, and you not being on a list could be because of a screw up. It is only obvious for us.

The Legion apparently didn't care about executing two people who had nothing to do with the Stormcloaks.

Why risk it? They had no proof of anything. Both looked rather suspicious, which means it would take some time to figure this out. It's not like Ulfric sent a lit to Tullius about all his people. What if Ulfric decided to use a High elf in his rank, to stab tullius once he was set free? A nice plan. I see no problems in killing 2 people and killing 1 very important one. Of course, the dragon messed it up.

Tullis and Ulfric aren't black and white, that's the problem.

Depending what you mean by "problem". You can hate Ulfric and still like the Stormcloak. Though you would never join that faction. I see the goal of the Stormcloak and find it honorable. I find Ulfric to be selfish and power hungry, so I am against the rebellion of his.

There's no evidence that the Empire would have attacked the Dominion, and it seems more likely they would have continued to capitulate to the Thalmor as they are doing now. And one of the main reasons that Ulfric wants to cecede from the Empire is because they refuse to fight back against the Thalmor.

If you took some time to pay attention, you'd now that the Empire is currently building up to attack. There is a reason the imperials do not want the civil war. There is a reason they did not start it, but Ulfric. Why attack when you are weak? It makes no sense!

You mean the Empire was doing nothing but capitulating to the Thalmor, including when Ulfric reclaimed the Reach on behalf of the Empire, and people had enough.

The empire knows they would loose if the Thalmor invaded. Ulfric doesn't care, he just want to kill stuff. Skyrim would not be able to hold themself without more defenses up, which they do not got.

I think you are conflating the game mechanics of a few people at the College as canon story narrative

You know what happened to the college? You realize that Nords never liked magic? This is not game-mechanics, but lore. The Nords was never mages, and never would be. They are fighters, big, bulky, warriors.

That analogy doesn't work, because it's never stated that it was illegal for Ulfric to use the Voice against Torygg

Illegal? Never said it was. I said it was DISHONORABLE. It was murder, legal or not. Look up the term "duel", please.
A duel is equal gear, and skill decides. This was not equal in any way, so it was not a duel: It was murder.

[LobselVith66]

As you yourself stated: Nobody cares. You were there, you are 1 person. You are not worth the time you take.

I'm pretty sure the protagonist might care.

The point being: Rights means nothing in war, at least not in a barbaric war as in Skyrim. Being in the position you are, you are worth nothing -- at least not the time it takes to find out who you are and hope you don't stab somebody first. Better safe than sorry.

And yet you take Ulfric to task when he is fighting a war to emancipate Skyrim from the Empire, which is under the heel of the Thalmor and giving them free reign with its citizens?

Obvious? How on earth is it obvious? You are with ULFRIC. The LEADER. You are as suspicious as possible. Your dressing means little, and you not being on a list could be because of a screw up. It is only obvious for us.

It's obvious for Hadvar, the Captain never disputes his claim, and Tullis doesn't even consider the possibility of the protagonist working for the Stormcloaks if he tries to work for the Legion.

Why risk it? They had no proof of anything. Both looked rather suspicious, which means it would take some time to figure this out. It's not like Ulfric sent a lit to Tullius about all his people. What if Ulfric decided to use a High elf in his rank, to stab tullius once he was set free? A nice plan. I see no problems in killing 2 people and killing 1 very important one. Of course, the dragon messed it up.

So you have no problem with the Empire killing an innocent person, but you have a problem with Ulfric killing the High King in a duel?

If you took some time to pay attention, you'd now that the Empire is currently building up to attack. There is a reason the imperials do not want the civil war. There is a reason they did not start it, but Ulfric. Why attack when you are weak? It makes no sense!

Your assumptions about what the Empire might be doing aren't facts.

The empire knows they would loose if the Thalmor invaded. Ulfric doesn't care, he just want to kill stuff. Skyrim would not be able to hold themself without more defenses up, which they do not got.

You don't know that Skyrim would lose, you assume that they would.

You know what happened to the college? You realize that Nords never liked magic? This is not game-mechanics, but lore. The Nords was never mages, and never would be. They are fighters, big, bulky, warriors.

Addressing that there are not many mages in the College anymore is lore, but the precise number of actual mages isn't known due to game mechanics any more than we get an accurate representation of how many people actually live in a particular town or city.

Illegal? Never said it was. I said it was DISHONORABLE. It was murder, legal or not. Look up the term "duel", please.
A duel is equal gear, and skill decides. This was not equal in any way, so it was not a duel: It was murder.

This is taking place on Skyrim, on Nirn, not on Earth. It's not cold-blooded murder because it was a duel. This was a duel that was accepted by the High King when Ulfric presented it, which the High King lost.

[Matth85]

I'm pretty sure the protagonist might care.

I am also sure anybody who recently got killed by a bomb would care. It doesn't work like that: the protagonist is in a bad position, and that is bad. However, his opinion means very little. Guilty untill proven otherwise, where they don't feel to prove it. Sad? perhaps, but it is how it 'should' be done.

It's obvious for Hadvar

We are going in circles here... It is obvious to ONE guy. He got NO proof. He used gut feeling. It is not obvious at all.

So you have no problem with the Empire killing an innocent person, but you have a problem with Ulfric killing the High King in a duel?

I got nothing against Tullius for it. Sometimes extreme measures is necessary. I got something against the 'duel' as you put it, since it breaks everything called honor and pride.

Your assumptions about what the Empire might be doing aren't facts.

And yours about Ulfric are?

You don't know that Skyrim would lose, you assume that they would.

And you assume they would win, and that primitive armor and weapons beats elven gear. I see the better party of the two, who wins is not up to us: But the odds are on the table.

Addressing that there are not many mages in the College anymore is lore, but the precise number of actual mages isn't known due to game mechanics any more than we get an accurate representation of how many people actually live in a particular town or city.

We still got an estimate compared to that each Thalmor knows magic.

This is taking place on Skyrim, on Nirn, not on Earth. It's not cold-blooded murder because it was a duel. This was a duel that was accepted by the High King when Ulfric presented it, which the High King lost.

It was a cold-blooded murder because it was not a duel, and because Torygg had NO choice -- he had to accept. Really fair? You got a minigun, he got a dagger. You got 20 years experience fighting, he got 5. You challenge, he can't accept. Who would win?
Torygg was slaughtered: A sword through his chest after being thrown down. It was unfair in every way possible. Nords are known for pride: Is that honorable?

If you want to say I assume a lot, you might want to include yourself. Everybody assume: We are discussing lore and theory within a game. We got no saying what happens.

[Lachdonin]

Ok, Khorak, you resort to dictionary definitions, something which are not permited to be used as scholarly resources, make it up to be the be-all and end-all, then have the audacity to call me a bafoon? I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you clearly miss the point of everything i'm saying, and are so stuck in your own little 'Empires are bad, Ulfric is better than jesus" world.

[Aethgar]

See, I can't agree with the OP. Ulfric's speeches and actions seem less a crazed megalomaniac and more a resigned man who genuinely believes he's doing the right thing, but has had to be egged on extensively to act.
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath...
I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must."
He's not saying that publically for others to hear. He's arguing with a men he trusts with his life, in his own palace, in his war room.
He argues also against just killing Balgruuf the Greater, and constantly seems reluctant to act. After everything, he's again not exactly bouncing up and down to go talk to his men and rally them. He seems depressed but again, resigned, and seems to surprise even his general when he calls for a Moot in the traditional acclamation of the High King.

All in all, while I agreed with Tullius's dying speech about Ulfric having served the Aldmeri in offering up human lives to be destroyed.. I also had to agree that Ulfric wasn't WRONG to do so. He wasn't right, either, but then again... neither side is.

This game is for me a pinnacle of well told gray vs. gray morality. Neither side is the good guys.. or the bad guys. Both are undeniably flawed, and both are trying to do the right thing which they believe is right.

And I can't decide if it's good or bad. If Ulfric wins and consolidates the Nords, who's to say that he couldn't do a Talos himself and conquer Tamriel as that Nord general long ago did? If the Empire wins, could it consolidate enough to throw off the Thalmor? I don't think so myself if only because having the bastards everywhere means no plans can be hatched without their spies finding out, so their overthrow is next to impossible for the Empire as it stands. And a few more generations to remove the deified Nord Talos/Tiber Septim, and people might start believing the Altmer crap about men not being as good as the ancestor spirits who are Aedra to the Mer.

I just don't know, but having done one side to date, I found it bittersweet but also understandable. And I have no doubt that when I muster the iron stomach to join the Imperials on another play through, a similar exchange will be heard at Ulfric's death about who the good and bad guys really may be.. and I'll be as bittersweet as I am now about it all.

Edit: Also to those saying Ulfric's use of the Shout was wrong, he used Disarm. It's the only Thu'um he ever seems to use, which backs up his side of the story. And why didn't Toryyg possess a Thu'um? Why couldn't he climb the nine thousand steps? Balgruuf did.
Wasn't he enough of a Nord, or was he merely a puppet? I think that was the point of Ulfric's display there. He killed him with steel, but he used the ancient Nord Thu'um without a Shouted reply. It shows Ulfric's dedication and training to have mastered the single Shout he has.

Edited by Aethgar, 21 December 2011 - 11:13 PM.

[LobselVith66]

I am also sure anybody who recently got killed by a bomb would care. It doesn't work like that: the protagonist is in a bad position, and that is bad. However, his opinion means very little. Guilty untill proven otherwise, where they don't feel to prove it. Sad? perhaps, but it is how it 'should' be done.

I find it interesting that you continue to defend the Legion trying to murder an innocent person who was clearly not a member of the Stormcloaks, but villify Ulfric for challenging the High King to a legal duel for the throne because the High King lost the fight.

We are going in circles here... It is obvious to ONE guy. He got NO proof. He used gut feeling. It is not obvious at all.

If Tullis thought the protagonist was a Stormcloak, he wouldn't have allowed him to become a member of the Legion, or would have at least voiced concern over possible Stormcloak sympathies.

I got nothing against Tullius for it. Sometimes extreme measures is necessary. I got something against the 'duel' as you put it, since it breaks everything called honor and pride.

The duel was in accordance with Nord tradition, and even the High King accepted it when Ulfric challenged him.

]
And yours about Ulfric are?

Addressing what the Jarl of Markarth said about the Empire making an offer to Ulfric for religious freedom in Markarth, and then selling him down the river when the Thalmor found out about it, and how Tullis reacts to the Dragonborn when he asks to become a member of the Legion, aren't assumptions. I'm addressing what explicitly transpired.

And you assume they would win, and that primitive armor and weapons beats elven gear. I see the better party of the two, who wins is not up to us: But the odds are on the table.

I address that it's a possibility that they can win because Hammerfell succeeded in maintaining their independence from the Thalmor, which you outright dismiss despite the historical precendence to the contrary.

We still got an estimate compared to that each Thalmor knows magic.

If victory was so certain, I doubt the Thalmor wouldn't want a Stormcloak victory in the civil war. They aren't invincible - Hammerfell demonstrated this.

It was a cold-blooded murder because it was not a duel, and because Torygg had NO choice -- he had to accept. Really fair? You got a minigun, he got a dagger. You got 20 years experience fighting, he got 5. You challenge, he can't accept. Who would win?
Torygg was slaughtered: A sword through his chest after being thrown down. It was unfair in every way possible. Nords are known for pride: Is that honorable?

Torygg could have declined, he had free will. It's not cold-blooded murder because it was a duel that both men consented to. Ulfric killed Torygg in accordance with the duel - a fight to the death that Torygg had accepted, despite knowing that Ulfric knew how to use the Voice (as he used it to regain control of the Reach).

[Matth85]

I find it interesting that you continue to defend the Legion trying to murder an innocent person who was clearly not a member of the Stormcloaks, but villify Ulfric for challenging the High King to a legal duel for the throne because the High King lost the fight.

Can you really not see the different in:
1) VEry suspicious. Can't be bothered to go through paper work.
and
2) "duel" turned to murder.

Really?

If Tullis thought the protagonist was a Stormcloak, he wouldn't have allowed him to become a member of the Legion, or would have at least voiced concern over possible Stormcloak sympathies.

Oh, so you can join the Imperial when you are getting your head chopped off?
No, you can join afterwards. You know, when they can do the paperwork and check you up when you do the first mission for the Imperials.

The duel was in accordance with Nord tradition, and even the High King accepted it when Ulfric challenged him.

He couldn't refuse. Due to the same laws. If it was clean, why do you think the guy got his head chopped of in Solitude? You see - it was NOT a duel. it was murder. Ulfric knew he was stronger, knew the High King could not refuse and he used the shout.

They aren't invincible - Hammerfell demonstrated this.

With the help of Imperials from the Empire. You see, the "core" of the army that repelled the Thalmor from Hammerfell was Imperials. Look it up.

Torygg could have declined, he had free will.

If he declined, he would not be High King anymore. The Jarls would question his strength. So no, he could not decline -- he was forced to fight.

It's not cold-blooded murder because it was a duel that both men consented to

I suggest you learn what "duel" means. A duel is:

TWO people fighting.
EQUAL condition -- meaning equal gear. Though this is kind of loose, using a shout is not OK. The High King could then take an army with him in the duel, and it would be fair.
the only thing that decides the aoutcome is SKILLS.

Using the Shout was against it, and is not OK.

Again, to clarify:
He HAD to accept, and he got murdered thanks to Ulfric using the Shout.
It is NOT obvious you are not Stormcloak in the start. Heck, it's the least obvious outcome I can think of, if I was the general.
A duel means EQUAL gear, different skills. Shouting is not allowed unless the other part knows a shout. Torygg did not.
Hammerfell did NOT beat the Thalmor alone. They had veteran Imperial soldiers than formed the core of their army.

I bleieve that summed it up.

Edited by Matth85, 22 December 2011 - 06:50 PM.

[Handofbane]

I am also sure anybody who recently got killed by a bomb would care. It doesn't work like that: the protagonist is in a bad position, and that is bad. However, his opinion means very little. Guilty untill proven otherwise, where they don't feel to prove it. Sad? perhaps, but it is how it 'should' be done.

I find it interesting that you continue to defend the Legion trying to murder an innocent person who was clearly not a member of the Stormcloaks, but villify Ulfric for challenging the High King to a legal duel for the throne because the High King lost the fight.

The part I find interesting is the defense of Ulfric in his murder of the High King as honorable, while completely ignoring the mass murder committed by the same man after the Battle of Markarth was over against not just Forsworn, but Nords as well. Or were you taking a reivisionist history view and saying that never happened, or was even an honorable action? "You are either with us, or against Skyrim."