40 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

The Thalmor couldn't possibly have been in a position to continue that war any more than the Empire could, but the Emperor blinked first and accepted simply insane peace conditions. When two sides are that beaten up, it's the defenders who are going to be able to carry on more than the aggressors.

We know absolutely NOTHING about what the terms of the White Gold Concordant was beyond the sucession of parts of southren Hammerfell, disbanding the Blades and the outlaw of Talos worship. No treaty, to my knowlege, exists in so few concepts which are completely against the relative victor. It is reasonable to assume there were also concessions which the Domminion had to agree to, but since its the Empires concessions which form a driving part of the storyline in Skyrim, we don't hear anything about what the Thalmor had to give up.

Admitedly, Mede screwed the pooch on that one. I think his death at the end of the DB questline shows he recognises that, and he seems to beleive that his death will make the Empire stronger. Whether it does or not remains to be seen. Regardless, this isn't the place for more Empire/Stormcloak bickering.

The whole point is, nothing you do is pointless. Even if you're just resetting the clock, your giving the world more time.

[Khorak]

The Thalmor couldn't possibly have been in a position to continue that war any more than the Empire could, but the Emperor blinked first and accepted simply insane peace conditions. When two sides are that beaten up, it's the defenders who are going to be able to carry on more than the aggressors.

We know absolutely NOTHING about what the terms of the White Gold Concordant was beyond the sucession of parts of southren Hammerfell, disbanding the Blades and the outlaw of Talos worship. No treaty, to my knowlege, exists in so few concepts which are completely against the relative victor. It is reasonable to assume there were also concessions which the Domminion had to agree to, but since its the Empires concessions which form a driving part of the storyline in Skyrim, we don't hear anything about what the Thalmor had to give up. Even pro-Empire sources are entirely silent on the subject of there being concessions by the Thalmor when they should be trumpeting them as loudly as possible.

Admitedly, Mede screwed the pooch on that one. I think his death at the end of the DB questline shows he recognises that, and he seems to beleive that his death will make the Empire stronger. Whether it does or not remains to be seen. Regardless, this isn't the place for more Empire/Stormcloak bickering.

The whole point is, nothing you do is pointless. Even if you're just resetting the clock, your giving the world more time.

There is absolutely no indication at all that the Thamor did anything but put up peace as their half of the White-Gold Concordat. It wouldn't be contentious if the Empire had gained any sort of concessions out of the Thalmor in return! It just doesn't make any sense to assume, from basically nothing at all, that the treaty is anything other than what we are very consistently told it is. It is even noted that the terms of the treaty are basically the same as the demands the Thalmor made before the war started, and that such a demand would have been just flat-out impossible for the Empire to concede to until the war reached an end.

This is a big driving point behind why the Empire can be seen as a failing institution for people who pick the Stormcloaks; it really has massively dropped the ball by signing a lopsided peace treaty and then allowing monumental dissent to develop through its enforcement to appease the Thalmor. Thanks to this one-sided treaty the Empire has lost Hammerfell and depending on future choices, Skyrim as well. It doesn't track that they got anything out of the Aldmeri Dominion for it, such an idea runs counter to....well, everything.

Edited by Khorak, 26 December 2011 - 03:50 PM.

[marharth]

The thalmor make no sense.

They are willing to ban talos worship and cause so many issues. Why do they care so much?

I am also not sure why the whole history of martin septim got lost. It is fact that Tiber Septim was a Aedra. If he was not then the portal to paradise would have not worked.

Sure they are Nazi elves and hate the fact that a human became a god, but why do they have to be so insanely stupid to ban talos worship and make a major threat? If they want to wipe out humanity they should just let them go on with what they are doing. It would be a lot better to attack a unaware enemy then attack a enemy that knows you are a serious threat.

[darklight12345]

The thalmor make no sense.

They are willing to ban talos worship and cause so many issues. Why do they care so much?

I am also not sure why the whole history of martin septim got lost. It is fact that Tiber Septim was a Aedra. If he was not then the portal to paradise would have not worked.

Sure they are Nazi elves and hate the fact that a human became a god, but why do they have to be so insanely stupid to ban talos worship and make a major threat? If they want to wipe out humanity they should just let them go on with what they are doing. It would be a lot better to attack a unaware enemy then attack a enemy that knows you are a serious threat.

look at all the tensions in the real world between religion. Look at Islam and Christianity and Judaism. The key diference between each one is that there is an ADDED person to the pantheon. For christianity it is judaism, and the jewish people couldn't accept him as the messiah and this caused a shitload of problems. Then there is Islam, where the biggest difference was that christianity said there would be no more prophets, and then muslims believe Muhammad was/is a prophet.

The type of war shown with the Thalmor/Empire is the same type of war that has been fought throughout history.


ALSO, from what we can tell, the Thalmor dont disbelieve in Tiber Septim, just in Talos. This sounds weird but it makes sense. They believe in the man that became more then a man, they just consider it sacrilege that he is treated on the same level as the Aedra/divines. I for one, am surprised that the war in skyrim wasn't over Shor and Sovngarde, but i dont really know how those two would fit into the whole scheme of things.

[marharth]

The thalmor make no sense.

They are willing to ban talos worship and cause so many issues. Why do they care so much?

I am also not sure why the whole history of martin septim got lost. It is fact that Tiber Septim was a Aedra. If he was not then the portal to paradise would have not worked.

Sure they are Nazi elves and hate the fact that a human became a god, but why do they have to be so insanely stupid to ban talos worship and make a major threat? If they want to wipe out humanity they should just let them go on with what they are doing. It would be a lot better to attack a unaware enemy then attack a enemy that knows you are a serious threat.

look at all the tensions in the real world between religion. Look at Islam and Christianity and Judaism. The key diference between each one is that there is an ADDED person to the pantheon. For christianity it is judaism, and the jewish people couldn't accept him as the messiah and this caused a shitload of problems. Then there is Islam, where the biggest difference was that christianity said there would be no more prophets, and then muslims believe Muhammad was/is a prophet.

The type of war shown with the Thalmor/Empire is the same type of war that has been fought throughout history.


ALSO, from what we can tell, the Thalmor dont disbelieve in Tiber Septim, just in Talos. This sounds weird but it makes sense. They believe in the man that became more then a man, they just consider it sacrilege that he is treated on the same level as the Aedra/divines. I for one, am surprised that the war in skyrim wasn't over Shor and Sovngarde, but i dont really know how those two would fit into the whole scheme of things.

They obviously believe in tiber septim. My point is that he was a god without question based on the Oblivion storyline.

[Lachdonin]

There is absolutely no indication at all that the Thamor did anything but put up peace as their half of the White-Gold Concordat. It wouldn't be contentious if the Empire had gained any sort of concessions out of the Thalmor in return! It just doesn't make any sense to assume, from basically nothing at all, that the treaty is anything other than what we are very consistently told it is. It is even noted that the terms of the treaty are basically the same as the demands the Thalmor made before the war started, and that such a demand would have been just flat-out impossible for the Empire to concede to until the war reached an end.

This is a big driving point behind why the Empire can be seen as a failing institution for people who pick the Stormcloaks; it really has massively dropped the ball by signing a lopsided peace treaty and then allowing monumental dissent to develop through its enforcement to appease the Thalmor. Thanks to this one-sided treaty the Empire has lost Hammerfell and depending on future choices, Skyrim as well. It doesn't track that they got anything out of the Aldmeri Dominion for it, such an idea runs counter to....well, everything.

The tready that ended the 100 years war between England and France involved concesions on both sides. France lost several territories in Normandy, England was forced to pay a tythe to the French thone for over half of the next century. The points of contention within each power, post treaty, was limited solely to what they were forced to give up, and with the exception of the official treaty doccument, there is next to no recorded communication regarding the concessions of the opposing side within either country.

Do we have the actual White-Gold concordant to read? No. As such, we do not know the specific terms of the treaty. Claiming that the Empire was the only one give something up is argueing from the possition that 'Absence of evidence is evidence of absence'. Thats a logical fallacy.


As for why the Thalmor care so much about Talos, its because of a difference in fundimental philosophy. The Altmer, and by extention all Elves, beleive that they are decended from the divine Et'ada who gave up their divinity to create Mundus. As such, they are effectivly neutered gods. Man, on the other hand, is a CREATION of those same Et'ada, more specificly Lorkhan, a rather unsavory figure in Elven myth.

The Altmer, and by extention the Thalmor, beleive in Talos as a man. There are still some aiive who actually remember him. What they contend is that a Man can become a god, mostly because they themselves are unable of acheiving the same apothesis. If a former god can't become one again, how can a true mortal ever acheive godhood?

THAT is why they dispute the beleif in Talos's divinity.

Of course, Talos was a Dragonborn, and thus carried the divine spark of Akatosh. As such, Talos was less a man elevated to godhood and more an avatar of a god who himself acheived a possition within the pantheon. The Oblivion crisis isn't the proof of that, since the whole end-game was Akatosh's doing and not Talos's, but we know that there has been at least one Avatar of Talos. Avatars require divinity, and thus Talos's divinity has been proven. Alas, the only person who saw was the Nerevarine, and he's off on his little adventure in the orient.

[marharth]

There is absolutely no indication at all that the Thamor did anything but put up peace as their half of the White-Gold Concordat. It wouldn't be contentious if the Empire had gained any sort of concessions out of the Thalmor in return! It just doesn't make any sense to assume, from basically nothing at all, that the treaty is anything other than what we are very consistently told it is. It is even noted that the terms of the treaty are basically the same as the demands the Thalmor made before the war started, and that such a demand would have been just flat-out impossible for the Empire to concede to until the war reached an end.

This is a big driving point behind why the Empire can be seen as a failing institution for people who pick the Stormcloaks; it really has massively dropped the ball by signing a lopsided peace treaty and then allowing monumental dissent to develop through its enforcement to appease the Thalmor. Thanks to this one-sided treaty the Empire has lost Hammerfell and depending on future choices, Skyrim as well. It doesn't track that they got anything out of the Aldmeri Dominion for it, such an idea runs counter to....well, everything.

The tready that ended the 100 years war between England and France involved concesions on both sides. France lost several territories in Normandy, England was forced to pay a tythe to the French thone for over half of the next century. The points of contention within each power, post treaty, was limited solely to what they were forced to give up, and with the exception of the official treaty doccument, there is next to no recorded communication regarding the concessions of the opposing side within either country.

Do we have the actual White-Gold concordant to read? No. As such, we do not know the specific terms of the treaty. Claiming that the Empire was the only one give something up is argueing from the possition that 'Absence of evidence is evidence of absence'. Thats a logical fallacy.


As for why the Thalmor care so much about Talos, its because of a difference in fundimental philosophy. The Altmer, and by extention all Elves, beleive that they are decended from the divine Et'ada who gave up their divinity to create Mundus. As such, they are effectivly neutered gods. Man, on the other hand, is a CREATION of those same Et'ada, more specificly Lorkhan, a rather unsavory figure in Elven myth.

The Altmer, and by extention the Thalmor, beleive in Talos as a man. There are still some aiive who actually remember him. What they contend is that a Man can become a god, mostly because they themselves are unable of acheiving the same apothesis. If a former god can't become one again, how can a true mortal ever acheive godhood?

THAT is why they dispute the beleif in Talos's divinity.

Of course, Talos was a Dragonborn, and thus carried the divine spark of Akatosh. As such, Talos was less a man elevated to godhood and more an avatar of a god who himself acheived a possition within the pantheon. The Oblivion crisis isn't the proof of that, since the whole end-game was Akatosh's doing and not Talos's, but we know that there has been at least one Avatar of Talos. Avatars require divinity, and thus Talos's divinity has been proven. Alas, the only person who saw was the Nerevarine, and he's off on his little adventure in the orient.

The Oblivion crisis is proof that he is a divine. Martin Septim directly stated you require the blood of a divine to counter the daedric artifact. Tiber Septims blood worked.

[pchefkent]

Also with the KotN dlc it specifically states that u needed the blessing of Talos to finally defeat Umarill the Unfeathered. That same missing blessing was the reason Pelinal Whitestrake was unable to fully defeat Umaril the first time around since without it he could not follow him to the astral plane to kill his soul there. As to whether all this was pointless, im reminded of a quote " Every event is preceeded by prophesy, but without a hero there can be no event". The conflict between the Dovakiin and Alduin was apparently fortold but as to whether it is permanent or not is unknown. Regarding the Thalmor i think its just their intention to remake tamriel to what their ancestors had during the mythic times(i.e without men). and the very first step to the removal of men would be the removal of their god. and to remove a gods power in tamriel is to remove his worship.

Edited by pchefkent, 27 December 2011 - 09:41 AM.

[Iv000]

The thalmor make no sense.

They are willing to ban talos worship and cause so many issues. Why do they care so much?

I am also not sure why the whole history of martin septim got lost. It is fact that Tiber Septim was a Aedra. If he was not then the portal to paradise would have not worked.

Sure they are Nazi elves and hate the fact that a human became a god, but why do they have to be so insanely stupid to ban talos worship and make a major threat? If they want to wipe out humanity they should just let them go on with what they are doing. It would be a lot better to attack a unaware enemy then attack a enemy that knows you are a serious threat.

I'm not sure if it was posted here, but there is a thread on Reddit (Link) making really interesting theories about the Thalmor (Altmer) trying to remove men from existence.
One of the more interesting theories says that the Thalmor are in Skyrim because of the Throat of the world, which is the last of the 8 towers that stabilize Mundus. (The others were destroyed (Like Red Mountain in Morrowind) or they were disabled (White Gold, in Cyrodill))
The first book you find in Skyrim (In the torture chamber, The book of the Dragonbord) hints to that too:

I leave you with what is known as "The Prophecy of the Dragonborn". It often said to originate in an Elder Scroll, although it is sometimes also attributed to the ancient Akaviri. Many have attempted to decipher it, and many have also believed that its omens had been fulfilled and that the advent of the "Last Dragonborn" was at hand. I make no claims as an interpreter of prophecy, but it does suggest that the true significance of Akatosh's gift to mortalkind has yet to be fully understood.

When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world

When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped

When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles

When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn."


You can also find some Altmer commentaries on Talos in the imperial library:

To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

Also, if interested read this: http://www.ulthuan.n...=37245&start=30

The only thing that prevents them from doing that is, like I said, the last of the 8 towers, the Snow tower.

tl/dr:
The Thalmor/Altmer want to destroy Mundus (The mortal plane) and all the other races, so they can become divine spirits.

This sounds like future DLC.

Edited by Iv000, 27 December 2011 - 11:16 AM.

[Lachdonin]

Also with the KotN dlc it specifically states that u needed the blessing of Talos to finally defeat Umarill the Unfeathered. That same missing blessing was the reason Pelinal Whitestrake was unable to fully defeat Umaril the first time around since without it he could not follow him to the astral plane to kill his soul there.

Eh, i never played Knights of the Nine. That whole Talos thing reaks of a writer who didn't read the TES lore, however, since Pelinal was a Shezzarine, and thus at least as divine as the Dragonborn, probably moreso since he was something of a direct avatar and not some panzy representitive.

And for the Oblivon crisis thing, again, it was the link to Akatosh, not the link to Talos, which allowed Martin to do what he did. Talos was Dragonborn, thus had the divine blood of Akatosh. Yes, Martin's line to Talos was a source of power, but that source was Akatosh, so he's really the one who did the work, not Talos. It's also the fact that he shares the blood of Akatosh that would have allowed you to use his blood to open the gate to Cameron's Paradise. Ironicly, you should have been able to use Martin's as well, since he shared the divine blood... Would have save you a trip to some dank dungeon.

Still, we do in fact know Talos is a god because of his avatar in Morrowind.