47 replies to this topic

[thesapien]

I go with the solution that requires no additional stuff to be made up to accomodate it. Which is that Alduin is a malicious, murderous destroyer and dominator who will land specifically to roast a wounded, already dying man in front of his child, and decided to destroy Helgen because he wanted to. In the process, he inadvertantly saved the Dragonborn and allowed the prophesy of the Elder Scrolls to come true.

Sorry if that isn't pointlessly intricate enough for people. I could create a needless and obfuscating hypothesis that makes Helgen into a nexus of magical energy, capable of restoring the fabled six Dragon Paladins to life, who would defeat Alduin, purify dragons of their evil, base natures and destroy the Thalmor, ushering in a beautiful world of love, peace and ashen fields of Altmer remains. Alduin did this to prevent mortals discovering this mighty power, because he wouldn't want the return of his six DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN! BROTHERS AND SISTERS! OMFG!

Massive evil dragon burns down village he comes across. Fabled hero escapes the carnage. They couldn't have made this more simplistic and cliche if they tried. Literally, they couldn't. This stuff even turns up in TVTropes.

I suppose then that you would explain why Alduin won't engage Dovakiin in combat at other points in the game is just for show, so the show can go on?

Remember with Delphine and the burial ground? There are other times, too, if you happen to be at the right burial ground at the right time, you'll catch him resurrecting another dragon, but he flies off leaving the other dragon to fight you.

[thesapien]

No he wasn't trying to simply kill the Dragonborn. The Headsman could have done that for him.

He was trying to devour his soul. The Dragonborn has the soul of a Aedra, as you could probably guess, this makes his soul really powerful.

Ergo Alduin goes to Helgen to devour Dragonborn's soul, gaining more power in the process.

No, doesn't make sense, since Alduin ignores you after Helgen (until you get the dragonrend), if that would been true, he'd just waited at the exist of the dungeon before you go down to Riversteed. Or would have attacked you the countless times he flies over you in the wilderness.

I've actually tried to engage Alduin in combat several times with different characters while catching him resurrecting dragons. He never fights back. These seem to be random, rare encounters, but there is also the scripted one with Delphine. He won't try to kill you yet for some reason. So, yeah, he seems to following a plan or destiny.

Or he simply doesn't consider you worth his attention (until you learn dragonrend). Thats the most useful/simple story I can come up with. He felt something at Helgen, he investigated you, then considered you a puny worm not worth any second attention. When you learn dragonrend later, he feels that again, and decides its better to finish you off nevertheless.

Yet, those at Helgen were worth his time? Oh, wait, I get what you're saying then. He only attacked Helgen because he was confused after returning. I'm just not sold on this. But maybe I give him too much credit. His "confusion" seemed directed, perhaps right at my Dovakiin.

[faifh]

Yet, those at Helgen were worth his time? Oh, wait, I get what you're saying then. He only attacked Helgen because he was confused after returning. I'm just not sold on this. But maybe I give him too much credit. His "confusion" seemed directed, perhaps right at my Dovakiin.

He felt something, but didn't know what, so he took a look. That was helgen. Then he considered you to be extremly puny (you don't any shout or anything, are level 1, etc) IMHO, is at least the best in story reason I can come up with, other than Beth wanted some epic start.

Edited by faifh, 18 January 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[papawill13]

I am pretty sure the Greybeards dragon said he knew where Alduin would appear but not when. Given Helgens location I would assume he came out of the time rip as you were being executed. I also read somewhere (dont know if it was in game) that no dragonborns were around when Alduin was banished. I highly doubt he knew what you were or even what to do. His tactic used, once he knows who you are, is Never Land and I think that speaks volumes. IMO he had no idea who you were and if he did he would have allowed the Imperials to execute you.

Also I assume he was banished during a great battle (at least thats what the greybeards dragon said), if time did not pass for him then when he escaped the time rip, it would have been like no time had passed and he is still in the middle of the battle. Which to me explains his helter skelter attack on Helgen.

IMO I dont think he knew where he was, or when he was. When he figured it out he changed his whole MO.

[Khorak]

I suppose then that you would explain why Alduin won't engage Dovakiin in combat at other points in the game is just for show, so the show can go on?

Remember with Delphine and the burial ground? There are other times, too, if you happen to be at the right burial ground at the right time, you'll catch him resurrecting another dragon, but he flies off leaving the other dragon to fight you.

He treats you with contempt. He speaks to you in dragon language and then laments you don't even know what he's saying, that you shouldn't be calling yourself Dovahkiin, then tells the dragon he just raised to kill you. It doesn't take absurd leaps to work out his actions after that event. Either he still thinks you're contemptible and isn't going to bother coming down there to fight you himself, or he's smart enough to definitely not come down there to fight you himself. The former is more likely, since he immediately makes to kill you when you break out a damn Elder Scroll and learn Dragonrend by tearing your way through time with it, showing that, huh, probably can't just keep raising dragons and letting the problem solve itself, might have to personally go get this 'Dovahkiin'. The storytelling is poor beyond belief regarding Alduin and the main quest, it's a classic Heroes Journey that falls flat on its face instead of having any real flair and flourish to raise it up.

Why do people massively overthink something so simple? This isn't even meant to be difficult. The two dimensional, designated bad guy, a**hole nature of Alduin is one of the narrative flaws of the game. He's just a big scaly monster with "Endgame Boss" stamped to his face, so people just don't give a damn when they pound that face in at Sovngarde. Quite a lot of people don't even realise they just blitzed the main quest. Alduin has approximately the same motivations of a guy tying women to train tracks, he has the depth of a rapidly evaporating puddle of pee. Main Bad Guy turns up at the start of the story to kill a bunch of people and set the scene, because he's a dick and we need to see that, inadvertantly saves the very Hero of the story, OMG that's a new twist, said Hero then goes on a journey during which he makes friends, learns lessons about himself and how he's special and other such things, is treated like a whelp by the Main Bad Guy, who is a dick dontchaknow, then the Hero proves himself, Main Bad Guy turns up for Final Confrontation, gets anus handed to him on a silver platter studded with precious gemstones, runs away to his Tower Of Evil shaking his fist and probably saying something about getting you next time Gadget, is pursued by Mighty Hero (Upgrade from Hero! Good going!), and is killed in Proper Final Confrontation. The End.

At least Dagoth Ur was erudite. At least he had motivations. Damn, the guy was happy to sit down for a conversation over tea and crumpets before the screaming and stabbing started. By the end of Morrowind you were pretty damn sure Vivec and the Tribunal were just as bad as Dagoth Ur. And Oblivion realised Mehrunes Dagon would be about as interesting an antagonist as....well, Alduin, so they used Mankar Camoran to give character to the bad guys and used Mehrunes Dagon as a kind of fantasy equivalent to a nuke instead, his one dimensional motivation was properly utilised by making him a personified apocalypse and shunting proper Bad Guy duties onto a guy who could talk in a slightly broader fashion and with greater motivational depths than KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

Why did Alduin burn down Helgen? He's evil. One dimensionally so. Why doesn't he just immediately kill an enemy like any good, neutral or pragmatic person would instead of treating them with contempt and mockery up until the point that, ooops, the enemy has become massively powerful? He's evil. One dimensionally so. Why is he the only dragon with a unique, armoured, more spiky and more black look? He's evil. One dimensionally so. We do we end up not giving a damn? He's evil. One dimensionally so. His name is 'Destroyer Devour Master' for heavens sake!

Come to think of it, if Alduin got any more unthinkingly one dimensional (by taking out his one line of dialogue), it would cause a paradox where he'd inadvertantly become more complicated through the mysteriousness of his silence.

[huntsman2310]

Well its a bit hard for the prophesised destroyer of the world to be more then one dimensional. I mean unless he wasn't a Dragon.

[thesapien]

I suppose then that you would explain why Alduin won't engage Dovakiin in combat at other points in the game is just for show, so the show can go on?

Remember with Delphine and the burial ground? There are other times, too, if you happen to be at the right burial ground at the right time, you'll catch him resurrecting another dragon, but he flies off leaving the other dragon to fight you.

He treats you with contempt. He speaks to you in dragon language and then laments you don't even know what he's saying, that you shouldn't be calling yourself Dovahkiin, then tells the dragon he just raised to kill you. It doesn't take absurd leaps to work out his actions after that event. Either he still thinks you're contemptible and isn't going to bother coming down there to fight you himself, or he's smart enough to definitely not come down there to fight you himself. The former is more likely, since he immediately makes to kill you when you break out a damn Elder Scroll and learn Dragonrend by tearing your way through time with it, showing that, huh, probably can't just keep raising dragons and letting the problem solve itself, might have to personally go get this 'Dovahkiin'. The storytelling is poor beyond belief regarding Alduin and the main quest, it's a classic Heroes Journey that falls flat on its face instead of having any real flair and flourish to raise it up.

Why do people massively overthink something so simple? This isn't even meant to be difficult. The two dimensional, designated bad guy, a**hole nature of Alduin is one of the narrative flaws of the game. He's just a big scaly monster with "Endgame Boss" stamped to his face, so people just don't give a damn when they pound that face in at Sovngarde. Quite a lot of people don't even realise they just blitzed the main quest. Alduin has approximately the same motivations of a guy tying women to train tracks, he has the depth of a rapidly evaporating puddle of pee. Main Bad Guy turns up at the start of the story to kill a bunch of people and set the scene, because he's a dick and we need to see that, inadvertantly saves the very Hero of the story, OMG that's a new twist, said Hero then goes on a journey during which he makes friends, learns lessons about himself and how he's special and other such things, is treated like a whelp by the Main Bad Guy, who is a dick dontchaknow, then the Hero proves himself, Main Bad Guy turns up for Final Confrontation, gets anus handed to him on a silver platter studded with precious gemstones, runs away to his Tower Of Evil shaking his fist and probably saying something about getting you next time Gadget, is pursued by Mighty Hero (Upgrade from Hero! Good going!), and is killed in Proper Final Confrontation. The End.

At least Dagoth Ur was erudite. At least he had motivations. Damn, the guy was happy to sit down for a conversation over tea and crumpets before the screaming and stabbing started. By the end of Morrowind you were pretty damn sure Vivec and the Tribunal were just as bad as Dagoth Ur. And Oblivion realised Mehrunes Dagon would be about as interesting an antagonist as....well, Alduin, so they used Mankar Camoran to give character to the bad guys and used Mehrunes Dagon as a kind of fantasy equivalent to a nuke instead, his one dimensional motivation was properly utilised by making him a personified apocalypse and shunting proper Bad Guy duties onto a guy who could talk in a slightly broader fashion and with greater motivational depths than KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

Why did Alduin burn down Helgen? He's evil. One dimensionally so. Why doesn't he just immediately kill an enemy like any good, neutral or pragmatic person would instead of treating them with contempt and mockery up until the point that, ooops, the enemy has become massively powerful? He's evil. One dimensionally so. Why is he the only dragon with a unique, armoured, more spiky and more black look? He's evil. One dimensionally so. We do we end up not giving a damn? He's evil. One dimensionally so. His name is 'Destroyer Devour Master' for heavens sake!

Come to think of it, if Alduin got any more unthinkingly one dimensional (by taking out his one line of dialogue), it would cause a paradox where he'd inadvertantly become more complicated through the mysteriousness of his silence.

Wait, who is one-dimensional again?

[thesapien]

Well its a bit hard for the prophesised destroyer of the world to be more then one dimensional. I mean unless he wasn't a Dragon.

You're just jealous of the wings.

[thesapien]

Yet, those at Helgen were worth his time? Oh, wait, I get what you're saying then. He only attacked Helgen because he was confused after returning. I'm just not sold on this. But maybe I give him too much credit. His "confusion" seemed directed, perhaps right at my Dovakiin.

He felt something, but didn't know what, so he took a look. That was helgen. Then he considered you to be extremly puny (you don't any shout or anything, are level 1, etc) IMHO, is at least the best in story reason I can come up with, other than Beth wanted some epic start.

Well, apparently it wasn't an epic start, according to many here. I didn't think it was epic on my first play-through. Now, I really actually kind of appreciate it differently but am aware I'm alone in the vocal crowd here on this.

[faifh]

I suppose then that you would explain why Alduin won't engage Dovakiin in combat at other points in the game is just for show, so the show can go on?

Remember with Delphine and the burial ground? There are other times, too, if you happen to be at the right burial ground at the right time, you'll catch him resurrecting another dragon, but he flies off leaving the other dragon to fight you.

He treats you with contempt. He speaks to you in dragon language and then laments you don't even know what he's saying, that you shouldn't be calling yourself Dovahkiin, then tells the dragon he just raised to kill you. It doesn't take absurd leaps to work out his actions after that event. Either he still thinks you're contemptible and isn't going to bother coming down there to fight you himself, or he's smart enough to definitely not come down there to fight you himself. The former is more likely, since he immediately makes to kill you when you break out a damn Elder Scroll and learn Dragonrend by tearing your way through time with it, showing that, huh, probably can't just keep raising dragons and letting the problem solve itself, might have to personally go get this 'Dovahkiin'. The storytelling is poor beyond belief regarding Alduin and the main quest, it's a classic Heroes Journey that falls flat on its face instead of having any real flair and flourish to raise it up.

Why do people massively overthink something so simple? This isn't even meant to be difficult. The two dimensional, designated bad guy, a**hole nature of Alduin is one of the narrative flaws of the game. He's just a big scaly monster with "Endgame Boss" stamped to his face, so people just don't give a damn when they pound that face in at Sovngarde. Quite a lot of people don't even realise they just blitzed the main quest. Alduin has approximately the same motivations of a guy tying women to train tracks, he has the depth of a rapidly evaporating puddle of pee. Main Bad Guy turns up at the start of the story to kill a bunch of people and set the scene, because he's a dick and we need to see that, inadvertantly saves the very Hero of the story, OMG that's a new twist, said Hero then goes on a journey during which he makes friends, learns lessons about himself and how he's special and other such things, is treated like a whelp by the Main Bad Guy, who is a dick dontchaknow, then the Hero proves himself, Main Bad Guy turns up for Final Confrontation, gets anus handed to him on a silver platter studded with precious gemstones, runs away to his Tower Of Evil shaking his fist and probably saying something about getting you next time Gadget, is pursued by Mighty Hero (Upgrade from Hero! Good going!), and is killed in Proper Final Confrontation. The End.

At least Dagoth Ur was erudite. At least he had motivations. Damn, the guy was happy to sit down for a conversation over tea and crumpets before the screaming and stabbing started. By the end of Morrowind you were pretty damn sure Vivec and the Tribunal were just as bad as Dagoth Ur. And Oblivion realised Mehrunes Dagon would be about as interesting an antagonist as....well, Alduin, so they used Mankar Camoran to give character to the bad guys and used Mehrunes Dagon as a kind of fantasy equivalent to a nuke instead, his one dimensional motivation was properly utilised by making him a personified apocalypse and shunting proper Bad Guy duties onto a guy who could talk in a slightly broader fashion and with greater motivational depths than KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

Why did Alduin burn down Helgen? He's evil. One dimensionally so. Why doesn't he just immediately kill an enemy like any good, neutral or pragmatic person would instead of treating them with contempt and mockery up until the point that, ooops, the enemy has become massively powerful? He's evil. One dimensionally so. Why is he the only dragon with a unique, armoured, more spiky and more black look? He's evil. One dimensionally so. We do we end up not giving a damn? He's evil. One dimensionally so. His name is 'Destroyer Devour Master' for heavens sake!

Come to think of it, if Alduin got any more unthinkingly one dimensional (by taking out his one line of dialogue), it would cause a paradox where he'd inadvertantly become more complicated through the mysteriousness of his silence.

Indeed, the "ultimate evil" with no inner motivations is just a bad overused story device than "rescue the princess". I like stories that give a frame, why somebody (or something) went to become your antagonist.