73 replies to this topic

[chanchan05]

To add, the Daedra contend that they are more powerful than the Aedra but I seem to have forgotten how could Akatosh defeat Dagon if the Daedra are supposed to be higher ranked. Even Boethiah was contemptuous of gods (Aedra) when you talk to her/him in the Skyrim quest for her artifact.

[Lachdonin]

The Akatosh/Dagon fight could hardly be considered fair. Dagon was essentially invading Akatosh's realm, which gives Akatosh a major home-field advantage, even if the Aedra are generally weaker. When Clavicus Vile was diminished because of Umbra taking a bite out of him, none of the other Daedra made a move against him, probably because of the home-field advantage.

The differance with teh Oblivion Crisis is that, without a conduit, Akatosh couldn't interfere. He needed Martin's body as a focus for his power, wheras Dagon could litterally just walk in. One on one, in completely neutral territory, i would say a Daedra, even a weak one like Malacath, could beat any of the Divines. Maybe not any Aedra, since many of them escaped before begomming too weak, but the Divines are weakened to the point where they cannot leave their domains in any potent capacity.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Akatosh/Dagon fight could hardly be considered fair. Dagon was essentially invading Akatosh's realm, which gives Akatosh a major home-field advantage, even if the Aedra are generally weaker. When Clavicus Vile was diminished because of Umbra taking a bite out of him, none of the other Daedra made a move against him, probably because of the home-field advantage.

The differance with teh Oblivion Crisis is that, without a conduit, Akatosh couldn't interfere. He needed Martin's body as a focus for his power, wheras Dagon could litterally just walk in. One on one, in completely neutral territory, i would say a Daedra, even a weak one like Malacath, could beat any of the Divines. Maybe not any Aedra, since many of them escaped before begomming too weak, but the Divines are weakened to the point where they cannot leave their domains in any potent capacity.

Mundus? Akatosh's realm? That's a laugh. Mundus is Lorkhan's/Talos's/Stithis's realm, if anyones.


Also in your "deadra could beat any divine" statement, you forget Talos, who is a divine, one who has achieved CHIM, the 2nd highest state of being one can achieve.

Talos could curbstomp anyone except Vivec, who is the only person equal to him in power, if he so desired.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Lachdonin]

Akatosh is the source of at least one of the major barriers between Mundus and Oblivion. He is the chief god of the primary Pantheon of Tamriel, and the god which most commonly interacts with the mortals of Mundus. Whether or not the realm once belonged to Lorkhan, it is under the defacto control fo Akatosh now. You would also do well to note that i said 'effectivly' Akatosh's domain. We all know Akatosh has a true domain, which he is functionally trapped in, but he is still much more closely linked to Mundus than any of the Daedra. The curb in front of my house is more mine than some Norweigen interloper who suddenly takes a fancy in concrete, simply through contact and proximity.

As for Talos, he's something else entirely. While he may be worshiped as a a god, but he's no more in the same category as the Divines than a mudcrab is. Bringing him up just detracts from the actual conversation of Daedra vs Aedra.

Edited by Lachdonin, 16 February 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

As for Talos, he's something else entirely. While he may be worshiped as a a god, but he's no more in the same category as the Divines than a mudcrab is. Bringing him up just detracts from the actual conversation of Daedra vs Aedra.

Except he is a divine, as the "divines" is a label used to refer to the being worshiped as gods, Talos is a divine because people labeled him as so, but you are correct he is not an Aedra but one does not need to be an Aedra to be a divine.


However contrary to what you said in an earlier post the Aedra do not need a conduit to appear in the mortal realm. The Neravarine met several of the gods, disguised as mortals, in Morrowind and they required no "conduit" to appear.


Also I would remind you that it was BOTH Lorkhan AND Akatosh that created the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires. Talos being Lorkhan reborn, with a hint of Akatosh in him, is also the holder of the same barrier Akatosh holds.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Lachdonin]

But no one else sees them. Then again, Wulf is the only one you really meet in an area with other people, and as an avatar of Talos he can do whatever the hell he pleases. The Divines can certianly interact with certian individuals through visions, and Uriel VII alluded to being 'spoken to' by the Divines, but the type of interaction we see as common with the Daedra doesn't exist with the Aedra. We don't see the Aedra causing flaming dogs to rain from the sky, or sending off minions into Mundus to do their bidding, or striking people down with lightning. The only real interaction with Mundus comes through their shrines, which would just as easily be enchanted rather than blessed.

IF Akatosh was indeed powerful enough to manifest on Mundus without a conduit, why let Dagon run roughshod over the Imperial city the way he did? Was it simply pure coincedence that he appeared when Martin shattered the Amulet of Kings? Why would Akatosh allow Alduin to destroy the world?

Their lack of intervention alone is enough to indicate that their ability to interact is limited, not including the fact that we're told they are effectivly trapped in their own realms.


Regardless, is it safe to say that we both agree that, at least initially, the Aedra and Daedra were on completely equal footing, but the creation of Mundus diminished the Aedra, meaning that now (so long as Mundus exists) the Aedra are generally weaker than the Daedra?

Of course, the Daedra are varriable in power themselves, with Malacath and Clavicus Vile being more towards the bottom of the totem pole, and Dagon likely being at the top...

Edited by Lachdonin, 16 February 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Aedra don't NEED or have a desire to do those things. The Aedra want humanity to find CHIM, it is why they gave up a large chunk of their power to create Mundus.

However, Akatosh didn't just appear to stop Dagon the moment he showed up for the same reason the Aedra don't just give the races the secret to CHIM, because the races have to EARN it. Just GIVING the races everything they desire doesn't teach them anything. Martin's selfless act of sacrifice earned the races Akatosh's protection in that moment.

They don't intervene for the same reasons the Q, of Star Trek fame, in their all knowing/nearly all powerfullness don't just eliminate the Borg and other evils of the universe, because doing so teaches the lesser races NOTHING.

I believe the Aedra are still on equal footing with the Deadra even with their diminished powers. Akatosh showed he has the ability to open up a can of whoopass on Dagon.


Though Lorkhan and Akatosh are terrible cheaters by giving the mortal races more of an advantage then they normally would have by sending out agents such as Dragonborns and Shezzarines. Although i guess since none of the Dragonborns and Shezzarines are never guaranteed victories in their quests it isn't that out of balance.

And anyways even if Dagon won Alduin would just be allowed to rampage, destroy the current Kalpa, then Akatosh, Lorkhan, and Mangus would make another one like they have time and time again.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[Lachdonin]

Wait... where are you getting the idea the Aedra want mortals to acheive CHIM? Due to its very nature it's unlikely the Divines even know what CHIM is, because it would even cause them to zero-sum. It also doesn't explain why they cause those who study the Elder Scrolls (probably the best resource in realising the nature of the universe) to go blind.*

Using the Dagon encounter as the sole example of Aedric power is also a dangerous game, because you have the cornered muskrat situation to consider. If desperate enough, a Muskrat can and will kill things several times larger and more powerful. The ability to banish Dagon could have been simply because Akatosh was willing to commit EVERYTHING in an all or nothing gabit. Dagon, on the other hand, wasn't about to put his all into something which, if he lost, would see him destroyed.

We are expressly told that the Aedra were diminished in the creation of Mundus. Some were consumed in their entirety, others managed ot escape, and a few stuck around to watch over the thing they invested their very essences into. If they are still on equal footing with the Daedra, even in their diminished state, it would imply that they were considerably more powerful than the Daedra in the beginning. This, in turn, would imply that Anu is stronger than Padomay, as the Aedra are collectivly more Anu aligned.

The two exist as a duality, each equal to the other, so this whole line of reasoning doesn't pan out. Logically, the Aedra HAVE to be weaker than the current Daedra, but the expression of that weakness is highly subject to the circumstances of their encounter.





* I'm particularly interested in this point, because if there is writen confirmation that the Aedra push mortals to acheive CHIM, then it implies that they know what CHIM is. And knowing what CHIM is means you have acheived CHIM. If that's the case, they would be emediately more powerful than any Daedra could hope to be on that merit alone.

Edited by Lachdonin, 16 February 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

• Zero-Summing only occurs if the person doesn't have the will to maintain individuality after the realization of what CHIM is. There is no evidence that the Aedra are incapable of this. Also much like Lorkhan before them the Aedra most likely purposefully failed CHIM to show others how to not. They never reached the part of CHIM that could cause one to zero-sum.
  
• Lorkahn created Mundus to help the Et'Ada find CHIM, the eternal I, as he had.
  
• I realize I should have been more clear before, what I meant to say was, as stated several times in various books in-game, the Aedra, at least the human races version of them, are said to have WILLINGLY given up their power to help Lorkhan to create Mundus because he was able to convince them to do so, they ave up thier power to help Lokrhan give the Et'Ada a chance to find CHIM. Akatosh, Dibella, Arkay, Talos etc. etc. are trying to help the mortal races find CHIM while Auri-El and his ilk are trying to destroy Mundus to go back to how things were before.
  
• As you yourself pointed out before it all depends on the situation in which thy are fought, Dagon got his ass handed to him by Alduin at least once, and Alduin is known to be merely an aspect of Akatosh and thus below him, and Dagon got his ass kicked by Almelexia and Sotha Sil once as well. Akatosh and the other Aedra may be physically weaker but that does not preclude them from winning a fight.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Lachdonin]

I'm really going to have to ask for the source that states that Lorkhan has acheived CHIM. Even if it's just a forum comment from Kirkbride, since i have never seen anything to indicate this. Talos and Vivec, most definately. The Nerevarine and CoC Potentially (though in the case of the CoC most likely not), but never Lorkhan or any of the Et'ada.