73 replies to this topic

[sajuukkhar9000]

I'm really going to have to ask for the source that states that Lorkhan has acheived CHIM. Even if it's just a forum comment from Kirkbride, since i have never seen anything to indicate this. Talos and Vivec, most definately. The Nerevarine and CoC Potentially (though in the case of the CoC most likely not), but never Lorkhan or any of the Et'ada.

I said he found CHIM, the eternal I, not that he attained it.

Vehk's Teaching
http://www.imperial-.../vehks-teaching

More specifically "...the Tower" subsection
http://www.imperial-...o/content/tower

"What is the rim of the Wheel?

As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed.

Anu’s firstborn, for he mostly desired order, was time, anon Akatosh. Padhome’s firstborn went wandering from the start, changing as he went, and wanted no name but was branded with Lorkhan. As time allowed more and more patterns to individualize, Lorkhan watched the Aurbis shape itself and grew equally delighted and tired with each new shaping. As the gods and demons of the Aurbis erupted, the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once. It was then that he came to the border of the Aurbis.

He saw the Tower, for a circle turned sideways is an “I”. This was the first word of Lorkhan and he would never, ever forget it."


And as later stated in the "More on the Psijic Endeavor" subsection
http://www.imperial-...psijic-endeavor

"That helps little. What examples of the Psijic Endeavor exist today?

The world you stand on is said to be the first attempt at chim. It is also admittedly the most famous. That it was choreographed by Lorkhan and ultimately failed is well-documented, but whether or not this failure was intentional is still disputed.

Wait. Why would anyone want to purposely fail the process of CHIM?

And this is the most-reached destination of all that embark upon this road. Why would Lorkhan and his (unwitting?) agents sabotage their experiments with the Tower? Why would he crumble that which he esteems?

Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to."

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Lachdonin]

I can see your perspective then. I don;t nessessarily agree with it, mind you. Vivec's teaching are notoriously (and in many was nessessarily) cryptic and arguementitive, and he rarely says anything in simple terms. Still, it does suggest that, at the very least, Lorkhan recognises that something known as CHIM exists, even if he does/did not understand it.

Regardless, both the Daedra and Aedra are immensely powerful by mortal standards, and each have advantages in specific circumstances. Akatosh was definately at an advantage during the oblivion Crisis. Trinimac was at a dissadvantage when he was corrupted by Boethia. The exact mark of their power also shifts with exertion, as we see amongst the Daedra they get weaker the larger they extend their domains.

The exact power of an Aedra, compared to a Daedra, then, depends largely on the circumstances of their confrontation, and which individual we are talking about. Trinimac was clearly weaker than Boethia in their encounter, and Akatosh has shown he can defeat (though not in so profound a sense) Dagon in at least one circumstance. Collectivly, at least, i think it's safe to say the Aedra (all of them, not just the Divines) and the Daedra remain on equal footing.

Edited by Lachdonin, 16 February 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[marharth]

I am wondering why Dagon could summon Daedra in Skyrim...

Unless I am incorrect and they came out of his shrine, but pretty sure he was able to summon Daedra.

It seems to me that Daedra are far more powerful then Aedra, at least in the current timeline.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The barrier only prevents Daedric Lords and Daedric armies from coming into Mundus, a couple of Deadra can be summed just as always.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[Lachdonin]

The barrier only prevents Daedric Lords and Daedric armies from coming into Mundus, a couple of Deadra can be summed just as always.

They aren't really summoned though... their 'deployed'. Even during the Oblivion Crisis there are indications that the Oblivion Gates had to be set up on the Mundus side by Mythic Dawn Agents. the Daedra in Morrowind were almost certianlly all summoned and didn't just poof into existance around Daedric shrines. In Skyrim, on the other hand, we have at least 2 instances where the Daedra enter Mundus on their own power, without any summoning or assistance from mortals.

There are not, however, any indications that you can still maintain a stable Oblivion portal, as you could prior to the Oblivion Crisis. Likely any jumping accross the veil is now a one-at-a-time thing, and you can't keep something like an Obliviong Gate working.

Edited by Lachdonin, 16 February 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Again, the barrier only prevent armies from coming through, the gates were needed to bring in armies.

There was never a point in the games that said Daedric Lords can't end several lesser Daedra to the mortal realm if they desire, in fact I think there are several stories about them doing just that.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Lachdonin]

Of course, theres still the fact that apparently the Daedric Princes can still manifest in Mundus in some form or another, which according to the end of Oblivion shouldn't be able to happen. We see this clearly with Barbas, who is in fact just a part of the entity which is Clavicus Vile.

[sajuukkhar9000]

It would be more correct to say Barbas is Vile's version of Haskill, Sheo would be disorganized without Haskill, but they are not the same being. Barbas is not a Daedric Lord, a Daedric Army, or even a significantly powerful Daedra himself.

The barrier is only made to prevent the first two of the 3 listed items above from coming in.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[marharth]

Couldn't a Daedric Prince just summon in a bunch of Daedra then? I don't see what would stop a Daedra from just summoning a ton of Daedra. I don't know of any limits on that, so what is the point of a Oblivion gate in the first place if a Daedric prince can just bring Daedra into Mundus on their own will?

In short, why do you even need an Oblivion gate if you can just bring in Daedra without one? I guess it could stop Dagon himself from entering, but he doesn't really need to enter. An army of Daedra could easily destroy the current empire, and probably even the elf empire.

Also I am wondering why the Daedra don't care about the dragon invasion. It seems to me Daedra would want to stop it since it would either destroy mortals, or take potential souls from them.

Edited by marharth, 16 February 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

As I said before they can only bring a very small number of Daedra into Mundus. The gates are needed to bring in large numbers/Armies.


The Daedra wouldn't care because it really doesn't affect them. Yeah they wouldnt get to toy wit mortals anymore but they still have near limitless numbers of Deadra to torment.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 16 February 2012 - 07:17 PM.