51 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

I really don't feel like going through everything people have replied to right now, but the most logical fact about the Thalmor threat is the location of the High Elf homeland. They live on an island pretty much on the opposite side of the planet... Skyrim is far north and Sumerset Isles is far south. Of any of the facts about the Thalmor, this is the most significant because Skyrim and Morrowind will probably be the last on the list of countries to conquer simply because of their location. If the Empire loses the war, they will probably get reinforced by the Thalmor. If they can't win the war after that, Skyrim probably won't have to worry about the Thalmor since the Thalmor will have exhausted their troops helping the Empire.

This is the real cause and effect. Just think about how far the Roman Empire expanded. They never made it to Asia, and probably didn't know the Americas even existed. Looking at a map of Tamriel can make you forget that the regions are actually much bigger, but appear smaller due to the limitations of the game. I find that most Imperial arguments tend to be immature and unrealistic.

I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. I'm not going to address it here, because it isn't the point of the thread, but... No sense what-so-ever.

The key issue here, really, is that the Dunmer are, as a people, oprotunistic, subversive and generally sneaky gitz. There are numerous reasons for them to do things that are seemingly out of character, like joining the Stormcloaks, but are actually within their character. Their entire way of life is based around the teachings of Boethia, so it's all about maximising ones own potential. If a Dumer thinks he can milk the Stormcloaks for all its worth, he's damn well going to do it.

That said, as the Sarethi sisters show, not all Dunmer are true to their heritage. So, whereas they were, once upon a time, a far more predictable society, their just like everyone else now. Anything goes.

Edited by Lachdonin, 21 September 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[SFBryan18]

I really don't feel like going through everything people have replied to right now, but the most logical fact about the Thalmor threat is the location of the High Elf homeland. They live on an island pretty much on the opposite side of the planet... Skyrim is far north and Sumerset Isles is far south. Of any of the facts about the Thalmor, this is the most significant because Skyrim and Morrowind will probably be the last on the list of countries to conquer simply because of their location. If the Empire loses the war, they will probably get reinforced by the Thalmor. If they can't win the war after that, Skyrim probably won't have to worry about the Thalmor since the Thalmor will have exhausted their troops helping the Empire.

This is the real cause and effect. Just think about how far the Roman Empire expanded. They never made it to Asia, and probably didn't know the Americas even existed. Looking at a map of Tamriel can make you forget that the regions are actually much bigger, but appear smaller due to the limitations of the game. I find that most Imperial arguments tend to be immature and unrealistic.

I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. I'm not going to address it here, because it isn't the point of the thread, but... No sense what-so-ever.

The key issue here, really, is that the Dunmer are, as a people, oprotunistic, subversive and generally sneaky gitz. There are numerous reasons for them to do things that are seemingly out of character, like joining the Stormcloaks, but are actually within their character. Their entire way of life is based around the teachings of Boethia, so it's all about maximising ones own potential. If a Dumer thinks he can milk the Stormcloaks for all its worth, he's damn well going to do it.

It made sense, and you either know it or you have some type of mental limitation that prevents you from comprehending simple logical concepts. Either way, without even the most basic explanation for why you disagree with me, you response is pretty much just trolling.

[MidbossVyers]

2 canon reasons. One is religion. The worship of Boethia and Mephala (heck, there may still be some sects who still follow the memory of Dagoth Ur, who spread chaos using Lorkhan's heart). The other is if your Dunmer is also a member of the Dark Brotherhood, it kinda leaves a bad aftertaste to swear allegiance to someone and then off in the next quest (depending on your character RP).

[Lachdonin]

It made sense, and you either know it or you have some type of mental limitation that prevents you from comprehending simple logical concepts. Either way, without even the most basic explanation for why you disagree with me, you response is pretty much just trolling.

Alright, you want an explination?

First, let's look at the premise that Skyrim would be the last place they invade. With the exception of the initial invasion of Hammerfell, the Domminion has a history of invading neutral territories. First the coup in Valenwood, then taking of Elswyr, and then their continued war in Hammerfell. We know they have naval power because of their island capital and their invasion of Hammerfell, which means that Skyrims geographic location is moot, because travel by sea would still be quicker than travel by land, even IF the Domminion controled Cyrodiil or Highrock. An independant Skyrim makes a much juicer target than an Imperial one, because they can invade without the risk of setting off another war with the Empire, thus picking away the Empires remaining power one province at a time instead of taking it full force.

Second, the idea that, after their conquest of the rest of Tamriel, war wearyness would set in and they wouldn't have the heart (or the forces) to take Skyrim. Who the hell cares? They control the contenant. They would have unlimited resources at their disposal, and after a century or two the simple numerical advantage would render any preperation in Skyrim moot.

Third, the idea that, for some absurd reasons, the Domminion would 'help' the Empire. I don't even know where you're getting that ludicris idea. The Thalmor in Skyrim, and the Legion, both discribe eachother as enemies. The Thalmor are only there to inforce the concordant (and destablise the region) and the Legion wants them gone as much as they don't want to get draged into another Great War. Really, this whole "The Thalmor would help the Empire' notion is the most innacurate and flagrantly ficticious thing you've said.

That said, saying the Imperial arguements are 'immature and unrealistic' may take the cake. Pot calling the kettle, and everything.

[RighthandofSithis]

First, let's look at the premise that Skyrim would be the last place they invade. With the exception of the initial invasion of Hammerfell, the Domminion has a history of invading neutral territories. First the coup in Valenwood, then taking of Elswyr, and then their continued war in Hammerfell. We know they have naval power because of their island capital and their invasion of Hammerfell, which means that Skyrims geographic location is moot, because travel by sea would still be quicker than travel by land, even IF the Domminion controled Cyrodiil or Highrock. An independant Skyrim makes a much juicer target than an Imperial one, because they can invade without the risk of setting off another war with the Empire, thus picking away the Empires remaining power one province at a time instead of taking it full force.

Umm, logistics. No matter how powerful the Aldmeri navy is, they wouldn't be able to safely maintain a supply route across Tamriel. It would stretch thin and become an easy target for enemy navies or pirates.

[Lachdonin]

Umm, logistics. No matter how powerful the Aldmeri navy is, they wouldn't be able to safely maintain a supply route across Tamriel. It would stretch thin and become an easy target for enemy navies or pirates.

We could (and, in fact, have, for almost a year) keep hasing this out, but this isn't the place. The point of my comments (which do have flaws and do themselves fail to take into account the massive complexities involved in this situation) were simply to assuade SFBryan's concerns, and to point out the increasingly grotesque holes in his little curtain. If you feel the need to start up (yet another) Imperial vs Stormcloak thread, i will be happy to turn it into a comprehensive and intelegent discussion, but this thread is about the shifty Dunmer and why they would want to be Stormcloaks. As such, i shall refrain from any more Imperial/Stormcloak comments herein.

Edited by Lachdonin, 22 September 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[SFBryan18]

It made sense, and you either know it or you have some type of mental limitation that prevents you from comprehending simple logical concepts. Either way, without even the most basic explanation for why you disagree with me, you response is pretty much just trolling.

Alright, you want an explination?

First, let's look at the premise that Skyrim would be the last place they invade. With the exception of the initial invasion of Hammerfell, the Domminion has a history of invading neutral territories. First the coup in Valenwood, then taking of Elswyr, and then their continued war in Hammerfell. We know they have naval power because of their island capital and their invasion of Hammerfell, which means that Skyrims geographic location is moot, because travel by sea would still be quicker than travel by land, even IF the Domminion controled Cyrodiil or Highrock. An independant Skyrim makes a much juicer target than an Imperial one, because they can invade without the risk of setting off another war with the Empire, thus picking away the Empires remaining power one province at a time instead of taking it full force.

Second, the idea that, after their conquest of the rest of Tamriel, war wearyness would set in and they wouldn't have the heart (or the forces) to take Skyrim. Who the hell cares? They control the contenant. They would have unlimited resources at their disposal, and after a century or two the simple numerical advantage would render any preperation in Skyrim moot.

Third, the idea that, for some absurd reasons, the Domminion would 'help' the Empire. I don't even know where you're getting that ludicris idea. The Thalmor in Skyrim, and the Legion, both discribe eachother as enemies. The Thalmor are only there to inforce the concordant (and destablise the region) and the Legion wants them gone as much as they don't want to get draged into another Great War. Really, this whole "The Thalmor would help the Empire' notion is the most innacurate and flagrantly ficticious thing you've said.

That said, saying the Imperial arguements are 'immature and unrealistic' may take the cake. Pot calling the kettle, and everything.

The flaw in your first point is that even though they may have a great navy, the Thalmor would still have to sail it around to world. It would be like England trying to wage a war against China back during the days of King Aurthur. Get real.

The flaw in your second point is that controlling territory does not always produce new soldiers. If everyone is dead, it doesn't matter how rich you are... everyone is dead.

The third point is something where Imperial supporting trolls have pretty much come to a conclusion about something which hasn't even happened. You may's well start preaching dooms day theory as well, because it's not absurd at all to believe that the Thalmor would help the Empire win so they could easily take both countries, because by taking Skyrim, the Empire would save the Thalmor from having to fight an extra war. Funny thing is, you are one of the people who say the Empire can defeat the Thalmor if they have Skyrim, but history has shown otherwise. Skyrim was a part of the Empire when the Empire lost the war. And maybe the Thalmor wouldn't reinforce the Empire after all. The whole point was that the Thalmor can't fight a war across a planet in a time before the dark ages. They would need control over everything else first, so Skyrim really doesn't have much to fear.

As for the last part, you've proven it true. You logic is very bias and unrealistic, and you really should stop trying to preach it.

[JanusForbeare]

...Imperial supporting trolls...

...you have some type of mental limitation that prevents you from comprehending simple logical concepts...

SFBryan, why do you feel the need to reduce a hypothetical argument about a fictional world to a series of personal insults against people who don't share your opinion? I'm very tempted to report you for...

CHAPTER IV - Trolling
Trolling is...

Deliberately attempting to goad people into a "flame war" (or, simply put, a "female dog fest") by posting disparaging remarks or comments that you know will incite a negative or nasty response.

...and if you don't start responding in a more mature and civilized way, I might just do it.

Also, you keep asserting that Skyrim "is on the other side of the planet" from the Summerset Isle. Tamriel is not the whole world; it is one continent. Others include Atmora, Yokuda, and Akavir, which are so far away that they don't appear on any maps. A conflict between the Altmer and the Nords would not be "like England trying to wage a war against China" - a much more accurate parallel would be a war between England and Italy, or England and the Turks, both of which occurred during the late middle ages and early renaissance.

Edited by JanusForbeare, 22 September 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[SFBryan18]

The first quote was taken out of context. If you had quoted the entire sentence, then you would see that I was not saying he had the limitations, but that it could be one reason for why he was saying that I made no sense at all... the statement which set the entire thing off.

The second quote is a very petty thing to cry about.

And as for the third... Perhaps you are right about the size of the continent, and perhaps you aren't. Tamriel seems much bigger than Europe, maybe not visually due to to limits of the game, but realistically, it's hard to believe that nine separate races of humanoids were able to evolve in a region that small. Earth only has one species because we out competed everything else, so based on that fact, Tamriel should be much bigger. Maybe Skyrim is not as far as China, but it is probably not as close a Turkey. I'll drop the subject though, because I like Nexus and do not want to show up on radar anymore.

FYI, threatening someone by telling them that you will report them is also considered trolling. It's an attempt to be a vigilante moderator, which is not allowed.

[MidbossVyers]

... This no longer has anything to do with Dunmer, Stormcloaks, or any races or factions anymore, huh?