51 replies to this topic

[Kraeten]

... This no longer has anything to do with Dunmer, Stormcloaks, or any races or factions anymore, huh?

It's what tends to happen when people too sure of themselves argue belligerently. Things get unfortunately off topic.......but let's try to right the ship shall we? In my opinion, a Dunmer just plain wouldn't join the Stormcloaks for a number of reasons. Reasons which have probably already been shared but here goes.

1. Stormcloaks are xenophobic and obviously dislike elves.
2. Any Dunmer with a sense of kinship for his people will disapprove of the ghetto the Dark Elves have been given.
3. Any Dunmer that has a reasonably critical mind will consider the Stormcloaks a bad bet, considering that at the beginning of the game the rebellion had nearly ended before it could really take off.
4. Any Dunmer that might be more interested in the welfare of Skyrim as a whole, should realize that the trade between Skyrim and the Empire benefits both countries. I suppose you can consider this a tangent of the common "Unity is better for Skyrim and mankind" argument.

[Lachdonin]

1. Stormcloaks are xenophobic and obviously dislike elves.
2. Any Dunmer with a sense of kinship for his people will disapprove of the ghetto the Dark Elves have been given.
3. Any Dunmer that has a reasonably critical mind will consider the Stormcloaks a bad bet, considering that at the beginning of the game the rebellion had nearly ended before it could really take off.
4. Any Dunmer that might be more interested in the welfare of Skyrim as a whole, should realize that the trade between Skyrim and the Empire benefits both countries. I suppose you can consider this a tangent of the common "Unity is better for Skyrim and mankind" argument.

5: The Dunmer (and the Chimer before them) have a very, very long history of conflict with the Nords
6: Altruism and freedom aren't really strongpoints of the Dunmer persona
7: They don't give a rats ass about Talos (in fact, culturally they kinda hated him)

All of that said, i will point out again the Sarethi sisters. They are about as kind and gentle as you get in Skyrim, and guess what race they are?

[SFBryan18]

You know, the topic doesn't ask which side a Dark Elf would most likely join... I think that is obvious. It actually asks why any Dark Elf would join the rebellion. There is a difference between the two. This topic is mainly between the Dark Elves and the Stormcloaks, and I think it's reasonable to say that one would join because they want things to change. Maybe in general, the Dark Elves normally hate Nords and Ulfric, but an individual Dark Elf might hate the Empire and the Thalmor even more. Helping the Nords could bring an era of peace between the two cultures. Just because things have been messed up in the past, doesn't mean they can't change in the future. Just look at the history of culture in America. Things can always change, but if they chose to continue to be bitter and resentful, there probably will always be hostility between the two cultures.

Let's put it this way...

We don't really know who is going to win the war. Saying who should win is just opinion, but the real end is not determined. So, lets say the Stormcloaks do win... If the Dark Elves decided to back the Empire, they probably won't be welcome in Skyrim. Of course, the same can be said if the opposite... If the Dark Elves back Ulfric, the Empire won't be too happy. The real difference is who is going to help them drive the Argonians out of Morrowind? Has the Empire done anything for them so far and will they ever, or are they too concerned with the Thalmor to care?

I think an alliance between the free Nords of Skyrim and the Dark Elves of Morrowind would be the best thing that both sides could do. The Dark Elves could help Skyrim fight the Thalmor, and the Stormcloaks could help the Dark Elves drive the Argonians out of Morrowind. That is, if they can just get over their personal hatred for each other first. If Ulfric was wise, he might consider forming this type of alliance, but the question is, do the Dark Elves even have a leader to ally with or is their government completely wiped out? Even without a leader, Ulfric could still attempt to rally the Dark Elves by finding them a leader and helping them create their own rebellion. If the Dragonborn helps Ulfric drive the Empire out of Skyrim, perhaps Ulfric can send a garrison of troops led by the Dragonborn into Morrowind to unite the Dark Elves with the Stormcloaks. Anything is possible.

[Lachdonin]

You know, the topic doesn't ask which side a Dark Elf would most likely join... I think that is obvious. It actually asks why any Dark Elf would join the rebellion. There is a difference between the two.

And some of us have been pointing out the problems in comming up with a justification. It's something of a thought experement, laying ouf the personal of a culture and then hoping enlightenment will come from having as many people as possible examing the problems in search of a solution.

I think an alliance between the free Nords of Skyrim and the Dark Elves of Morrowind would be the best thing that both sides could do. The Dark Elves could help Skyrim fight the Thalmor, and the Stormcloaks could help the Dark Elves drive the Argonians out of Morrowind. That is, if they can just get over their personal hatred for each other first. If Ulfric was wise, he might consider forming this type of alliance, but the question is, do the Dark Elves even have a leader to ally with or is their government completely wiped out?

First, we know every little about what Morrowind is like now. Aduri implies that Mournhold still stands, and in Lord of Souls we're told the Great Houses still exist (Lord of Souls taking place 20 odd years after the Red year), which means Dunmer culture is still probably intact. Of course, they don't have the Tribunal or the Nerevarine anymore, but theres no indication that the Imperial intituted Kingship in Mournhold has ended, particularly since Morrowind is still an Imperial province.

Second, in order for the Dunmer and Nords to work together, they'd have to set asside thousands of years of hostility and outright warfare. Some Nords can;t even put off preaching about a God they've only had for a few centuries, do you really think they could set asside a hatred that's been engrained in their culture since its beginning?

Edited by Lachdonin, 23 September 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[SFBryan18]

First, we know every little about what Morrowind is like now. Aduri implies that Mournhold still stands, and in Lord of Souls we're told the Great Houses still exist (Lord of Souls taking place 20 odd years after the Red year), which means Dunmer culture is still probably intact. Of course, they don't have the Tribunal or the Nerevarine anymore, but theres no indication that the Imperial intituted Kingship in Mournhold has ended, particularly since Morrowind is still an Imperial province.

Second, in order for the Dunmer and Nords to work together, they'd have to set asside thousands of years of hostility and outright warfare. Some Nords can;t even put off preaching about a God they've only had for a few centuries, do you really think they could set asside a hatred that's been engrained in their culture since its beginning?

"The enemy of my enemy, is my friend."

Throughout history, many nations who were bitter rivals, set aside their differences to fight a bigger threat. Just look at WW1 and WW2.

Smart people know what's best for them, and the Empire hasn't really helped Morrowind enough, and with a future war coming against the Thalmor, it doesn't look like anything is going to change soon. Ulfric can offer the Dark Elves a solution that won't rely on the results of a war that hasn't even been fought yet. And there's no guarantee that the Empire will help them even if they do defeat the Thalmor.

If Ulfric is smart, he'd make the alliance happen which would result in the Dark Elves also rebelling against the Empire. The Empire is having a hard enough time defeating Skyrim, so adding another rebellion would surely turn the tides. People say that the Thalmor are trying to divide and conquer, well then it would be smart to ally the rebellion with the neighbors who have similar goals... freedom. From the Dark Elf point of view, the Empire is what got them to where they are, so why should they continue to support them?

A Skyrim-Morrowind Alliance would give both Nords and Dark Elves a chance for freedom. Cyrodil can crumble. Faithless Imperials had their chance to rule, and they failed.

So, will it happen? Who knows? The point is, this enough justification for a Dark Elf to join Ulfric. If that Dark Elf was also the Dragonborn, this would also make it much easier to form such an alliance.

[Lachdonin]

We shall agree to dissagree then, since those reasons ring rather hollow in my ears. Particularly the 'the empire hasn't done enough to help Morrowind' since we know absolutely nothing about what was or was not commited to rebuilding Morrowind. And the 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' since there are just as many, if not more examples to the contrary.

But that is neither here, nor there, and to be frank, i'm tired of arguing the same points without having them addressed.

Edited by Lachdonin, 23 September 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[SFBryan18]

Well, if there is a specific point that you feel needs addressing, then keep your posts short and sweet. You have to understand that the more point you make, the less likely they will all be answered, but I think I did a fairly good job at simply providing one opinion as to why a dark elf might join the Stormcloaks.

[Lachdonin]

Admitedly, yes. Even if i find it streatched and somewhat forced, it is indeed a valid justification, and on those grounds i can't argue against it. I amy think it's as likely as an Orc deciding the Thalmor are all that an a new pair of shoes, but that is irrelivent to the point.

[fraquar]

I think it's a mistake to put every single individual of a race into the same behavioral melting pot (i.e. they are hardwired to act and behave like everyone else of their race no questions asked).

For all we know the Dunmer in question is simply an outcast?, or maybe he was persecuted by his own kind? or maybe a loose cannon who doesn't agree with his own races traditions or direction? Hmmmm.....

On it's face if all we do is completely ignore everything else and say that said Dunmer:
HAS to look like a Dunmer
HAS to act like all other Dunmer
HAS to be completely robotic in behavior

Then no, he wouldn't join the Stomrcloaks. Thats pretty close-minded thinking though for a fantasy game, don't you think?

Added: For all we know, maybe his mom was a Skooma addict and her offspring wasn't quite wired the same as everyone else?

Edited by fraquar, 23 September 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[RighthandofSithis]

Perhaps if said Dunmer were to join the Companions, and effectively proved to be a Nord at heart. As such, he/she acquires an attachment to Skyrim and her people, and becomes a Stormcloak for the sames reasons any Nord would.