40 replies to this topic

[LobselVith66]

Well the bad thing I guess in every faction is that they are ancilliary to the main quest you have as dragonborn. The DB one you should end up dead if you really want to please Sithis!

Why should Sithis want the protagonist dead? Lucien Lachance even says at one point that he feels a disturbance in the Void, because Sithis doesn't want Cicero to be killed. The Night Mother chose the protagonist to become the new Listener, to send souls to the Void and become the savior of the Dark Brotherhood. If the Dragonborn dies, then who will send souls to the Dread Father?

This is a great game but I am surprised that no one (unless this is going to be released as an add on or a separate game) has developed a critical path whereby you as DB can become the new Talos or equivalent (smelling of dog or not). The old High king was weak by all accounts and nothing more than a puppet for the defeated Imperials.

Hasn't that been done already, since the Champion of Cyrodiil achieves apotheosis by becoming a Daedric Prince?

Ulfric is a bigot and an opportunist power grabber (he is a Jarl).

While that criticism is made against Ulfric by his detractors, we never actually hear him say anything that would indicate it's accurate. When we initially enter Windhelm, we hear two belligerent Nords blame the Dunmer for not joining the Stormcloaks, so it's not as though non-Nords are excluded from entering the group. Even Jarl Igmund of the Reach contradicts the claims made in the Bear of Markarth that slanders Ulfric quite a bit. I don't think Ulfric or Tullius are bigots; I applaud that the narrative provides us with two well-meaning, but flawed, leaders.

[RedRavyn]

LobselVith66, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of Ulfric. He's Jarl of Windhelm. In which city do we see the most rampant racism going on? You guessed it. Windhelm. Ultimately, the Jarl must be held responsible for the treatment of the Dunmer, and even the Argonians. And, keep in mind, that Khajiit (unless the one in question is the Dovahkiin) are not welcome within the city walls at all. Ulfric could simply, by decree, declare that Dunmer are no longer restricted to living in the Gray District. He could insure, merely by decree, that Argonians would get due pay for the work they do. He could decide that Khajiit are welcome in Winterhold, and it would happen. He has not. To me actions (or lack thereof) speak very loudly.

Now, to the issue at hand. I think Kurosu93 hit the nail right on the head, even if his post was a bit difficult to decipher. I've complained about this before, both in Oblivion and Skyrim venues. I've never played Morrowind, so I don't know if this is a continuation of a practice that was in that game, too. The problem? In a short time someone who is a virtual unknown takes over leadership of an entire faction. If this isn't intended for twelve year old kids with delusions of grandeur, I don't know what is. Once, just for the hell of it, I completed the entire College of Winterhold questline and I only cast two novice-level spells the entire time. I used stealth, archery, backstabbing, and poisons to do the rest. They still made me Archmage.

I think the entire paradigm is wrong, and its unlikely Bethesda will change it for the next game. The primary quests will all be the same.

• Join faction
• Leader of faction dies (or you kill him)
• Become leader of faction

That recipe is getting terribly boring to me after two ES games. The only one where it didn't happen was with the Bards College, and I'll bet that the only reason we don't get to become guildmaster, there, was because the game was rushed to an artificial, entirely arbitrary (however dramatic) release date, and the people working on the Bards College questline didn't have time to finish it. At least they ended that one right, even if for the wrong reason.

I don't even want to become second in command. I join as a peon, so let me work as a peon. There's no way I should be able to rise up through the ranks in a few days, bypassing people who have been there for years. To me, as a veteran roleplayer, this is not a satisfying way to play a game. I want to work for what I get, and I want to do it in a reasonable (read that, realistic) way. I'm OK with getting involved in complex, far-reaching quests, and even be the hero from time to time, but I have a long way to go before I'm in Kodlak's or Tolfdir's league (and, really, Tolfdir should have been Archmage and Vilkas probably should have been Harbinger).

[Cobwebmaster]

@LobselVith66. Sorry can't seem to use quote facility so I'll copy/paste to effect I hope!

Why should Sithis want the protagonist dead? Lucien Lachance even says at one point that he feels a disturbance in the Void, because Sithis doesn't want Cicero to be killed. The Night Mother chose the protagonist to become the new Listener, to send souls to the Void and become the savior of the Dark Brotherhood. If the Dragonborn dies, then who will send souls to the Dread Father?

I did play the DB quest in Oblivion but I formed the distinct impression that death by assassination of a more skilled exponent of the art was pleasing to Sithis - hence the respect and accolade given by Athis? in Skyrim on her demise at the hands of the PC


Hasn't that been done already, since the Champion of Cyrodiil achieves apotheosis by becoming a Daedric Prince?

That wasn't my impression. The defeat of Mehrunes Dagon at the hands of the Champion of Cyrodiil was via the self sacrifice of Martin Septim in summoning Akatosh. Whilst the existence of Mehrunes Dagon was indeed removed from Cyrodiil and Tamriel the 16 realms of Oblivion remained intact and no new immortal or realm was created as far as I am aware in game. Having said that, I have noticed that rather cleverly a number of misleading, incomplete, or simply inaccurate historical tomes have been left scattered about in the Skyrim game for the PC to come across and read, so I guess creating a certain amount of unavoidable conjecture, and of course controversy

While that criticism is made against Ulfric by his detractors, we never actually hear him say anything that would indicate it's accurate. When we initially enter Windhelm, we hear two belligerent Nords blame the Dunmer for not joining the Stormcloaks, so it's not as though non-Nords are excluded from entering the group. Even Jarl Igmund of the Reach contradicts the claims made in the Bear of Markarth that slanders Ulfric quite a bit. I don't think Ulfric or Tullius are bigots; I applaud that the narrative provides us with two well-meaning, but flawed, leaders.

I agree that both are flawed but political chicanery has put the Imperials in the role of perceivable toadies and lickspittles to the Altmeri and the presence of so much bigotry, prejudice, and persecution unchecked in Jarl Ulfric's satrapy itself is indicative of his policies. There are many comments by NPCs which reinforce that stance and while on the surface Ulfric's cause is worthy of support for independence of Skyrim he undermines it by his active social policies in his own fiefdom. The future he offers is not an independent positive society, with justice for all but an insular one which reinforces and abuses the Nords superiority complexes- Man cannot live by armastery alone! These policies do not extend generally to the neutral Jarl of Whiterun, who has a muich more focused view of thelarger issues, nor to declared Imperial supporters who are generally dependent on the Imperials to maintain their political positions . I suppose it depends on who you you escape Helgen with as how biased to one side or the other you become initially. Ulfric's cause is a worthy one on the surface and takes full advantage of the rift created by the surrender of the Cyrodiil Imperials. Likewise long term residents of Skyrim (for example Alvor the Blacksmith in Riverwood) bring Ulfric's political campaign into perspective during their interaction with the pc - I smell a parallel here with the rise of National Socialism in Germany during the early 1930s. The downside to Tullius is that he is the head of a defeated army which offers no hope of expelling the Altmeri the real cause of Skyrim's problems. With Hammerfell successfully resisting the Altmers another battle on the Skyrim front can only weaken them. In my view if the game is about the future of skyrim and the restoration of it's traditions and religion then there is no choice but to align with the rebel cause but Ulfric must not be ultimately left in charge and he is not THE DRAGONBORN.

[trukittn]

I don't really understand all the hate for Ulfric I see. Sure, a lot of his enemies try to paint him as a racist, but if you actually bother to hang around him, there's no evidence at all of it. As a khajiit werewolf with the soul of a dragon joining the Stormcloaks, I saw more prejudice from Galmar than anyone else. In fact, being the skilled eavesdropper that I am, I dare argue that Tullius harbors more prejudice against "These Nords" and their traditions than Ulfric does of, well, anyone. Indifferent to the 'plight of the dark elves', certainly, but that doesn't make him racist. He seems guilty only of a tunnel-visioned drive to null the bill of sale that the Empire wrote to the Dominion. He might not be helping the dark elves out of their slum, but he also did not put them there. None of his conversations (directed at me or anyone else) even hint at racism. Galmar on the other hand...

Also, non-dovahkiin Khajiit aren't allowed in -any- city. This isn't something particular to Windhelm. I sorta wished my khajiit had to deal with and overcome that level of prejudice, just to add more depth to the whole thing.

As for the guild factions in skyrim. Now on my 3rd playthrough and still can't bring myself to join and finish the DB quest line. For some reason, its a lot harder to justify the things they're doing in this game than it was in Oblivion. Feels like I'd have to make a real scallywag type of character to do those with and well, I just don't care for that sorta thing. In Oblivion the DB marks always 'deserved it', and while I'd love to put an arrow through the groin of the Emperor that sold Skyrim to the Dominion, It's the marks leading up to that that my characters would never agree to. Especially with the first 'test'. The only one in that room that deserved to die was Astrid.

I really didn't care for the TG line either. I was 'tricked' into joining it by the main questline, and got sidetracked by it, and really hated half the crap I had to do. From the start it felt more like a guild of thugs than a den of thieves. Where was the challenge of testing my stealth or the robin hood sort of feel Oblivion offered? So, I got the achievements for finishing the questline, then loaded an earlier save and have ignored Brynjolf selling his elixers ever since. A pity that. He has one of the sexiest voices in the game.

The mages guild was a total let down. Again 'tricked' into joining via the main quest. (I should mention that this is a huge peeve of mine in Skyrim, the worst even.) You're really not offered a choice, unless you've read ahead on a guide someplace or have incredible luck to be exploring the northern ocean while that part of the MQ is open. That I was able to join, complete and become arch mage with a stealth and archer character who hadn't put a single perk or level bonus into magey things is sorta pathetic. The Leader of the College of Mages with 100 Magicka to her name? Wtfins. Again I ended up reloading an earlier save because it just made no sense. It also makes me hesitant to bother with a mage character playthrough since the guild quests for it is so lackluster.

Which leaves the Companions. The only guild faction I really like in Skyrim. The only complaint for them I have is that the quest line is far too short. I think it should have required a few more radiant quests in between the main bits. Still, you actually feel like you made a difference to them. Especially if you read Kodlak's journal. I felt a stronger sense of brotherhood and diversity in members of the Companions, not to mention their snazzy connection to Ysgramor. Also, unlike the other guilds, the other members of the Companions do actually go out and hunt together. I've caught them several times out slaughtering trolls or bears without me, miles and miles away from Jorrvaskr.

[Cobwebmaster]

I think there are bad sides to all the faction quests in TESV and that they tend to outweigh the good (if there are that many) with one exception. How do I get to this judgement? Well by drawing a comparison with TESIV guilds where they seem to have so much more immersion and depth. I tend to agree for a warrior the companions quest does have a much better fit than the others. Shame about the marriageable Aela wanting to retain her furry option. I bet she bites! As regards the thief guild I also was put off by starting off the thing by fitting up another trader. I agree that the guild itself appear to be no more than a bunch of thugs with extortion and blackmail their main source of income at the point of entry. As an NPC states during the game at least the DB have standards. Running a brothel, a string of cutpurses, and the occasional heist would put the guild more in line with the BG concept of TG which I am more relaxed with. Having said that there is an option to rather than "fit up" the guy in the market in Riften you can drop the ring. You still get in to the thieves guild, and the quest line does get more conventional. The big problem I have with the TG quest is that it doesn't give me the option to frame or otherwise debilitate Maeven Black Briar who is major competition. That woman gets right up my nose!

Raymond Feist in his fantasy novels has the most accomplished thief becoming a duke and a member of the royal household. Somehow in Skyrim the thieves guild has lost all the influence they should have acquired which would put them on or immediately behind the throne of a Jarl. Maeven Blackbriar stands in the way of that so in that sense I think the TG quest line doesn't go far enough and needs to expand and perform it's civic duty by eliminating/recruiting/ organising the bandits that occupy some castles. Major source of road tax income there! On the subject of Winterhold and the mages guild I am also surprised than no Archmage takes on the job of disciplining the necromancers that have set themselves up in various castles and abodes around skyrim. Also destroying most of the hold they are based in doesn't do a lot for their p/r. There is a major task to re engender trust between Magic wielders (in Winterhold College) and Nords/ Skyrim citizens which the quest does not try to tackle. In that sense it is rather shallow, and maybe a tad too much consideration has been given to the Nords superstitious attitude to magic

[kryptopyr]

I don't mind that you can become head of the faction, although I think becoming head of all the factions seems rather unrealistic. I wish you had to choose between them (I never played Morrowind, but I'm told it was a bit like this) or that you had to display the appropriate skills to become leader (high magic skill level for Mages, high sneak skills for Thieves, etc). But what I probably dislike most is that once you become leader, the quest is over and there is nothing (or at least very little) to do. I'd love to actually be given the chance to lead... to make decisions that will affect the guild and have at least a few more quests after becoming leader. The game pushes you to the top of the faction; then, once there, it feels like you're just suppose to say "okay, I'm finished here, now on to the next quest/faction."

[LobselVith66]

LobselVith66, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of Ulfric. He's Jarl of Windhelm. In which city do we see the most rampant racism going on? You guessed it. Windhelm. Ultimately, the Jarl must be held responsible for the treatment of the Dunmer, and even the Argonians.

Following that line of reasoning, you could condemn every Jarl across the land. Racism exists all over Skyrim, as it exists throughout Tamriel. The Reachmen deal with racism in Markarth, and throughout the Reach. They have for centuries. We hear racist remarks about the fact that Argonians are allowed into Solitude now, from Ahtar. We hear how Madesi sleeps in Beggar's Row because of the racism in Riften.

As for the dichotomy between Nords and elves, Nords have traditionally had issues with elves - who they have battled against for centuries. Even if Windhelm falls under Legion control, the Argonian situation doesn't change, even under a new Jarl. The Gray Quarter doesn't change, either.

In fact, Ulfric never seems to have an issue with the protagonist if he (or she) is elven. As trukittn pointed out earlier, it's actually Galmar who comments on the protagonist being elven, as well as providing the view that Skyrim is a land for men. However, he never really seems to have an issue with the protagonist arguing that Skyrim is a home for people other than Nords, when you explain why you want to fight for the Stormcloaks.

And, keep in mind, that Khajiit (unless the one in question is the Dovahkiin) are not welcome within the city walls at all.

The Khajiit caravans are banned from entering every single city in Skyrim - both Legion and Stormcloak controlled. The Khajiit address the reluctance of the Nords to trust them.

Ulfric could simply, by decree, declare that Dunmer are no longer restricted to living in the Gray District. He could insure, merely by decree, that Argonians would get due pay for the work they do. He could decide that Khajiit are welcome in Winterhold, and it would happen. He has not. To me actions (or lack thereof) speak very loudly.

The Dunmer have been living in the Gray Quarter since Red Mountain erupted, when it was originally called the Snow Quarter. The Dunmer seem to have issue with the living conditions of the Gray Quarter, rather than residing in that section of the city. The fact is that resources are devoted to other pressing issues, regardless of whether Windhelm is under Stormcloak or Legion control.

I don't even want to become second in command. I join as a peon, so let me work as a peon. There's no way I should be able to rise up through the ranks in a few days, bypassing people who have been there for years. To me, as a veteran roleplayer, this is not a satisfying way to play a game. I want to work for what I get, and I want to do it in a reasonable (read that, realistic) way. I'm OK with getting involved in complex, far-reaching quests, and even be the hero from time to time, but I have a long way to go before I'm in Kodlak's or Tolfdir's league (and, really, Tolfdir should have been Archmage and Vilkas probably should have been Harbinger).

You could become the leader of factions in Morrowind as well (although the Thieves Guild and the Fighters Guild actually conflicted with each other).

[RedRavyn]

@ trukittn: There's a very wise saying that goes a bit like this -- "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist." No, none of Ulfric's dialog hints of the racism we've been discussing. On the other hand, do you really think that the Bethesda developers are foresighted enough to include any dialog that doesn't directly relate to Ulfric's questline? Of course not.

Why aren't Khajiit welcome in any city? It's because of racism, pure and simple, and this applies to all the Jarls. Nowhere in the lore of ES is there any indication that there's some sort of official decree that covers all of Skyrim that prohibits Khajiit from entering cities, and, yes, what I said in the above paragraph applies here, too. All I can go on is what I've seen in the game, itself, and what I see is a Jarl (and we're talking specifically about Ulfric, here, so that's why we're hitting on him) who permits racist actions in his city. The city is his responsibility, and has been for as long as he's been Jarl. He can't be blind to the racism. He's done nothing at all to curb it. Ergo, he must be in agreement with it. Therefore, he must be racist.

Sure, the Dovahkiin is welcome anywhere, even if he's a Khajiit. If he weren't, then the game couldn't be played as a Khajiit, and Bethesda is too damned lazy to set up a Khajiit-specific questline to garner the favor the Jarls. Besides, there would be consequences to that. "You allow ME into your cities, and you think I'm a Good Person. Are you telling me that you're not wrong in your belief that all other Khajiit are criminals and vagabonds?" That would be just too much for the poor Bethesda writers to contend with. They have a hard enough time writing barely passable storylines as it is.

Dark Brotherhood -- Yes, it's a bit problematic for role-players, as opposed to the cookie-cutter hack&slash players for which this game was designed. If you dig a little bit, most of the hits are justifiable. Most of them. I have to play in a completely different mindset to do the DB questline in Skyrim -- no qualms about it in Oblivion. And, you're right. The only person in the Abandoned Shack who deserved to die was Astrid. So why didn't you kill her?

Thieves Guild -- I like Brynjolf. I'm a guy, and I think he has a sexy voice, but I played as a female on the times I did the TG questline, and my attitudes change when I play as a male. I agree, too. The Skyrim TG is just a bunch of thugs. I loved the TG concept in Oblivion. I detest what Bethesda did to it in Skyrim. I think it was a dirty trick that Bethesda played on us by railroading us into the Thieves Guild. They're very good at entangling their primary questlines to force you to do all of them. This wasn't the case in Oblivion, and I really hope they take enough heat for this strong-arm BS that they don't do it in the next game. Not all of us want to do every quest in the game on every playthough, and we don't want our journals filled with entries we can't clear.

@ Cobwebmaster: Why should the Archmage take up a vendetta against the necromancers in Skyrim? Necromancy isn't illegal in Skyrim, and the College of Winterhold has a much more open attitude regarding the practice of magic than the Mages Guild ever did in Oblivion, as well as it's offshoots here in the future.

@ LobselVith66: I DO condemn every Jarl across Skyrim for the open practice of racist policies. It's just that we were talking about Ulfric, and not about all the others. Note that the only truly ubiquitous aspect of this is prejudice against the Khajiit. I play as a Khajiit most of the time, so I feel quite strongly about this. As I pointed out, above, the Dovahkiin MUST be allowed everywhere for the game to be playable as a Khajiit. This is why people are accepting of him. It's a game-play issue and has nothing to do with the logical fact that I shouldn't be able to march my furry butt into any city I want any time I want.

Saying that the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter don't blame racism on the decrepit state of their part of the city is like saying that American blacks (am I detecting a parallel, here?) don't consider racism at the root of the condition of the slums in which they live. I think American history has proven that it is. I really don't see any difference in Skyrim. Bethesda couldn't make this analogy too obvious, though, so I wouldn't expect them to talk about it in those terms within the game.

[trukittn]

.. Well by drawing a comparison with TESIV guilds where they seem to have so much more immersion and depth.

Yeah. I think all of the guild factions in Skyrim are rather ho-hum compared to the same factions in Oblivion. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't generally enjoy playing bad guys, and the only way I could have gotten every single thing done in Oblivion (and I did) was if I could justify it somehow for the character I was playing. It was because of the depth that I could do that. A robin-hood type could fit in TESIV TG. A vigilante/CIA type could fit in the TESIV DB. And a non mage would find it quite a bit more difficult to make their way through the Mage's Guild in Oblivion. Also, the guilds weren't thrust on you via the main quest. That the main quest in leads you straight to the thief's guild in particular is a drag. I fondly remember part of the fun of the TG in Oblivion was finding out how to join.

Maven makes me wish we still had the poisoned apple trick. >:C

@ trukittn: There's a very wise saying that goes a bit like this -- "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

Well, you can't prove something doesn't exist, so I'm never gonna win my argument. But I maintain that his responses aren't along the lines of a racist when the subject of other races are brought up to him. They are along the lines of a leader who has his cause and the safety of his land at the forefront of his thoughts.

And I wonder if the "sins of the father" are being blamed on the son here. Wish there was more info on Ulfric's daddy. It's impossible that Ulfric himself is responsible for the current state of the Dunmer nation in Windhelm, at least as far as I can figure. Maybe I'm makin stuff up, but seems to me Ulfric's been in war just about all his life. As a soldier, then a prisoner and now a Jarl trying to reclaim what the Empire sold. He hasn't had time to make sure the Dunmer's feelin's aren't hurt too bad in the city he inherited just yet. "Perhaps someone should inform them that I have bigger things to worry about right now, like all of Skyrim." Or something like that was his response when notified about the unrest in the Gray Quarter. I think the hate the general populace feels towards the dark elves in Windhelm is less based on their race and more based on the fact that they keep claiming it ain't their fight to fight, even though they live there.

Fact is, the guards do patrol the gray quarter, in spite of what the elves say. And from what I gather from his response to Jorleif, Ulfric does keep an eye on things down there in case stuff gets out of hand. Granted, this is all coming from someone who joins the Stormcloaks in every single playthrough so I am admittedly biased in their favor, but I just don't think the sort of fanatical hate I sometimes see for Ulfric is justified by his actual behavior in the game.

And, you're right. The only person in the Abandoned Shack who deserved to die was Astrid. So why didn't you kill her?

I did! I do! Every time! I just can't seem to help myself. I'll think, "Will this be the playthrough I actually join these guys in?" - but by the time the thought is finished, I've already clobbered her. Oops. Too bad they don't let you in anyway. They should! With much rejoicing, even! I don't usually finish the destroy the DB quest that pops up after that, though, because the guy you have to report to just makes me want to punch him in the face for some reason.

Thieves Guild -- I like Brynjolf. I'm a guy, and I think he has a sexy voice, but I played as a female on the times I did the TG questline, and my attitudes change when I play as a male. I agree, too. The Skyrim TG is just a bunch of thugs. I loved the TG concept in Oblivion. I detest what Bethesda did to it in Skyrim. I think it was a dirty trick that Bethesda played on us by railroading us into the Thieves Guild. They're very good at entangling their primary questlines to force you to do all of them. This wasn't the case in Oblivion, and I really hope they take enough heat for this strong-arm BS that they don't do it in the next game. Not all of us want to do every quest in the game on every playthough, and we don't want our journals filled with entries we can't clear.

Seriously. I don't want to do anything that doesn't fit my character. But I have this obnoxious desire to finish everything I start, so it just drives me bananas with quests that I can't fail on purpose or "complete" by saying no or something when it comes to things I know my character wouldn't do. Also, do wish Brynjolf would stop telling me how glad he is that I came to my senses and decided to do his bidding. Walking within a few feet of him does not mean this! Maybe I just want to buy some Falmer blood! >:O

[Rooker75]

Not all of us want to do every quest in the game on every playthough, and we don't want our journals filled with entries we can't clear.

A quick "Disable" command in the console fixes this problem for me. If I'm not planning to do the Thieves questline, I disable Maul and Brynjolf in Riften. I did the Forsworn quest in Markarth once and have no desire to ever do it again, so I disable the Eltrys guy who hands you the note the game won't let you get rid of, as well as the Vigilant of Stendarr outside the abandoned house who also starts a quest I have no interest in doing.

But yeah, it'd be nice if they would let us clear unwanted journal entries or turn down unwanted quests.