Skyrim Main Quest Overhaul [WIP]

[alinahalo]

Love the idea. Skyrim lacks a deep storyline and even more lacks choices in that storyline.

The idea of an emissary to Falkreath is really fascinating. I always asked myself at that point "y don't they just send a message?". Let me share some suggestions i have:

I'd place it behind "death of a taxman" for some more logic.

The first step would be sth like: Go to Falkreath and tell the jarl we don't wanna attack. Drop some supplies for our troops in Riverwood on the way.

Arriving in Riverwood the player learns about the nearby Stromcloak camp (there was one when i remember right) and an shortly reinforced Falkreath outpost, with nervous troops shooting everyone getting close. The stormcloaks were trying to get an advantage of this situation and offered their help, incase the Whiterun joins Ulfric. It is to suspect that they offered the same deal to Falkreath. That moment a scout returns, telling the the empires troops just left Falkreath heading west.

At this point u have to make a decision, influencing the outcome of the quest:

A: Return to Whiterun and tell the jarl about the situation. -> This will result in the stromcloaks attacking both sides and a shortly following dragon attack killing everyone who was left standing.

 

B: Try to talk to the troops at the Falkreath outpost. -> Approching the troops will lead to be greeted by "Hey rn't u the guy we send to execution to Helgen?" -> They'll attack and hunt the player back to Riverwood, at some point drawing the whiterun troops there to try to protect the player. After the extinction of his troops the jarl of Falkreath will accept the stromcloaks offer.

 

C: Convince the Whiterun troops to engage the stormcloak camp. -> at the camp u see that the falkreath troops just had the same idea, but they r loosing. Happy ever after outcome, but just when at least one soldier of both sides (whiterun/Falkreath) survives the battle + noone is injured/killed by friendly fire from the player, this should be made pretty hard, cause this shouldn't be seen as the best decision.

 

D: Sneak past the Falkreath outpost to talk to the Falkreath jarl directly -> He won't trust you, as he isn't sure if you are a wanted criminal, but with enough speechskill he can be convinced to draw back his troops. You are asked to deliver this order (and optional return to Falkreath with the troops.) Not sure yet, many options here like stormcloak ambush -> jarl trusts u after u helped fending them off. Or the orders could be orders to execute the deliverer. (even more funny if the player has the option to read the letter on his way)

 

E: Convince the Whiterun troops to move back to whiterun and return with them to explain their actions. They won't go if u don't come with them, cause this action could be seen as refusing to follow a direct order. -> on half they way some dragons attack, arriving in Whiterun, u learn that Riverwood has been whiped out by a dragonattack, and so was the Falkreath outpost, Falkreath blames Whiterun to secretly siding with the stormcloaks. -> follow-quest: Go to Solitude and ask General Tullius to interfere.

 

F: Lying to the Riverwood troops and secretly visiting the stromcloaks. They will tell u that they don't think one of the sides will join them willingly, so their main goal is to weaken both of them. As a test of u being worthy to join their ranks (would they honestly tell an unknown kahjit on the road: go to windhelm and join us :PP) it is your task to provoke the battle. (This is a last point of return, u can still share this information with both jarls -> leads to slightly modified C) turning them against each other should be simple, if u manage to convince the riverwood troops to attack the outpost their will be a bonusreward, cause Falkreath joins the stromcloaks afterwards.

=> in this quest all-in-all the more risky the decision the better the outcome, should be the other way round in a previous or later quest.

 

I'll better stop now, as i can't offer real help in implementing any of this (the one and only public mod i made needed several weeks until it was finally running as expected, and i still fear ppl coming up with massive bugs). I admit that my favorite storyline was the one of KotOR and i really miss having choices in skyrim (like telling the cannibal: i brought your home back, but i won't lead innocent ppl to their death, or peeing on molag bals shrine) okay theres always the choice between leaving an unfulfilled quest or acting against my characters nature, but this one sucks ;)

[Kyosuki]

there is this bug preventing me from gettingg to avrel its not lettin me walk through the entrance to the room hes in its like a pocket of air or somethin no matter how hard i run or try i cant seem to get in any solutions?

[behughes]

@alinahalo: That sounds like a pretty cool idea, but I think it might be a bit complicated for this stage in the story. I'd like to keep these quests fairly simple. After all, they are optional quests, designed to give the player a chance to explore some of the less-traveled areas around Whiterun, and to give the feeling that they have earned Jarl Balgruuf's trust by the time he asks you to get the dragonstone for Farengar.

 

That said, there may be a place for some of your ideas. I'm toying with an idea for the Falkreath Emissary quest to have an outcome in which the player can actually fail to convince the Jarl of Falkreath that Whiterun is still neutral, which would probably have some consequences. Maybe the Falkreath troops start trouble in Riverwood? I haven't worked out the details, but I will keep your suggestions in mind :D

 

@Kyosuki: Have you already killed the spider and freed Arvel? According to UESP, there is a bug similar to what you've described, which happens if you cut Arvel down from the webbing before talking to him. However, you can just reload from a previous save, and talk to him before you cut him down... that should fix it. Let me know if that helps :)

[fantasmeitor]

Cant wait to download this mod!

If you need help texturing or modelling in 3dmax I could lend you a hand, just let me know.

[TheCommonerPrince]

- Voice casting auditions are now commencing, more info shortly

 

- Designed a simple banner for the project until someone replaces it with something better

 

http://thecommonerprince.com/downloads/skyrim_main_quest_overhaul.png

Edited May 12, 2012 by TheCommonerPrince

[TheCommonerPrince]

- Casting call on the Voice Acting Alliance site has gone live.

 

- Casting call here on The Nexus is out.

 

- Personally working on samples for Galmar Stone-Fist for later down the road, it's looking good atm.

 

We are now actively seeking voice actors for the roles detailed in the link above. Anyone who can do a decent imitation of the voices described in the above link should PM me as soon as possible.

 

We have a chance to make history. Let's do it! :D

Edited May 14, 2012 by TheCommonerPrince

[TheCommonerPrince]

Preliminary Voice Acting test run for Galmar Stone-Fist

 

 

Listen to track here

 

Work remains to be done as regards breathing control, power, and achieving the right timbre, particularly for extended conversations. Will most likely be issuing an improved version addressing these issues. Still, it's a good start. This track is kind of a proof-of-concept of what we'd be looking for in characters. :) So if you think you can come up with a decent, good, or brilliant imitation for one of the characters we are casting for, don't hesitate to contact me. It does not have to be perfect, just good enough to mantain suspension of disbelief convincingly. If you feel there are issues which need to be worked over to improve your lines, then send them in and we might be able to work through it together. That's what I'm here for.

 

Other characters should be easier to emulate than Galmar.

 

Remember... if this mod is a success, your contributions are likely to be immortalized in the memory of the community along with those of the original voice actors. How killer would a successful imitation of a Skyrim main questline voice look in a VA resume, when this mod hits the thousands of downloads? I'd say its worth a try at least.

 

With that in mind, throw your lot in and join the project! If you don't get it right, keep trying until you get close then send in your work for review. At least that's what I try to do! :D

[ResolveThatChord]

Blah blah, too ambitous- No. This is a good idea, and I for one would love to see it happen.

 

To that end, first I want to offer encouragement, but also some hard advice: cut it back. I think it would benifit you enormously if you take a look at your design document, then consider what your initial goals were. Then cross out everything that does not contribute to that goal.

 

You've set yourself up for a monumental task, but your goal is (as far as I understand) to correct Skyrim's biggest problem, and a prevalent issue with every ES game: they don't make you care about the story. Is it really necessary to create 5 entire villages to address this problem?

 

Okay, now that's out of the way, Discussion:

 

Your idea of adding dialogue to the player to express his character's opinion: Gold. I think one of the main reasons that the player has little incentive to care about the story is that the player's character is so poorly defined. Only once in my entire time playing skyrim did an NPC ask my character a personal question. It was in the Silverblood mine, an NPC asks you whether you have any family. This was the first and only time that the game asks the player to consider who your character is, and what stake she/he has in the events of the story.

 

So I'd say the first piece of the problem is that the player is given nothing with which to relate to their own character.

 

You also metioned the problem of the player character's "meteoric rise to goodhood". I completely agree with this sentiment: all stories within the game, be it the main quest, faction quests, or side quests follow the same pattern: The Dovakiin is presented with obstacles, and surmounts every single one as soon as it is presented. That's not to say the game is easy- you may die many times attempting to win a fight. But as far as the story is concerned, those deaths don't count. The player is never given a sense that there are forces beyond their control, because every challenge is answered.

You sort of addressed this at one point by giving the Blades/Kill Paarthurnax choice real consequences, but for this to have real meaning I think the player must be forced. Otherwise there's the third option: do nothing.

 

So, to nail down second piece of the problem, I'd decibe it this way: In terms of narrative, the player is given no sense threat, or challenge, thus rendering their victories hollow.

 

If I may humbly offer an idea that may be a solution:

Create a random encounter where an unkillable Alduin attacks the player. The player will naturally try to fight, but will ultimately be forced to flee.

This does a few things: first, it punctures the player's sense of invincibility. Second, it makes the main quest personal: The player character's own survival is at stake. Third, it gives a real sense of accomplishment when the player finally gets to beat him, and finally, it reinforces the threat of the dragon menace as a real problem for Skyrim.

Also, it's heaps of fun trying to flee from a dragon. Unforunately, you lose this thrill at mid to high levels. This system could also be applied to other "boss" enemies, but I'd say it would work best with dragons.

 

Returning to the original problem, I think another aspect of it is the NPCs of Skyrim. I feel that the player is given little reason to care about them or their problems, and by extention, the main quest. The most obvious solution to this is to give them more dialogue, or give certain main characters more dialouge, but this requires a lot of work, and there may be a more elegant solution (not that I wouldn't love a Mass-Effect level of interaction with main characters). It could be that making the player relate the their own character would allow them to better relate to the NPCs. I'm not really sure about this one, but I think it's a central piece.

 

So the third piece of the problem: the player does not relate to other characters.

 

Finally, the fourth piece of the problem that I can think of is this: The player character is the only entity with any agency.

By this I mean that no-one in all of Skyrim aside from the Dovakiin takes any initiative, makes any effort to solve their own problems, or takes any action without first waiting for the player to arrive. The world only changes depending on the player's actions, and to the player is given the sense that nothing is outside their control. I think this problem is quite closely related to the previous two problems.

 

So! In summary:

 

To solve the issue of the stories within Skyrim having no weight, despite their own grandness:

• Make the player character relatable
  
• Give the player context to challenges
  
• Make the non-player characters relatable
  
• Give a sense of agency to other characters
  

 

Apologies for the wall of text, but I firmly believe that relevant discussion is healthy for mod development.

[behughes]

Blah blah, too ambitous- No. This is a good idea, and I for one would love to see it happen.

 

To that end, first I want to offer encouragement, but also some hard advice: cut it back. I think it would benifit you enormously if you take a look at your design document, then consider what your initial goals were. Then cross out everything that does not contribute to that goal.

 

You've set yourself up for a monumental task, but your goal is (as far as I understand) to correct Skyrim's biggest problem, and a prevalent issue with every ES game: they don't make you care about the story. Is it really necessary to create 5 entire villages to address this problem?

 

I really appreciate your candid input, both in terms of encouragement and hard advice. I agree that we need to make cuts; I'm actually in the process of making a revised design document as we speak. It will most likely completely eliminate the new villages and focuses instead on making small changes to the existing cities and villages as the story requires. Its a work-in-progress, but I agree completely that many of the initial ideas of this project are either not relavant to our main goal (a better story), are too much work and would require resources we don't have, or are in conflict with other popular mods (like our proposed dragon overhaul and the Deadly Dragons mod).

 

Okay, now that's out of the way, Discussion:

 

Your idea of adding dialogue to the player to express his character's opinion: Gold. I think one of the main reasons that the player has little incentive to care about the story is that the player's character is so poorly defined. Only once in my entire time playing skyrim did an NPC ask my character a personal question. It was in the Silverblood mine, an NPC asks you whether you have any family. This was the first and only time that the game asks the player to consider who your character is, and what stake she/he has in the events of the story.

 

So I'd say the first piece of the problem is that the player is given nothing with which to relate to their own character.

 

I'm glad you like the idea. The Elder Scrolls franchise has one of the most compelling fantasy universes I've experienced by far, especially in a game. However, when it comes to plot, character development, and dialogue, I've come to see games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age as the gold standard. Of course, ES games try to focus on immersion, leaving the personal details of your character to the imagination of the player. I think that is part of the appeal of the ES series. While I DID consider adding a bit of an "origins" quest-line to this mod, I decided that the specifics of the character's background should be left untouched, to leave that element of imagination intact.

 

However, I feel that the character really lacks any kind of voice. Its hard to engage your imagination and really immerse yourself in a world where nobody ever asks your opinion, or lets you have a say in what's going on. Todd Howard is a brilliant game designer, but its quite antithetical to the open-ended concept he espouses to have such a linear, black-and-white story-line, and I intend to correct this by giving the player a "voice."

 

You also metioned the problem of the player character's "meteoric rise to goodhood". I completely agree with this sentiment: all stories within the game, be it the main quest, faction quests, or side quests follow the same pattern: The Dovakiin is presented with obstacles, and surmounts every single one as soon as it is presented. That's not to say the game is easy- you may die many times attempting to win a fight. But as far as the story is concerned, those deaths don't count. The player is never given a sense that there are forces beyond their control, because every challenge is answered.

You sort of addressed this at one point by giving the Blades/Kill Paarthurnax choice real consequences, but for this to have real meaning I think the player must be forced. Otherwise there's the third option: do nothing.

 

So, to nail down second piece of the problem, I'd decibe it this way: In terms of narrative, the player is given no sense threat, or challenge, thus rendering their victories hollow.

 

If I may humbly offer an idea that may be a solution:

Create a random encounter where an unkillable Alduin attacks the player. The player will naturally try to fight, but will ultimately be forced to flee.

This does a few things: first, it punctures the player's sense of invincibility. Second, it makes the main quest personal: The player character's own survival is at stake. Third, it gives a real sense of accomplishment when the player finally gets to beat him, and finally, it reinforces the threat of the dragon menace as a real problem for Skyrim.

Also, it's heaps of fun trying to flee from a dragon. Unforunately, you lose this thrill at mid to high levels. This system could also be applied to other "boss" enemies, but I'd say it would work best with dragons.

 

Great points made here. I had hoped to resolve this somewhat with the series of dragon boss battles added to the Act II (currently under the quest entitled The Dragonborn Comes in the design document). Part of the idea here was to force the player to LOSE some battles. If the dragons really are a threat, we need to see it, to feel it. Whole towns would have to be destroyed - and others saved- and to bring it all home, those losses would be YOUR fault, they'd be permanent (unless you revert to an old save file), and they would have a lasting effect on the game.

 

Unfortunately, this is probably not going to happen as originally planned... I'm currently trimming this idea down and reworking it so that the battles can take place in or near the existing villages and cities. However, as it stands, my current plan is still to have some sort of "dragon war," in which the dragons engage each of the nine holds in some form or another. In some cases, you might lead an assault on a fortified dragon nest, in others cases you might be defending cities from dragon-lead hordes of draugr... its a WIP so I can't say for sure.

 

I hope to express the idea of consequence and loss in a slightly different way. I will probably build the victories and defeats into the story itself. Obviously, I can't destroy major cities like Windhelm or Markarth, because they are essential to the game in many ways. However, I can't say that the dragons won't try :devil:

 

As far as the Paarthurnax debacle goes, I agree with you.

 

Bethesda set this up to be a pretty straight-forward choice between the Blades and the Greybeards, but as it turns out, most people like Paarthurnax too much to kill him, hate Esbern for even considering asking you to, and don't really see the incentive. Losing of the Greybeards and their word-wall locations isn't really worth keeping the Blades and their dragon nest locations.

 

Personally, I want to have my cake and eat it too. I want to create a believable way for the player to spare Paarthurnax and remain in the good graces of the Blades. But I refuse to give the player something for nothing, and I agree that the choice should be forced. As it is, choosing to "do nothing" is pretty much a choice in favor of the Greybeards and Paarthurnax.

 

The best solution I've come up with is to have the Blades splinter into two groups, one dedicated to killing dragons and loyal to Esbern, and the other loyal to you and Delphine, who are more interested in stabilizing Skyrim politically and repelling the Thalmor threat. I think losing half your team is a fair trade for Paarthurnax's survival, and to force the issue, Esbern and his faction may have to be dealt with, for Paarthy's sake.

 

Returning to the original problem, I think another aspect of it is the NPCs of Skyrim. I feel that the player is given little reason to care about them or their problems, and by extention, the main quest. The most obvious solution to this is to give them more dialogue, or give certain main characters more dialouge, but this requires a lot of work, and there may be a more elegant solution (not that I wouldn't love a Mass-Effect level of interaction with main characters). It could be that making the player relate the their own character would allow them to better relate to the NPCs. I'm not really sure about this one, but I think it's a central piece.

 

So the third piece of the problem: the player does not relate to other characters.

 

Another good point. I think the first part of this is actually quite exactly what this mod intends to do - more dialogue. By analyzing the story from a 3-act cinematic perspective, I divided the main character's journey through the game into sections, which are dominated by which faction the player is actively involved with.

 

In Act 1, the player is essentially a nobody, just some guy/gal with crappy luck, who happens to witness a town getting destroyed by a dragon, and ends up working in the court of Jarl Balgruuf. I felt that this exposition was really rushed in the vanilla game, so this mod will be adding a lot of new dialogue to characters like Balgruuf, Farengar, Proventus, etc., as well as some new characters. You'll have a chance to do freelance work, join factions, and explore. You'll also feel some pull from the major players in the civil war, as well as the people of Skyrim, as you spend time exploring the world. Culminating in the revelation that dragons have truly returned and you are Dragonborn, this act ends when the player is sent to High Hrothgar.

 

Act 2 is all about the Blades, their intervention into your training, and their involvement in your quest to discover what it means to be Dragonborn. Thus, it is all about meeting your mentors, honing your skills, and developing relationships. This mod seeks to expand the Greybeard's training and flesh out your relationship to characters like Arngeir. At the same time, you will be working with the Blades, rebuilding the faction and uncovering the mystery behind the dragons' return, thus getting to know Esbern, Delphine, and an entirely new cast of Blades recruits (a la Mass Effect :biggrin: ). Through the Blades, you will also gain a renewed sense of the world outside the dragon crisis - the political conflicts, the stirrings within factions, and the machinations of the Thalmor.

 

Act 3 is about resolution, both personally and globally. If you haven't put an end to Skyrim's civil war, you will forced to join one side or another. Smooth talking the factions into cooperating will now be FAR harder to accomplish with this mod. This will include expanded roles for Hadvar, Ralof, Rikke, Galmar, Ulfric, Tullius, many other lesser characters who have a stake in the conflict. You'll also have to resolve the issues between the Blades and the Greybeards, as mentioned before. It's all about deciding where you stand, and gathering allies for the final fight against Alduin.

 

The aforementioned "dragon war" will be interspersed throughout the three acts, further punctuating the importance of your involvement. A divided Skyrim cannot stand against the dragon threat, and a divided Dragonborn has no chance of defeating Alduin, so your experience of the game through the added dialogue and characterizations will give you a greater sense of purpose.

 

Finally, the fourth piece of the problem that I can think of is this: The player character is the only entity with any agency.

By this I mean that no-one in all of Skyrim aside from the Dovakiin takes any initiative, makes any effort to solve their own problems, or takes any action without first waiting for the player to arrive. The world only changes depending on the player's actions, and to the player is given the sense that nothing is outside their control. I think this problem is quite closely related to the previous two problems.

 

I agree completely, and I believe this mod has the solution.

 

Remember how Farengar keeps saying "Come to Dragonsreach to discuss the ongoing hostilities, like the the rest of the great warriors?" During the first act, when the player is ingratiating his/her self within the court of Jarl Balgruuf, there will now be several new "warrior" characters added here. I don't want many details yet, but these characters will all be looking for a piece of the dragon-killing action and vying for the Jarl's favor.

 

Also, as I mentioned already, the new Blades recruits will now be major characters. Each will have a backstory and a reason for getting involved in the dragon crisis. Additionally, part of their role will be to gather information relavent to the dragon crisis. They will have their hands in nearly every cookie jar in Skyrim, as you might expect an undercover intelligence agency should. "Not really interested in the Mage's College, eh? Well, you might be interested to know that the Thalmor sent a Justicar to the college to investigate some ancient weapon or something. Better check it out..." That sorta thing.

 

... that's just a few examples.

 

So! In summary:

 

To solve the issue of the stories within Skyrim having no weight, despite their own grandness:

• Make the player character relatable
  
• Give the player context to challenges
  
• Make the non-player characters relatable
  
• Give a sense of agency to other characters
  

 

Apologies for the wall of text, but I firmly believe that relevant discussion is healthy for mod development.

 

Thanks again for all the input :) I welcome any discussion, because I really want to make as awesome a mod as possible. I hope to resolve all of the problems you pointed out here in some way.

 

On that note. I am still looking for other creative minds to assist me in the writing/development side of things. Even if you do not have any modding experience, you are welcome to join up in a more official capacity to help me with the writing process. While I do have my own vision for this project, the ideas of others have helped greatly, and will continue to shape this project in an invaluable way. PM me if you'd be interested :D

 

Otherwise, I'll see your wall o' text, and raise you a bigger wall o' text :hurr:

[mynamethatislong]

I just wanted to say that reading through all of this has made me excited for Skyrim all over again. I sincerely believe that if you pull this mod off, it may be remembered as the "canon" lore of Skyrim.