576 replies to this topic

[MacSuibhne]

Like others, I have to question whether Torygg was really the High King involved with Ulfric's arrest. At one point Ulfric says it was "the High King" who allowed the Dunmer into Skyrim, and some people make the mistake of thinking that he means Torygg because they don't connect that statement with the fact that the Dunmer became refugees more than 150 years before the time of the game. A similar mistake could have been made by whoever wrote that UESP article. I know of no canonical source that explicitly states that Torygg was High King at the time of the Markarth Incident.

Looking more deeply into this issue...it is ambiguous, we don't know for certain that Torygg was High King at the time of the Markarth incident.

But putting together the pieces...what there are of them and as twisted and distorted as they are from being forced into places where they don't fit...I'd have to say the chances are against Torygg being involved.

The Markarth Incident happened in 4E 176. Ulfric was arrested shortly thereafter, maybe the same year. It is 4E 201 when Torygg is thrown down. We are told that Torygg is a young man. What does that mean? I would guess not more than 25 or, stretching it, 30. I doubt that Torygg was High King at five.

Again, the whole thing is a picture puzzle. I've picked up this piece several times and tried to fit it into the larger picture--it doesn't fit where I thought it, did nor where I would like it to. But I'm not going to force it.

It doesn't diminish the fact that the Empire engineered the Markarth Incident and then betrayed Ulfric.

Hoo Hum. Another day...another capitulation, another betrayal.

Edited by MacSuibhne, 09 July 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

It doesn't diminish the fact that the Empire engineered the Markarth Incident and then betrayed Ulfric.

Except for they didn't.

The actions of on Jarl are not the actions of the entire Empire.

[fraquar]

If they are sanctioned by the Empire - they sure are. We don't see the Empire charging Ulfric with any crimes - which is what a responsible leadership would do if one of their subordinates gets out of line.

In fact, if they'd have done their duty maybe the High King would still be alive and there would be no Civil War. Then again, if they got what they wanted (access to the resources whatever the cost) the rest is just waiting to happen.

Edited by fraquar, 09 July 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Except we have no evidence that it was sanctioned by The Empire, all we know is that Igmund, by himself, said it was ok.

[Moraelin]

Except no one is being squeezed into a "ghetto". The quarter is land within the city walls set aside for the original Dunmer refugees, to be self-governed with no obligation to any Jarl in Skyrim. There is literally no room in the city for the Dunmer other than what was already set aside for them.

That is blatantly false for anyone who's played the game, as there IS one free house in that city, and, if you've done a certain quest, at least one more. Plus what is actually said in the game is that they're not ALLOWED, not that they couldn't find a house to rent.

So basically, again, your own postulates don't get to override the actual lore.

The fact that the Dunmer don't have to do anything and still retain their rights and control over the quarter is justification enough for Ulfric not to bother doing much for them.

The Grey Quarter was originally a refugee camp, and in many ways still is. It isn't Ulfric's obligation to turn it into the Elven Garden, and especially not so when it generally doesn't even fall under his jurisdiction. Ulfrics only real, substantial charge and obligation to the Grey Quarter is its defense from hostile invaders. Nothing else. (And before you say it, no, a couple of drunken, racist beggars do not count as foreign invaders)

BS. Everyone who has anything relevant on the topic to say, mentions going to the guards and Ulfric. It doesn't indicate at all that it's outside Ulfric's jurisdiction.

Again, you don't get to override what's actually in the game, by stuff you just postulated yourself.

Its funny that you're assuming this has any relevance and that you're also missing the point pretty hard. The Neimoller quote makes the point I was making: that ignoring persecution just because it doesn't affect you personally is going to be your ruin. The Thalmor want to eventually reverse mankinds ascension into importance (and probably just reverse mankind period) and the elimination of the worship of Talos (Talos essentially being the patron god of Mankind, mind you) is the first step in that plan.

And besides that, you completely miss the point of the analogy with the Nazi's. We compare the Thalmor with the Nazi's because they are essentially the same sort of entities. The Nazi's killed because of race, the Thalmor because of religion. Its two vastly similar entities doing largely the same things but for different though very, very similar reasons.

But apparently all that standing up for rights doesn't apply when it's about the rights of a bunch of people actually discriminated against by race, you know, just like the Nazis you brought up, and like the author you quoted was actually saying in the very thing you quoted. THEN it's just rushing to trot out the actual racist excuses for why that discrimination totally doesn't matter.

No, sorry, you're not convincing me that you're doing more than emotionally-charged BS with that quote

The Jews =/= Dunmer, and what power was given to the Jews is the exact opposite of what was given to the Dunmer. See above for the differences.

You keep postulating that, but, again, where is the information in game that supports such a postulate? Where is it mentioned anything about Ulfric not having jurisdiction in his own town?

Actual game content, please, not your own suppositions.

And again, no one is forced to live there.

And again, something boiling down to "but nobody is keeping them in the country" is actual racism, not something that makes it ok. Someone born in Windhelm should have the same rights as everyone born in Windhelm. Period. The idea that it's not racist if nobody's keeping them in Windhelm is bogus.

If you want to say it's not racist, that's NOT an argument in that direction.

Which again proves the Dunmer's own laziness. The Dunmer are naturally some of the more capable people on Tamriel. They could easily raise their own guard if they took the iniative. But if they took the initiative, rather than sit around and whine when they're fortunate to even have a place to live (that they don't have to do anything to have mind you), then they wouldn't need to raise their own guard because Ulfric won't spare any, but because their new city needs a garrison.

Again: show where in the game is that supported. So far all you offer is just insisting that somehow "self" means they're allowed to govern everyone else too, which isn't supported in any way or shape, and usually hasn't meant that in Earth history either. Everything said on the topic actually indicates that they go to the guards and Ulfric for their grievances, NOT that somehow Ulfric has no jurisdiction over his own Nords in his own city when they wander there, nor that they have the authority to start arresting Nords.

All you have is one edict from before Ulfric's time, which may or may not even be applied. In fact, it is shown in the game that at least one provision of it is violated in the game and both sides turn a blind eye. Those guys are granted "free worship" by that edict, yet the Vigilants of Stendarr openly state that they hunt daedra worshippers, i.e., those who practice the old Dunmer religion. Doesn't exactly sound to me like "free worship".

As I predicted, you denounce the source yet don't explain why its illegitimate.

I'll say to you too: it's silly to lie about what I said or didn't say, when it's on the same page. But I'll repeat it again, in case it sinks in this time: you don't get to just make up lore or canon. That's why. If it's in the game, or comes from Bethesda, it's official. Otherwise it's just some random guy's imagination, and worth exactly nothing. Fan-fic doesn't get to define the canon. Period.

Ulfric says the duel was legimate. Elisif says it wasn't. Some say Ulfric's a loon, some a hero among men. Some say the Dunmer are just lazy, others persecuted. Some say the Imperials are good, some say they're bad.

What, precisely, disproves what? Sorry to break it to you, but he-said, she-said doesn't work as evidence.

Basing it on a he-said, she-said from the actual game, still beats basing it on your own arbitrary re-imagining canon. It's that simple. Your disbelief is fully irrelevant. You don't just get to make up what's in the game in any case, including your finding the actual content untrustworthy.

Or it just proves that you're missing the entire point of this topic and don't want to actually debate (HINT: Debates aren't short and simple).

Well, yes, you're correct about one thing. Actually having a logically sound point is generally shorter and simpler than uninformed "debates". If you have a valid logical inference AND the supportable premises, that tends to be it. Pulling stuff out the rear end and stringing fallacies, can go on for ever.

And, yes, I'm not interested in debating for debate sake. Either you support your claims, or you don't have an argument. I'm interested in what can be supported as true, not in just a debate.

In fact, going in a discussion just to cause a debate for debate sake actually has a name: trolling. No, I'm not interested in that.

Do you have any actually supportable information?

And I'm not getting into how I"ve already supported much of what I've said. Sorry if I don't write out a bibliography with every post but this topic has been going on for 50+ pages. If you want my sources, read through the topic. I"m not listing them every time someone new hops into the topic for a couple pages, probably without even reading the rest of the topic.

Sadly, I haven't seen anything even vaguely approaching a sound argument yet.

[fraquar]

Yeah, there is 1 free house and the player basically has to win the Civil War to be able to purchase it. Maybe if the Dunmer helped win the Civil War they'd be able to purchase it?

[sajuukkhar9000]

Because after being discriminated against for years the dunmer of Windhelm have SO much reason to believe that if they helped they would get compensation for it?

[fraquar]

They are the ones that continue to do the same thing and get nowhere and complain about it. They got to have a raging headache seeing as all they keep doing is beating their head against a brick wall. How about just trying to walk around it instead? Their methods aren't working, try something different.

Edited by fraquar, 09 July 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[imperistan]

How do you think this hypothetical, yet not unlikely event would influence actions and opinions of local Nords, Windhelm authorities and Ulfric himself ?

If the Dunmer raised their own guard, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if conflicts arose. Though personally I think if the Dunmer gained the drive to do that then getting out of Windhelm would be the next step for them regardless of what conflicts may rise in the mean time.

That is blatantly false for anyone who's played the game, as there IS one free house in that city, and, if you've done a certain quest, at least one more. Plus what is actually said in the game is that they're not ALLOWED, not that they couldn't find a house to rent.

Other people have equal right to live in the rest of the city too you know. Again, the Grey Quarter was set aside specifically for the Dunmer to live in. The rest of the city was (and is) reserved for original Windhelm citizens (and in the sort of society that exists in Tamriel, original citizens take some precedence over refugees). The Dunmer are not true citizens of Windhelm and never were.

BS. Everyone who has anything relevant on the topic to say, mentions going to the guards and Ulfric. It doesn't indicate at all that it's outside Ulfric's jurisdiction.

It doesn't not indicate it either. Quote me some undeniable proof that Ulfric is directly saying "No, we won't help you because we don't like you", and I'll concede. Until then, my point stands.

But apparently all that standing up for rights doesn't apply when it's about the rights of a bunch of people actually discriminated against by race,

Can't get over the Dunmer can you? I'm not even going into how its terribly obvious that you're using the Dunmer as a red herring, but the Dunmer are irrelevant to the actual Stormcloak cause. They have all the power to fix their situation, period. That they don't is their own faults. Not the Stormcloaks.

It doesn't matter if there really is discrimination (No, there isn't) because no one is forcing them to live there. And unless you're going to try and pull this crap that Ulfric should be a social revolutionary (when even the notion of such thing won't even be invented in his world for another thousand years, if not even longer) then you can't say they can't fix their own situation. They can either leave and make their own lives, or they can get off their asses and fix their problems.

After 200 years, it isn't the Jarl's responsibility to help the Dunmer along. IF this was just following the Red Year, then yes, the Jarl would have an obligation to help the Dunmer refugees set up in the Grey Quarter. But this is 200 years after the fact. The Jarls of Windhelm have already given all the assistance they were ever obligated to give them.

Actual game content, please, not your own suppositions.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

But why should I even bother to quote my source yet again when you're just going to ignore it like you did before? Theres little point in showing you evidence when you're just going to sit there and look the other way for no other seeming reason than because it doesn't taste good when you read it. That is straight out of the game. If you deny it yet again then you're a hypocrite.

Someone born in Windhelm should have the same rights as everyone born in Windhelm. Period. The idea that it's not racist if nobody's keeping them in Windhelm is bogus.

The Grey Quarter isn't a real part of Windhelm.

There's also the fact that theres acres of farmable land just waiting to be taken within Eastmarch and other parts of Skyrim. Windhelm isn't the only place the Dunmer have. It isn't a choice between Windhelm or staving out on Vvardenfel.

You also have to wonder why apparently the Dunmer want to stay where they are. I can't imagine why anyone of them would want to stay in Windhelm, regardless of what "discrimination" you say is going on. Explain to me why the Dunmer want to stay in Windhelm and may be I'll concede that they could be deserving of a little more help.

. So far all you offer is just insisting that somehow "self" means they're allowed to govern everyone else too,

Every governing body that has ever existed has had the right to govern those who insert themselves within their borders. This is why you can't go to France, murder a bunch of a people, and then come back to the US and expect to get off scott free. If the Dunmer want those two drunken beggars gone, they can raise a guard, evict the two men, and they will be in the right. None of it has to be violent. Lets remember that these two aren't exactly Nordic Warlords, its not like they'd actually be much trouble to evict from the area.

Those guys are granted "free worship" by that edict, yet the Vigilants of Stendarr openly state that they hunt daedra worshippers, i.e., those who practice the old Dunmer religion. Doesn't exactly sound to me like "free worship".

Are you being intentionally dense or are you really just that forgone??

you don't get to just make up lore or canon

Clearly a book out straight out of the game is just made up canon. A site that takes the vast majority of its information straight from the Creation Kit is obviously just all made up fan-fic.

Try harder.

Basing it on a he-said, she-said from the actual game, still beats basing it on your own arbitrary re-imagining canon. It's that simple. Your disbelief is fully irrelevant. You don't just get to make up what's in the game in any case, including your finding the actual content untrustworthy.

In other words: I didn't read the topic.

[BrettM]

Except we have no evidence that it was sanctioned by The Empire, all we know is that Igmund, by himself, said it was ok.

Except we do have evidence, which I cited and quoted just a few posts before yours. That evidence is crystal clear: the Empire sanctioned Talos worship in Markarth and later reneged on the deal when the Thalmor got wind of it.