576 replies to this topic

[Stemin]

But indifference, esp. in this context, is not racism...despite a rather emotional, even desperate, attempt to define it as such. It is, simply, the way the universe works.

You're right. Indifference is not racism. But Ulfric is racist. It's been pointed out time and again in this thread. Ignoring it doesn't change it.

[StayFrosty05]

What are you talking about?!

No species, no "race", has a birthright to safety and equality! We don't come into this world with a guarantee of anything...not even our next breath.

It's sophistry, pure and simple, to assert otherwise. And I suspect that it arises from a contemporary sense of entitlement that frankly no one in any society similar to those of Skyrim would recognize.

Or a deeply solipsistic perception that the universe revolves around us and cares about what happens to us.

Sometimes, in some places, and in some eras, people come together to create governments which undertake to offer...not guarantee...a measure of protection to their citizens--universally defined as stakeholders in the government. Such governments and such assurances are wholly constructs of the societies from which they arise.

Neither the AD, nor the Empire, nor the Stormcloaks are constitutional forms of government. They are all ruled from the top down. And they all regard their citizens as incidental. None of them derive their power from a mandate of the people; nor are they obligated to fulfill the expectations or wish-lists of the dissatisfied.

Ulfric leads a fragile faction that despises the political union of the AD and the Empire. He has one focus--to defeat the Empire and kick out the Thalmor. He is loyal to, and solicitous of, those who support him and his cause. Stakeholders, taxpayers.

............................

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

[Stemin]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

And nobody in either of these threads has pointed out that the genius that is Ulfric Stormcloak is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. If anyone actually read the dossier in the game, they'd be aware of this. The Thalmor actually let him escape because he was so predictable.

[StayFrosty05]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

And nobody in either of these threads has pointed out that the genius that is Ulfric Stormcloak is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. If anyone actually read the dossier in the game, they'd be aware of this. The Thalmor actually let him escape because he was so predictable.

Oops... ....Forgot about that, point taken Stemin.

[imperistan]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

And nobody in either of these threads has pointed out that the genius that is Ulfric Stormcloak is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. If anyone actually read the dossier in the game, they'd be aware of this. The Thalmor actually let him escape because he was so predictable.

So I guess Ulfric is on Alduin's side as well? Is he on the side of the Tsaesci or the Ka Po' Tun?

Just because Ulfric is being a benefit to the Dominion doesn't make his war a bad thing. Any other enemy to the Empire causing issues for the Empire would be a benefit to the Dominion.

And no, its doubtful the Thalmor thought Ulfric predictable. What most likely happened is that in the middle of torturing him (or simply watching rot away in his cage, Ulfric did what any Nord would have done and vowed vengeance against the Empire that fed him to the Thalmor and basically used him for his prowess. And considering his role in Markarth they likely knew he could actually make due on that vow, at least enough to cause a problem for the Empire.

You really would have to be a blind Imperial fanatic to believe that being a benefit to the Dominion makes the Stormcloak's cause any less legitimate, however. The (False) Empire is dying and quite frankly it doesn't deserve to live anymore. The Empire all the Empire supporters wants to survive already crashed and burned 200 years ago. What we have now is a cannibal Empire wearing the old Empire for a hat. Its leadership is corrupt, its Emperor inept (and on his way to his grave) and whatever bastard children (if any) he may have are unlikely to salvage what they inherit.

It would be far better to see the Empire fall so that a new one could rise. It doesn't have to be a Stormcloak-ian Empire. Nor does it have to be a Dominion Empire. It doesn't even need to be an Empire, it could be something completely different. At any rate, the Dominion does have to be put down (and funnily enough the Empire's the only force on Tamriel that could be mustered when the time comes that couldn't do it) and at this time Ulfric is the only one actively pushing for that to happen in the here and now, which is the right thing to do. (as playing the waiting game with the Dominion is, in actuality, playing into their hands. And the Empire is doing just that)

[robanybody2000]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

And nobody in either of these threads has pointed out that the genius that is Ulfric Stormcloak is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. If anyone actually read the dossier in the game, they'd be aware of this. The Thalmor actually let him escape because he was so predictable.

So I guess Ulfric is on Alduin's side as well? Is he on the side of the Tsaesci or the Ka Po' Tun?

Just because Ulfric is being a benefit to the Dominion doesn't make his war a bad thing. Any other enemy to the Empire causing issues for the Empire would be a benefit to the Dominion.

And no, its doubtful the Thalmor thought Ulfric predictable. What most likely happened is that in the middle of torturing him (or simply watching rot away in his cage, Ulfric did what any Nord would have done and vowed vengeance against the Empire that fed him to the Thalmor and basically used him for his prowess. And considering his role in Markarth they likely knew he could actually make due on that vow, at least enough to cause a problem for the Empire.

You really would have to be a blind Imperial fanatic to believe that being a benefit to the Dominion makes the Stormcloak's cause any less legitimate, however. The (False) Empire is dying and quite frankly it doesn't deserve to live anymore. The Empire all the Empire supporters wants to survive already crashed and burned 200 years ago. What we have now is a cannibal Empire wearing the old Empire for a hat. Its leadership is corrupt, its Emperor inept (and on his way to his grave) and whatever bastard children (if any) he may have are unlikely to salvage what they inherit.

It would be far better to see the Empire fall so that a new one could rise. It doesn't have to be a Stormcloak-ian Empire. Nor does it have to be a Dominion Empire. It doesn't even need to be an Empire, it could be something completely different. At any rate, the Dominion does have to be put down (and funnily enough the Empire's the only force on Tamriel that could be mustered when the time comes that couldn't do it) and at this time Ulfric is the only one actively pushing for that to happen in the here and now, which is the right thing to do. (as playing the waiting game with the Dominion is, in actuality, playing into their hands. And the Empire is doing just that)

If your character doesn't get involved in the rebelion, neither side will win. As for part-taking in the civil war is a question of opinion. To go as far as calling someone "blind Imperial fanatic" just for having a different view of tha war goes a little to far.

[imperistan]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

And nobody in either of these threads has pointed out that the genius that is Ulfric Stormcloak is playing right into the Thalmor's hands. If anyone actually read the dossier in the game, they'd be aware of this. The Thalmor actually let him escape because he was so predictable.

So I guess Ulfric is on Alduin's side as well? Is he on the side of the Tsaesci or the Ka Po' Tun?

Just because Ulfric is being a benefit to the Dominion doesn't make his war a bad thing. Any other enemy to the Empire causing issues for the Empire would be a benefit to the Dominion.

And no, its doubtful the Thalmor thought Ulfric predictable. What most likely happened is that in the middle of torturing him (or simply watching rot away in his cage, Ulfric did what any Nord would have done and vowed vengeance against the Empire that fed him to the Thalmor and basically used him for his prowess. And considering his role in Markarth they likely knew he could actually make due on that vow, at least enough to cause a problem for the Empire.

You really would have to be a blind Imperial fanatic to believe that being a benefit to the Dominion makes the Stormcloak's cause any less legitimate, however. The (False) Empire is dying and quite frankly it doesn't deserve to live anymore. The Empire all the Empire supporters wants to survive already crashed and burned 200 years ago. What we have now is a cannibal Empire wearing the old Empire for a hat. Its leadership is corrupt, its Emperor inept (and on his way to his grave) and whatever bastard children (if any) he may have are unlikely to salvage what they inherit.

It would be far better to see the Empire fall so that a new one could rise. It doesn't have to be a Stormcloak-ian Empire. Nor does it have to be a Dominion Empire. It doesn't even need to be an Empire, it could be something completely different. At any rate, the Dominion does have to be put down (and funnily enough the Empire's the only force on Tamriel that could be mustered when the time comes that couldn't do it) and at this time Ulfric is the only one actively pushing for that to happen in the here and now, which is the right thing to do. (as playing the waiting game with the Dominion is, in actuality, playing into their hands. And the Empire is doing just that)

If your character doesn't get involved in the rebelion, neither side will win. As for part-taking in the civil war is a question of opinion. To go as far as calling someone "blind Imperial fanatic" just for having a different view of tha war goes a little to far.

Eventually one side will win the war even without the Dragonborn's involvement. The two sides simply couldn't stalemate each other, they're too different and whats more the events outside of the war will have a heavy effect on it. The Emperor being assassinated, the dragon crisis, etc will influence who wins out in the end, and really it could go either way.

And I said that you'd have to be a fanatic because to sit there and say (or rather, allude) that the Stormcloak's cause is illegitimate just because it so happens to benefit the Dominion indicates that much. Its not having a different view on the war so much as it is getting caught up on one fact and denouncing the other side of the argument afterwards, without even considering the fact that supporting the Imperials in the war benefits the Dominion in the same way. If the Imperial side really wanted to get at the Dominion, they'd be pushing for the war to end immediately with both sides reconciling and consolidating. The reason Ulfric pushes for total independence (rather than an immediate peace and reconciliation) is because the Empire has given him little choice, what with their past actions against not only him, but just in general. And honestly, if the Empire was willing to do what needed to be done (in the pursuit of defeating the Dominion) in the first place then this war would have never happened, because the Empire already beat the Dominion once. But then Emperor Short-sight McGee decided to let the Dominion win anyway, giving the Dominion virtually everything they wanted (which was why that war started in the first place, the Empire refusing the Dominion's ultimatum), and thats whats ultimately lead to this conflict.

But getting back to what I was talking a bout, the only reason I could see you holding that fact (the Rebellion benefitting the Dominion) as an actual con for supporting the Stormcloaks is if you are a blind fanatic who can't see that both sides of the war are benefiting the Dominion. Its sheer hypocrisy.

Edited by imperistan, 22 May 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[cooltrickle]

"Racism" is just the politically correct buzzword du jour. I don't think there's any real evidence of racism on Ulfric's part. It's a transposition of a 21st century malaise.

Human beings are genetically programed to trust family first, clan second...and so forth, with diminishing trust as more complex and diverse hierarchies develop.

In feudal or relatively non-diverse societies, trust doesn't come easy for those who appear different and may not ever come for those who do not share a common culture. If only because "racism" is at least one-third part cultural conflict.

Because "trust" is the issue...the real issue. And Trust Must be Earned.

I suspect that when you really look closely...and objectively...Ulfric is revealed as being almost indifferent to race. But he doesn't trust people who have not proven themselves.

Ulfric has a political objective--to dissolve the unholy alliance between the Thalmor and the putative government of Skyrim. And that's not so hard to understand.

Thanks for posting this. I'm getting tired of all the sissies whining about "racism", so this is a breath of fresh air.

I read the Amulet of Kings recently, and paraphrasing, it went something like this:

The Ayelids (elves) preyed without mercy upon the young races of men, slaughtering or enslaving them at their whim (with the help of armies of summoned daedra and dead spirits). Akatosh took pity on the plight of men and intervened by sealing the Gates of Oblivion, cutting off the supply of daedra to the Ayelids.

In the Great War, it points out that, "all manner of atrocities carried out on the innocent populace [in the Imperial City] by the elves".

I can't recall the source, but I also read that the Snow Elves declared war on mankind due to intolerance (they were alarmed at the rate at which man was breeding) and were initially successful. Then Ysgramor and the 500 Companions showed up and turned it around. The Snow Elves then scurried away underground and met the Dwemer, who treated the former so badly they became the Falmer. In the Summerset Isles, the Thalmor were a small faction, tolerated by the Altmer. The Altmer could have wiped them out, but they didn't. How did the Thalmor repay the Altmer? By taking control of the Isles, during the Oblivion Crisis. This is how elves treat each other? It seems to me that there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the elves aren't exactly innocent and don't even treat each other very well. Yet some people don't pay much attention to it, preferring to call the Nords racist. If two races behave just as badly as each other but you only criticise one of them, I would say that makes YOU racist.

Also, in the Great War, it states that the Thalmor took over the Summerset Isles and Valenwood, and had 70 years to consolidate their position. Meanwhile the Empire did nothing. When the two moons disappeared and then reappeared, the Thalmor took credit, gaining the respect of Elsweyr. Again, the Empire did nothing to restore its influence with the Khajiit. In this way the Empire gives up a chunk of its territory without a fight and alienates the Khajiit, Argonians, Bosmer and the Altmer. The Empire only fought back when the Thalmor tried to take Hammerfell, and that ended up with the Thalmor taking most of Hammerfell. What are the remaining provinces of the Empire supposed to think, other than the Empire is incapable of protecting them? Just as the Roman Empire was not the same empire throughout its existence, neither is this one. It's become lazy and stagnant. It deserves to fall and be rebuilt by better leaders. I'm not saying that Ulfric is the best that Skyrim has to offer, but if he has vision and the influence to realise it, why he shouldn't he try?

One last thing. In the Amulet of Kings, it describes the amulet as containing the blood of Akatosh within central red diamond surrounded by eight other gems. The diamond symbolises the Empire, while the other gems are the Eight Divines. Later in the book, Akatosh acknowledges Nine Divines. Since Talos founded the Empire, he must be represented by the diamond, therefore he is a true Divine, and the Nords have every right to continue to worship him, regardless of what anyone else says. The Empire has lost its faith and its way. Let it fall so that true leaders may rise from the ashes!

[imperistan]

. The Empire only fought back when the Thalmor tried to take Hammerfell, and that ended up with the Thalmor taking most of Hammerfell. What are the remaining provinces of the Empire supposed to think, other than the Empire is incapable of protecting them

Just a fact check, but it didn't happen exactly like that. The Empire only fought the Dominion when they tried to give an ultimatum to the Empire, which did include southern Hammerfel. However, the war didn't start in Hammerfel but in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was invaded first (as a distraction) and within the same day another invasion army drove through the area between Kvatch and Anvil and invaded Hammerfel, which was their real target. The war raged on for some weeks and eventually the Dominion forces began to notice that they were doing extraordinarily well in Cyrodiil, and this lead to a major portion of their military might that wasn't already occupied elsewhere being called in to take the Imperial City. They did this, and eventually that lead to the War of the Red Ring, where the entire Dominion presence in Cyrodiil got wiped out when the Legion got their collective crap together.

Meanwhile, in Hammerfel, the Dominion forces had raged through the southern half of the province and were pushing their way across the Alik'r until they suffered a defeat -somewhere- (forget where, don't feel like pullin up UESP) and got pushed back into the south. Not long after, Emperor Short-Sight McGee called for the Legions in Hammerfel to march on Cyrodiil (IE, he ordered Hammerfel abandoned) but one of the generals who had some sense decided to leave soldiers behind (calling them disabled or something like that) and it was that small fraction of a Legion along with the Hammerfel militia that went on to fight the Dominion. After the war ended (and the Dominion got everything they wanted), Hammerfel was cut off from the rest of the Empire (because understandably its inhabitants weren't stupid enough to stop fighting, so the Empire abandoned them) and Hammerfel went on to fight the Dominion to a stalemate within months. They kept the Dominion at this stalemate for 5 years (IE, the Dominion had 5 years to resupply their forces there if not land a fresh invasion force, and yet they still couldn't break the stalemate) after which the Dominion gave up and withdrew entirely from Hammerfel.

The south of Hammerfel was ravaged, but Hammerfel ultimately won against the Dominion. And this is ultimately my main reason for supporting the Stormcloaks. If the Empire's leadership was so inept as to let that happen (considering that it wasn't like they ever had their testes in a vice grip or anything remotely like that then they will never be fit to lead the next fight against the Dominion, which in truth should have happened 30 years ago.

Edited by imperistan, 22 May 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[cooltrickle]

. The Empire only fought back when the Thalmor tried to take Hammerfell, and that ended up with the Thalmor taking most of Hammerfell. What are the remaining provinces of the Empire supposed to think, other than the Empire is incapable of protecting them

Just a fact check, but it didn't happen exactly like that. The Empire only fought the Dominion when they tried to give an ultimatum to the Empire, which did include southern Hammerfel. However, the war didn't start in Hammerfel but in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was invaded first (as a distraction) and within the same day another invasion army drove through the area between Kvatch and Anvil and invaded Hammerfel, which was their real target.

....
The south of Hammerfel was ravaged, but Hammerfel ultimately won against the Dominion. And this is ultimately my main reason for supporting the Stormcloaks. If the Empire's leadership was so inept as to let that happen (considering that it wasn't like they ever had their testes in a vice grip or anything remotely like that then they will never be fit to lead the next fight against the Dominion, which in truth should have happened 30 years ago.

You're right, but I was just paraphrasing. I'm aware that the Thalmor's real objective was to take Hammerfell. It was only when the Thalmor realised that the Empire was so weak that they made a grab for the Imperial City. Props to Titus Mede II for getting the Imperial City back, but he should have fought back much earlier. As a result lots of people have lost their lives and even their countries.

I haven't actually participated in the Civil War quests as I feel it's beneath the Dragonborn to involve himself with that. I expected to have to miss out on resolving that but I was pleased to discover that there is another way via the Greybeards, while following the main quest.