576 replies to this topic

[BrettM]

The Empire all the Empire supporters wants to survive already crashed and burned 200 years ago.

This. Squared.

The Nords, being traditionalists, seem slow to recognize change in others. I don't know how many times I wanted to just grab Balgruuf and shake him to get him to see that the Empire he describes exists only in his mind, not in reality. The ties of kinship and shared history that existed between the Empire and Skyrim during the Septim dynasty are long gone.

Following the end of the Septim dynasty, Cyrodiil was consumed with internal problems because of the need to resolve the succession. I believe this internal focus made them parochial, costing them a cosmopolitan understanding of the rest of the Empire. The other provinces were cast adrift to deal with their own problems over the last 200 years, which eventually led to the nearly-uncontested loss of Elsweyr and Valenwood. The modern Empire seems to regard all other provinces, not just Skyrim, as being uncivilized and on the brink of barbarism and chaos. Tullius will certainly tell you so, and it is clear from the first conversation that you hear between him and Rikka that he has no respect for Nord ways or their political system, though it has been functioning pretty well for over 2,000 years as three empires came and went. Even the guards in the various holds will comment that "the Empire thinks we are all lawless beasts." Did the Septims think so? I doubt it. The Empire has become insular and arrogant.

So, now we have a Cyrodiil that is undoubtedly riddled with Thalmor "observers" and "advisors" who are really spies and political control officers. The Empire can't build any strength outside the awareness of the Dominion, who will be prepared to counter it. The Empire has lost their premier intelligence/covert-ops group, the Blades, so they are left in the dark about what is happening in the Dominion. The Thalmor parading around Understone Keep openly brag about having complete control over the Empire. Cyrodiil is a Dominion client state in all but name. How are they going to free themselves from that?

The modern Empire also bleeds its outlands of manpower and resources while providing little or nothing in return. It is even prepared to steal those resources, sending agents like Margret out to get the job done. The corruption of the Silver-Bloods is outrageous, but is not the corruption of the Empire equally outrageous? They weren't satisfied with just a cut of the output of Cidhna Mine, they wanted it all even if they had to assassinate the owner and steal the deed. If they had succeeded, does anyone really think they would make any changes in the manner of obtaining the labor for the mine? Does anyone think they would implement some enlightened reforms in prisoner treatment? Now who are the lawless beasts?

Having cemented their control over the heart of the Empire, the Dominion is now making inroads into Skyrim. As the story opens, this process has only recently begun. It hasn't gone very far yet -- an embassy and remote fortress in Haafinger, a few troops parading around Markarth's palace, an "advisor" in the College of Winterhold, and some roving patrols on the roads -- but it certainly won't stop there. They are already recruiting Nord informants like Gissur. This process will eventually lead to the ills of a police state. Want to get rid of a business rival? Having a property dispute with a neighbor? Angry with someone over an insult? Tell the Thalmor that he worships Talos and watch them drag him away. Neighbor won't be able to trust neighbor. Skyrim will be demoralized and unable to organize any viable resistance.

(Balgruuf's main problem, I think, is that he hasn't had any first hand experience with the havoc the Thalmor are causing. He hasn't seen their torture dungeons in Northwatch Keep or the justiciar parade in Understone Keep. He is probably unaware of the existential disaster almost caused by Ancano, as the College seems to have kept it quiet even from the guards who seem to know everything else you've ever done. The people of Whiterun have mostly escaped these kinds of abuses and he is discounting the possibility. It Can't Happen Here. But it can. How long before the Thalmor find out about a statue of Talos sitting out in the open and a priest of Talos allowed to rant openly in front of it? It's a miracle that they haven't heard of it already. All it would take is one Thalmor sycophant like Gissur to drop the dime, but Balgruuf doesn't seem to realize the peril. However, I digress.)

Honestly, an independent Skyrim seems like the best hope of countering the Thalmor, but only if they act now. A rebellion is not only the best hope for Skyrim, but for the Empire as well in the long run. Sticking with the Empire means going down with it. Remember how Jarl Igmund is always denying that the Forsworn can get into the city, and his uncle is always trying to point out that they are already there? Rikka is like that as well, continually saying that the Empire is the only hope of keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim. But, as I look around, it seems to me that they are already there and Rikka is in complete denial.

[MacSuibhne]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

No offense intended...seriously...but I suspect you have a problem with authority. Many in contemporary society do--I suspect it's a reflection of the ever-narrowing constraints that a large population, a burgeoning, over-protective bureaucracy and a RL society in decline, imposes.

You don't like Ulfric or mentalities like his. And all facts or rationality is swept aside in the face of that sentiment.

Maybe that's understandable esp. if you happen to be a "certain age." But it suggests that you wouldn't like George Washington, either, or Winston Churchill or Napoleon Bonaparte or William Wallace or Abraham Lincoln or Franklin Rooseveldt (nevermind Teddy) or Charlemagne--any one of a hundred historical leaders/heros who shaped Western Civilization.

Strong leaders are almost, by default "pr*ck"s...esp. from the perspective of those who bridle at confidence (no matter how misplaced) and those who believe that "grey areas" (different sides of an argument) should matter--those who tend to "overthink" everything, in other words. Even when crisis is upon them.

Ulfric...like all those cited...is fallible and flawed. But to lead you have to have a vision, believe in it, and be focused on it to the exclusion of all else. That's the essence of confidence and it is what gives such people their charisma.

Unfortunately, no matter the ultimate outcome, it makes all the rest of us doubt our certainty that we...not Ulfric...are the center of the universe.

Edited by MacSuibhne, 22 May 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[robanybody2000]

note that Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor (althou the war was lost before The Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai is signed) while Ulfric is fighting the Empire. Personaly all stormcloaks i've encountered were talking of killing imperials not high elves or dominion soldiers, wich goes the same for the imperial soldiers.

4E 175 — Hammerfell leaves the Empire after rejecting the White-Gold Concordat.

Titus II renounces Hammerfell as a province of the Empire to preserve the treaty after the Redguards oppose ceding their lands. The Redguards see this as a betrayal, and a lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire is sown to the delight of the Thalmor. Hammerfell continues to war with the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.

4E 176 — Ulfric Stormcloak retakes The Reach instigating the Markarth Incident.

The Empire and the son of the deposed Jarl promised Ulfric Stormcloak free worship of Talos in exchange for retaking The Reach. Ulfric forms a Nord militia and crushes the Reachmen at Markarth with the aid of the Thu'um. The survivors flee into the wilds forming a group called the Forsworn. Ulfric is arrested when the Thalmor discover the open worship of Talos. Ulfric and his men are eventually released, but the incident kindles what will become the Stormcloak Rebellion.

So 1 year after Hammerfell leaves the empire continuing the war with the Dominion, Ulfric was working FOR the Empire reclaiming the Reach. That puts the question "Is Ulfric realy fighting the Aldmeri Dominion?" if yes he should have started in 4E 171 (about 5 years earlier) when The Great War started. From my point of view he's about 5 years late to prove himself. You can't win a contest if you don't part-take in it.

[BrettM]

Ulfric did fight the Dominion in the Great War. He left his training to be a Graybeard to join the Legion. The Empire did not start enforcing the Concordat on Skyrim until after the Markarth Incident, at which point Ulfric felt just as betrayed as Hammerfell was earlier. (It's a common failing. Ulfric was not overly concerned about the Concordat until it affected him directly. I seem to recall a conversation in there somewhere that he even turned down a request from Hammerfell for support after he had retaken the Reach.)

As far as we know, Hammerfell did not have to fight the Empire as a preface to fighting the Thalmor, because the Empire renounced Hammerfell and withdrew immediately. Hammerfell could take on the Thalmor directly without Legion interference.

The case in Skyrim is different, since the Empire is supporting the Thalmor there rather than renouncing the province. I believe it was the Empire that arrested Ulfric, though he was then turned over to the Thalmor. Ulfric has to get the Empire out of the way before he can fight the Dominion, so of course the Stormcloaks are mostly concerned with the immediate goal. However, Ulfric has made it clear that fighting the Dominion is his ultimate goal. The Stormcloaks also understand who the real enemy is, and they do not just talk about killing Imperials if you listen to their camp conversations.

Edited by BrettM, 22 May 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[pbehhe]

well anyone that hates me for this post so be it, I myself as an altmer player believe that ulfric was right to kill toryg since in the aldmeri embassy it states that the AD plan to take over skyrim once the war has left it weak and defenceless so yeah I as an altmer would enjoy being a mer in a land of mer while ulfric and his goons would be either dead or slaves, sucks to be them. if you want to hear an objective opinion, I think ulfric does love skyrim, he is not aware of his ego and actually believes his nonsense. I play as an imperial everytime and assasinate the emperor because I don't give a damn about him, it's the idea of an empire to keep order that is necessary so I side with imperials (since the AD won't take over in this game).

[MacSuibhne]

.Several points...drawn from but not directly comparing RL history with the situation in Skyrim:

First) I'm sure the Thalmor regard Ulfric's resistance and the Civil War as a good thing. Nothing new about that. The last thing they want is a united Skyrim. And of course they would say that Ulfric is playing right into their hands (Germany said the same thing about the invasion of North Africa).

And they don't have to say anything, or anything similar, about the Empire, do they?--it's all too evident that the Empire is already in their hands...lock stock and barrel.

Second) Ulfric may not have a chance esp. if the Empire sides with the Thalmor. [Then again Scotland didn't have much of a chance at Sterling Castle or Bannockburn. Nor did England have much chance against Germany as long as the US stayed out of it.]

And the Empire will almost certainly side with the Thalmer given their belief that temporizing, collaboration and expediency are the prudent course.

Third and on that note) the US didn't have any chance at all against England during our Stormcloak rebellion, yet somehow George Washington and the rebels prevailed.

And on paper, the US didn't have much of a chance against the Axis powers especially in light of the fact that they were already geared up for war, had multiple fronts and we were completely unprepared...had to start from scratch. A case can be made that we were unprepared because of the myopic vision of those who felt we would do better to stay out of it, or wait until we were stronger. Care to speculate how many lives were lost because of that short-sightedness?

That said, and despite what we'd like to believe, it wasn't a sure thing. It was admittedly a roll of the dice but an honourable one for all of that.

Just a few relevant but incidental points to keep things in perspective....

Edited by MacSuibhne, 22 May 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[StayFrosty05]

And this is why I choose to stay out of these debates...the hard factualist in me recognizes this...though I disagree defeating the Empire and kicking the Thalmor out is Ulfric's only focus....but none of this makes Ulfric any less of a pr*ck than he is, it's mentalities like Ulfric's that are responsible for the ridiculous generational feuds, etc... that plague our species.

No offense intended...seriously...but I suspect you have a problem with authority. Many in contemporary society do--I suspect it's a reflection of the ever-narrowing constraints that a large population, a burgeoning, over-protective bureaucracy and a RL society in decline, imposes.

You don't like Ulfric or mentalities like his. And all facts or rationality is swept aside in the face of that sentiment.

Maybe that's understandable esp. if you happen to be a "certain age." But it suggests that you wouldn't like George Washington, either, or Winston Churchill or Napoleon Bonaparte or William Wallace or Abraham Lincoln or Franklin Rooseveldt (nevermind Teddy) or Charlemagne--any one of a hundred historical leaders/heros who shaped Western Civilization.

Strong leaders are almost, by default "pr*ck"s...esp. from the perspective of those who bridle at confidence (no matter how misplaced) and those who believe that "grey areas" (different sides of an argument) should matter--those who tend to "overthink" everything, in other words. Even when crisis is upon them.

Ulfric...like all those cited...is fallible and flawed. But to lead you have to have a vision, believe in it, and be focused on it to the exclusion of all else. That's the essence of confidence and it is what gives such people their charisma.

Unfortunately, no matter the ultimate outcome, it makes all the rest of us doubt our certainty that we...not Ulfric...are the center of the universe.

Certain age?...I'm a 40 odd years old female....and believe in never just following blindly, always question, question, question...."because I said so" does not wash, I want facts backed with irrefutable evidence and from a variety of sources...coupled with a passionate interest in the Philosophy of ethics and Human Behavior....Sorry Mac, but you are way off the mark with me, I am an Observer and something of an Optimistic Cynic, you have mis-interpreted my intentions in my little speech.

[MacSuibhne]

^ Well, that "certain age" doesn't always correspond to actual chronological age. But by your own admission you have a problem with authority. I'm not going to get into whether that is a good thing or not, I suspect that the human race needs people of both kinds.

But there is no "irrefutable evidence" that Ulfric is a racist or a "pr*ck"--just biased, and often emotional, opinions, interpretations, slander and rants.

And FWIW, I am a 66 year old male.

Parenthetically, I did not intend to "mis-interpret" your posting...I try not to do that--just take at face value what is there. To the extent that my post offends you, I regret it.

Edited by MacSuibhne, 22 May 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[Stemin]

I'm not so sure that's true. Alvor does say that when he "was a boy", people got along by just keeping their own private shrines to Talos.

The White Gold Concordant was signed at the end of the Great War, which ended in 175. The events of the Dragonborn in Skyrim take place in 201. That means it's highly likely that when he "was a boy" was before the Talos ban in the first place since he looks to be at least 30 (especially judging by his wife's appearance and a child old enough to work around the forge a bit), probably closer to 40.

However, it seems likely to me that it took the Thalmor a few years to thoroughly infiltrate Cyrodiil with their "advisors" and "observers" and so forth before they could really start in on Skyrim, especially given their troubles in Hammerfell. I think it was inevitable that this infiltration would reach Skyrim as the Thalmor strengthened their foothold in the Empire, and religious persecution is only the most overt symptom right now. I have no doubt that they always intended to have their people at the elbows of everyone with a position of power in Skyrim, and we came in on the beginning of that.

Where are you getting your information about any Thalmor activity at all in Cyrodiil? Is it speculation or do you have some concrete facts from somewhere?

Ulfric didn't throw his tantrum until after the Empire came in and shut down the temple of Talos in Markarth. The Empire had nothing against Ulfric at that point, and they were more than happy that he reclaimed the Reach for them.

That would be incorrect. The Markarth incident took place in 176, about a year after the end of the war. Which means pretty much immediately after the treaty was signed, Ulfric was already brooding over it. The Empire never asked Ulfric to reclaim the reach. That's the whole point of the Markarth incident. Instead of waiting for Imperial troops, the Jarl decided to hire Ulfric to reclaim his kingdom. Basically at that point Ulfric was just a mercenary built by the Jarl as a militia. After Ulfric took back the Reach, he refused to turn the city over to the Jarl without lifting the Talos ban. The Jarl agreed to it, but when the Empire got around to getting troops out there, the Jarl was forced to arrest Ulfric, which led to his imprisonment by the Thalmor.

I would also submit that religious persecution "on paper" is still religious persecution if you feel forced to practice your religion in secret. Having to close down your temples and hide your beliefs is better than being dragged off by Thalmor justiciars, but it is far from religious freedom.

Who is being forced to practice their religion in secret? The only real concession that I noticed is they removed the shrine of Talos and closed the Temples. In case you didn't notice, there's a guy in Whiterun who regularly preaches about Talos right in public with no consequences at all (until his house got blowed up).

This. Squared.

The Nords, being traditionalists, seem slow to recognize change in others. I don't know how many times I wanted to just grab Balgruuf and shake him to get him to see that the Empire he describes exists only in his mind, not in reality. The ties of kinship and shared history that existed between the Empire and Skyrim during the Septim dynasty are long gone.

How is that relevant? They're still part of the empire, regardless of how they feel about it. That's part of the reason for the war in the first place. They don't follow Imperial laws and want to pretend they're their own sovereign nation. Not to mention you're playing a game in the province of Skyrim. You're only getting the Nord point of view. You have zero knowledge of what's going on right now in the Imperial Capital or how they feel about what's going on with the Thalmor or Skyrim.

Following the end of the Septim dynasty, Cyrodiil was consumed with internal problems because of the need to resolve the succession. I believe this internal focus made them parochial, costing them a cosmopolitan understanding of the rest of the Empire. The other provinces were cast adrift to deal with their own problems over the last 200 years, which eventually led to the nearly-uncontested loss of Elsweyr and Valenwood. The modern Empire seems to regard all other provinces, not just Skyrim, as being uncivilized and on the brink of barbarism and chaos. Tullius will certainly tell you so, and it is clear from the first conversation that you hear between him and Rikka that he has no respect for Nord ways or their political system, though it has been functioning pretty well for over 2,000 years as three empires came and went. Even the guards in the various holds will comment that "the Empire thinks we are all lawless beasts." Did the Septims think so? I doubt it. The Empire has become insular and arrogant.

So, now we have a Cyrodiil that is undoubtedly riddled with Thalmor "observers" and "advisors" who are really spies and political control officers. The Empire can't build any strength outside the awareness of the Dominion, who will be prepared to counter it. The Empire has lost their premier intelligence/covert-ops group, the Blades, so they are left in the dark about what is happening in the Dominion. The Thalmor parading around Understone Keep openly brag about having complete control over the Empire. Cyrodiil is a Dominion client state in all but name. How are they going to free themselves from that?

The modern Empire also bleeds its outlands of manpower and resources while providing little or nothing in return. It is even prepared to steal those resources, sending agents like Margret out to get the job done. The corruption of the Silver-Bloods is outrageous, but is not the corruption of the Empire equally outrageous? They weren't satisfied with just a cut of the output of Cidhna Mine, they wanted it all even if they had to assassinate the owner and steal the deed. If they had succeeded, does anyone really think they would make any changes in the manner of obtaining the labor for the mine? Does anyone think they would implement some enlightened reforms in prisoner treatment? Now who are the lawless beasts?

Having cemented their control over the heart of the Empire, the Dominion is now making inroads into Skyrim. As the story opens, this process has only recently begun. It hasn't gone very far yet -- an embassy and remote fortress in Haafinger, a few troops parading around Markarth's palace, an "advisor" in the College of Winterhold, and some roving patrols on the roads -- but it certainly won't stop there. They are already recruiting Nord informants like Gissur. This process will eventually lead to the ills of a police state. Want to get rid of a business rival? Having a property dispute with a neighbor? Angry with someone over an insult? Tell the Thalmor that he worships Talos and watch them drag him away. Neighbor won't be able to trust neighbor. Skyrim will be demoralized and unable to organize any viable resistance.

Where did you learn to debate? This whole mess above is so riddled with speculation... I'd say only about a 1/3 of it is really a fact at all.

(Balgruuf's main problem, I think, is that he hasn't had any first hand experience with the havoc the Thalmor are causing. He hasn't seen their torture dungeons in Northwatch Keep or the justiciar parade in Understone Keep. He is probably unaware of the existential disaster almost caused by Ancano, as the College seems to have kept it quiet even from the guards who seem to know everything else you've ever done. The people of Whiterun have mostly escaped these kinds of abuses and he is discounting the possibility. It Can't Happen Here. But it can. How long before the Thalmor find out about a statue of Talos sitting out in the open and a priest of Talos allowed to rant openly in front of it? It's a miracle that they haven't heard of it already. All it would take is one Thalmor sycophant like Gissur to drop the dime, but Balgruuf doesn't seem to realize the peril. However, I digress.)

Honestly, an independent Skyrim seems like the best hope of countering the Thalmor, but only if they act now. A rebellion is not only the best hope for Skyrim, but for the Empire as well in the long run. Sticking with the Empire means going down with it. Remember how Jarl Igmund is always denying that the Forsworn can get into the city, and his uncle is always trying to point out that they are already there? Rikka is like that as well, continually saying that the Empire is the only hope of keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim. But, as I look around, it seems to me that they are already there and Rikka is in complete denial.

What does Balgruuf have to do with Ulfric in the first place? Did you decide that he must be Ulfric's arch nemesis or is he the pivotal deciding Jarl in your mind? And I will say again. You're basing so much stuff about the Empire on what you're hearing solely from Skyrim. You have very little to go on as far as what's really going on with Skyrim. The only real information we have about the Empire comes from Tulius and a brief speech by the Emperor.

[Stemin]

But there is no "irrefutable evidence" that Ulfric is a racist or a "pr*ck"--just biased, and often emotional, opinions, interpretations, slander and rants.

So far I've heard an awful lot of rhetoric from you in your posts, but very little concrete facts from the game, and very little opposition to the points made against Ulfric by users in this thread. Instead I've heard you use philosophy, try to compare to real life events, make assumptions about the people posting against you, ignoring others, and even claiming that racism is just a "buzz word".

It must be very easy to dismiss other people's words as "often emotional, opinions, interpretations, slander and rants." when you just plain ignore what they're saying.