37 replies to this topic

[landy8]

Ghosts possessing their own body

And in the case you are talking about a necomancer had captured their spirits, different situation.

Excuse me, but isn't a ghost a form of spirit?

Besides, what fills the soul gem when you kill the soul trapped draugr? And don't tell me about the occultic view on the subject - I've studied it for some time, but I doubt Beth guys did the same. So the question is simple: does a draugr have a soul or not?

Flling soul gems tells that he does.

[landy8]

It is called a retcon, every fantasy series from Lord of the Rings, to Warcraft, to Elder Scrolls has had them.

Well, like Isaid, I'm not very interested in Bethesda's excuses to justify their mismatches. Call it retcon or otherwise.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Excuse me, but isn't a ghost a form of spirit?

Besides, what fills the soul gem when you kill the soul trapped draugr? And don't tell me about the occultic view on the subject - I've studied it for some time, but I doubt Beth guys did the same. So the question is simple: does a draugr have a soul or not?

Flling soul gems tells that he does.

A ghost is a form of spirit but it isn't their soul. Also most Draugr probably have their soul in them, maybe.


Furthermore, being able to fill a soul gem is more of a gameplay mechanic then it is a lore one.

You can capture a Falmer's soul in a normal soul gem, as if they were creatures, when they're technically not creatures, and thus would have black souls that would require a black soul gem to capture.

Also like how you can capture Logrolf the Willful's soul at the end of Molag Ball's quest despite the assertion that Molag Ball took it.

Well, like Isaid, I'm not very interested in Bethesda's excuses to justify their mismatches. Call it retcon or otherwise.

It really isn't an excuse, its an unavoidable fact of making long series such as this.

Everyone from Gene Roddenberry, to Tolkien, to Bethesda, has had to change something they said in a previous episode, book, game.

Furthermore they changed stuff also because it made the story more fun, and that is what they set out to do, make a fun story. I doubt Tolkien would have given two damns about changing some things in the Lord of the Rings Universe if it made the story more fun in some future book.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 24 May 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[landy8]

A ghost is a form of spirit but it isn't their soul. Also most Draugr probably have their soul in them, maybe.

Furthermore, being able to fill a soul gem is more of a gameplay mechanic then it is a lore one.

But you can't caprute a soul of any dwemer automation.

And about ghost and spirtis... Well, I could tell you a long tale of higher and lower astral bodies and what happens to them after death, but like I said, I doubt Beth guys are versed in occultism.

It really isn't an excuse, its an unavoidable fact of making long series such as this.

Sorry, but I think in this case it's just it - excuse. Do you really think that the "ISLAND of Alcaire" mentioned in some book 75% of players would simply miss is somewhat "more fun" than the simple "Alcaire"? As for the river - examine the map more closely. Did that river start in the sea and end in the sea? Well, in my country (real one) there is one river starting in the lake, but I've never heared of a river that flows FROM the sea!

I guess the real case was:
Beth guy that wrote the "island kingdom of Alkaire" asks some other Beth guy old enough to remember the Daggerfall times:
- Hey, tell me some country name from chapter 2.
- Hmmm... Alcaire!
- Okay, thanks.

And so the island kingdom of Alcaire appears! Why island? It sounded better, and the guy that wrote it didn't even care to check.

Look, I like RPGs (and TES especially), I like fiction, I even w... oops, sorry, it was nothing!
But I don't like it when writers are contradicting themselves. It seems a careless work for me.

BTW, I don't remember any major mismatches in Tolkien's works. At least, he never called Nargothrond an island kingdom in the Lord of the Rings!

[sajuukkhar9000]

But you can't caprute a soul of any dwemer automation.

And about ghost and spirtis... Well, I could tell you a long tale of higher and lower astral bodies and what happens to them after death, but like I said, I doubt Beth guys are versed in occultism.

So? Dwemer machines are things that would obviously have no soul, or spirit, or ghost.

Well real-world occultism is entirely meaningless when talking about the ES universe because the ES universe obviously does not share the same principals as ours in terms of both physics, or spirituality.

Sorry, but I think in this case it's just it - excuse. Do you really think that the "ISLAND of Alcaire" mentioned in some book 75% of players would simply miss is somewhat "more fun" than the simple "Alcaire"? As for the river - examine the map more closely. Did that river start in the sea and end in the sea? Well, in my country (real one) there is one river starting in the lake, but I've never heared of a river that flows FROM the sea!

I guess the real case was:
Beth guy that wrote the "island kingdom of Alkaire" asks some other Beth guy old enough to remember the Daggerfall times:
- Hey, tell me some country name from chapter 2.
- Hmmm... Alcaire!
- Okay, thanks.

And so the island kingdom of Alcaire appears! Why island? It sounded better, and the guy that wrote it didn't even care to check.

Look, I like RPGs (and TES especially), I like fiction, I even w... oops, sorry, it was nothing!
But I don't like it when writers are contradicting themselves. It seems a careless work for me.

BTW, I don't remember any major mismatches in Tolkien's works. At least, he never called Nargothrond an island kingdom in the Lord of the Rings!

Calling Alcaire a island nation is not anything major, it is, if anything, so minor it's pointless.

Furthermore I never implied that Tolkien made any BIG mistakes, just that he wouldn't be against changing some small thing in his story, much like the infinitely trivial change of Alcaire from being a part of the mainland to being a Island.

Also calling Alcaire an island does make the story better because it sounds like a remote puissant nation, that most people dont know about, and makes Tiber's rise from Hjalti into Tiber more epic sounding then if they said 'he was some normal guy in a really rich prosperous nation that rose to power".



Also if you dont like writers contradicting themselves then you must not like any writer that has written more then one book in a series, because I can guarantee there is at least ONE thing that doesn't match up with what they previously said.

It has nothing to do with being careless, it has to do with them not being able to remember every small and trivial detail they ever stated in a past work in a many chaptered series.

It is as unreasonable to expect them to remember such small things, as it is to expect the director of a TV show to remember every piece of dialog ever written for the show he is directing. It's so silly and tiny mistakes like that take away nothing from the overall enjoyment of the series because only the most hardcore Lore buffs you have spent way to much time looking over every detail with a magnifying glass would cacth it.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 24 May 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[landy8]

Calling Alcaire a island nation is not anything major, it is, if anything, so minor it's pointless.

Agreed. It annoyed me just because I used to live there.

Also calling Alcaire an island does make the story better because it sounds like a remote puissant nation, that most people dont know about, and makes Tiber's rise from Hjalti into Tiber more epic sounding then if they said 'he was some normal guy in a really rich prosperous nation that rose to power".

BTW, in Daggerfall almost every city of Alcaire had a bank (or two) and a jewelry shop. That's why I preferred to settle there.

Also if you dont like writers contradicting themselves then you must not like any writer that has written more then one book in a series, because I can guarantee there is at least ONE thing that doesn't match up with what they previously said.

It has nothing to do with being careless, it has to do with them not being able to remember every small and trivial detail they ever stated in a past work in a many chaptered series.

Well, I could agree to that, but I don't think the geography is some "small and trivial detail". BTW, Tolkien created maps of his world, and in the Silmarillion there's a whole chapter about Beleriand's geography.

[sajuukkhar9000]

BTW, in Daggerfall almost every city of Alcaire had a bank (or two) and a jewelry shop. That's why I preferred to settle there.

Well nothing in Daggerfall besides the main plot is canon, the random generation of the map makes everything about the towns and such just gameplay and not lore.

Well, I could agree to that, but I don't think the geography is some "small and trivial detail". BTW, Tolkien created maps of his world, and in the Silmarillion there's a whole chapter about Beleriand's geography.

Geography in terms of what is the shape of the continent, or were is Skyrim is, is important, but something like drawing a river around the land parts of Alcaire to separate it from the mainland really isn't.

And Tolkien revised his maps several times, making alteration to them as he desired at the time.

[landy8]

Well nothing in Daggerfall besides the main plot is canon, the random generation of the map makes everything about the towns and such just gameplay and not lore.

Shop, bank, guld hall and castle locations were fixed in Daggerfall. As well as the houses. Some houses' owners were random, true. But some countries had their specialities. Alcaire's speciality was jewelry. Banks were just an effect.

[landy8]

etang2, sorry.

I think we've got far from the initial question.

[landy8]

By the way, Paarthurnax tells you that there WAS a dragon captured in Dragonsreach by the Whiteru jarl. Balgruuf tells that jarl was Olaf, and dragon was Numinex. Well, bards could convince jarl, but I doubt they could convince old Paarthurnax.