516 replies to this topic

[landy8]

Well, I had expected to have a relatively friendly debate with people, but I guess you and landy8 prefer to be rude and insulting and petulant rather than factual because someone didn't agree with your opinion. Sad to see.

Sorry, but I'm so tired to post facts prooving that Ulfric is not a racist, and to see some shortly afterwards posting something like "Ulfric is just a racist piece of s****"! If this has ever talked to any Thalmor, he must understand who's the real racist in Skyrim.

National or racial dislikings differ from racism very much. In real a number of nations have... unpleasant relationship with some other nations, but only nazi declared themselves a Master Race and built pretty places like Auschwitz.

[landy8]

o.O

Last few pages are a lot more hostile and dismissive (and annoyingly so) from both the pro-Stormcloak and pro-Imperial crowds than I think the topic really warrants... Felt like every other post I was reading was a veiled insult at the other side. Not a particularly harsh one, but not particularly friendly, either.

I'm sorry. Really.
There was a long topic called "Was Ulfric right to kill the High King?", where this discussion became very harsh, there was a number of another topics. So no surprise that this harshness migrated here. There was a damn lot of spears broken on this matter, but some guys and gals still feel some strength left in them. Like myself. Though my strength is surely vaning.

BTW, thanks for a good mod.

[fraquar]

Pretty sure Jarl Balgruuf is doing no more about bandits occupying nearly the entire plains of Whiterun hold than Ulfric is in Windhelm. Worse yet, Balgruuf is letting them squat in the largest Iron mine in all of Skyrim.

Bandits flourish everywhere when a Civil War occupies the landscape - doesn't make Ulfric worse than any other Jarl in that regard.

Not sure I'd site that as a fact.

While I do not disagree that there are lots of bandits in the game, two things in the game suggest that Balgruuf is concerned and does do something about the bandits. Not that he is perfect, but he does something about them and has concern for his citizens.

Balgruuf has his steward offer bounties to clear the bandits through a number of radiant quests. He at least does something.

Speaking with Brunwulf (a citizen of Winterhold) he will tell you Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits.
While a radiant quest for a bounty for bandits can be gained from Windhelm, they are only available after Ulfric is dead and Brunwulf becomes Jarl.
Ulfric does nothing about the bandits.

I don't know about you, but someone who is at least trying is better than someone who could care less and certainly does not care about anyone who is not a Nord.

Are their any non-Nords supporting the war? Only thing I ever hear from non-Nords is "this isn't our war" - so good then fight your own petty squabbles while everyone else is out fighting in the war.

This is a Nord land, it's not a welfare state.

If you haven't realized, the guards need help just solving crime inside their own city walls.

Edited by fraquar, 03 June 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[trukittn]

Well, I had expected to have a relatively friendly debate with people, but I guess you and landy8 prefer to be rude and insulting and petulant rather than factual because someone didn't agree with your opinion. Sad to see.

What? You got a weird definition friendly debate, considerin' your initial post on this topic. But I apologize if my response hit a nerve or somethin', it wasn't written with hostility, I promise.

...Speaking with Brunwulf (a citizen of Winterhold) he will tell you Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits.While a radiant quest for a bounty for bandits can be gained from Windhelm, they are only available after Ulfric is dead and Brunwulf becomes Jarl.Ulfric does nothing about the bandits.I don't know about you, but someone who is at least trying is better than someone who could care less and certainly does not care about anyone who is not a Nord.

And this is what I'm talking about. It's just not so. I've done countless bounties for Ulfric, clearing out bandits, giants and dragons that are terrorizing Eastmarch. Same as any other Jarl puts out. In fact, I prefer to return to him instead of Jorleif just to hear him thank me personally. And that stuff about only helping Nords? You can either believe what Brunwulf and the more bitter of the dark elves say, or what actually happens in game. I've been sent to kill giants that had khajiit and dunmer corpses roasting by their fires, and clear out bandit groups comprised totally of Nords.

But, just in case you don't believe me, I'll upload a screenshot I took of one such outing some time ago in my game where a Dunmer's demise via giant had been avenged. I even had Ulfric himself with me. Now if only I could show this screenshot to those knuckleheads in the gray quarter.

[landy8]

And this is what I'm talking about. It's just not so. I've done countless bounties for Ulfric, clearing out bandits, giants and dragons that are terrorizing Eastmarch. Same as any other Jarl puts out. In fact, I prefer to return to him instead of Jorleif just to hear him thank me personally. And that stuff about only helping Nords? You can either believe what Brunwulf and the more bitter of the dark elves say, or what actually happens in game. I've been sent to kill giants that had khajiit and dunmer corpses roasting by their fires, and clear out bandit groups comprised totally of Nords.

Sadly, I think you're vasting your breath, trukittn. No matter how many arguements you post, some people prefer to think by cliches.
I hear general Tullius naming Ulfric a traitor at the beginning of the game. Ulfric is a traitor. Check.
I hear general Tullius claiming that Ulfric murdered a High King. Ulfric is a murderer. Check.
I enter Windhelm and see some thugs harassing a Dunmer girl. Ulfric is a racist. Check.
I find Ulfric's dossier in the Thalmor embassy (and don't even bother to read it carefully). Ulfric is a Thalmor agent. Check.
And so on.

It always amuses me when some people accuse Ulfric of separatism, and the very same people blame Ulfric for defeating the Forsworn (true separatists). Not to mention the racism accusations despite the fact that Ulfric is Thalmor's enemy, he hates Thalmor, he was even imprisoned by Thalmor! Does anyone think he was fed with sweetrolls and spiced wine there?

[imperistan]

scrdest~ At best, Stormcloak victory would result in Talos worship being allowed, deterring the total apocalypse. But assuming they win, throw the Thalmor out and all - what next? The Dominion is not just going to let them be, they want to stamp out Talos worship. With the Empire getting kicked out of Skyrim, they have no reason to go and help Ulfric if Skyrim gets invaded by the Dominion. Well, if the Emperor decides it might be good in the long run, Skyrim would just get reclaimed by the Empire, at least in parts.

Skyrim can't get invaded by the Dominion. Its a physical and tactical impossibility unless we're talking 50-75 years down the road. (and Skyrim would be on the warpath well before then)

but at the end of the day, we should look at this in the scope of Tamriel as a whole, not just Skyrim, and how to defeat the Talmor, the true enemies of freedom.

And the continued Empire is going to divide Tamriel no matter what. It's past actions and crumbling national structure have condemned it to this. Tamriel needs new leadership. The Mede Empire isn't it.

Ulfric is a piece of slime and the worst kind of leader.

Yeah, thats totally going by the facts right there. Fairly ironic that you talk about looking at the facts then you spew a bunch of emotionally charged, unsubstantiated claims, several of which have already been disproven or were never even doubted to be untrue in the first place. I could devote a topic to how wrong your post is. Just wow.

Well, I had expected to have a relatively friendly debate with people, but I guess you and landy8 prefer to be rude and insulting and petulant rather than factual because someone didn't agree with your opinion. Sad to see.

You can't exactly expect a friendly response to what you posted when pretty much all of it was factually wrong and based in pure emotion. If you'd prefer, I'd love to dissect it and prove everything you said wrong, but again, thats material for a whole new topic for how long that post is going to be.

While I do not disagree that there are lots of bandits in the game, two things in the game suggest that Balgruuf is concerned and does do something about the bandits. Not that he is perfect, but he does something about them and has concern for his citizens.

Balgruuf has his steward offer bounties to clear the bandits through a number of radiant quests. He at least does something.

Speaking with Brunwulf (a citizen of Winterhold) he will tell you Ulfric refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits.
While a radiant quest for a bounty for bandits can be gained from Windhelm, they are only available after Ulfric is dead and Brunwulf becomes Jarl.
Ulfric does nothing about the bandits.

So a pure gameplay element, one that I"m not even sure is supposed to work that way, is evidence against Ulfric. -Okay-

It's also good to note that the territory Windhelm rules over isn't actually filled with many bandits. Its got more animals and rogue mages than anything else in it. (look at the Map of Skyrim and see the boundaries of Eastmarch Hold. That entire area has a relative few bandits compared to the other Holds)

On the contrary. I do know what is going on in Cyrodiil and I'm aware of the state of the Empire.

Indeed. There are several sources on whats going on around the rest of the Empire if you just look for them. Its also quite legitimate to speculate given the information from a lot of these sources.

[Stemin]

On the contrary. I do know what is going on in Cyrodiil and I'm aware of the state of the Empire.

Cicero in his journal and in dialogue states that Cyrodiil is in a state of chaos as a result of drug wars. The Dark Brotherhood has been destroyed there as a result (and the DB isn't/wasn't a helpless faction).

The current situation of the entire Empire isn't looking to good either. Cyrodiil is in chaos (Cicero), Skyrim is in a civil war (game) and High Rock, form what little I know of its current situation, has been attacked by Corsairs (Cicero) (Or at the very least, Wayrest has fallen to them), and Morrowind has still not recovered from the Red Year and the Argonian invasion.

Typical. You have one source, from someone who is insane to boot, and that validates your point.

Are you reading this Tydus? I told you it's a waste of time.

[Tidus44]

On the contrary. I do know what is going on in Cyrodiil and I'm aware of the state of the Empire.

Cicero in his journal and in dialogue states that Cyrodiil is in a state of chaos as a result of drug wars. The Dark Brotherhood has been destroyed there as a result (and the DB isn't/wasn't a helpless faction).

The current situation of the entire Empire isn't looking to good either. Cyrodiil is in chaos (Cicero), Skyrim is in a civil war (game) and High Rock, form what little I know of its current situation, has been attacked by Corsairs (Cicero) (Or at the very least, Wayrest has fallen to them), and Morrowind has still not recovered from the Red Year and the Argonian invasion.

Typical. You have one source, from someone who is insane to boot, and that validates your point.

Are you reading this Tydus? I told you it's a waste of time.

Yeah, I have to agree.
It’s just sad that some people are just so intolerant of other opinions and need to rely upon personal attacks rather than free discussion. I do believe I will not be visiting or posting to this thread again as people’s emotions are running very high over what is, after all, just a game and not actually about anything real, and not worth getting banned over.

[imperistan]

On the contrary. I do know what is going on in Cyrodiil and I'm aware of the state of the Empire.

Cicero in his journal and in dialogue states that Cyrodiil is in a state of chaos as a result of drug wars. The Dark Brotherhood has been destroyed there as a result (and the DB isn't/wasn't a helpless faction).

The current situation of the entire Empire isn't looking to good either. Cyrodiil is in chaos (Cicero), Skyrim is in a civil war (game) and High Rock, form what little I know of its current situation, has been attacked by Corsairs (Cicero) (Or at the very least, Wayrest has fallen to them), and Morrowind has still not recovered from the Red Year and the Argonian invasion.

Typical. You have one source, from someone who is insane to boot, and that validates your point.

Are you reading this Tydus? I told you it's a waste of time.

Yes, because someone is totally going to hallucinate or just totally make up something so specific as that. And its certainly not rediculously easy to find out what else is going on from a multitude of other sources.

Not to mention that I've yet to see you actually disprove what Cicero says, nor really bring anything to the table other than a dismissal that means nothing.

It’s just sad that some people are just so intolerant of other opinions and need to rely upon personal attacks rather than free discussion. I do believe I will not be visiting or posting to this thread again as people’s emotions are running very high over what is, after all, just a game and not actually about anything real, and not worth getting banned over.

How very hypocritical of you.

Edited by imperistan, 03 June 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[kaindjinn]

Whoa whoa whoa, people! I made this thread to help me decide which faction to join, not to have it turn into mud slinging within 48 hours! Let's just stick with the facts here. For example, if a source is not credible, discuss why it isn't, rather than call someone intolerant or stupid or hypocritical. Keep it friendly!