516 replies to this topic

[MacSuibhne]

Sad?! I don't understand...these guys were happy when the baseless charges of racism were the atrocite' du jour and few had the temerity to challenge them.

They were drinking wine and slapping each other on the back when misreading and mis-interpreting the Thalmor dossiers was par for the course.

When ignoring the Thalmor patrols, and the Thalmor prisons and torture chambers...in Skyrim...was relegated to the status of "so what".

When, by any objective criteria, biased hearsay was the standard for evidence.

Bethesda created this conundrum...intentionally. It is an exercise in situational ethics. It is a conflict between emotion and rationality; between empiricism and supposition; between "wish and know". It leaves the player with the prospect of a nasty war and an uncertain future (but one not entirely devoid of hope) or a temporary peace that foreshadows much worse...perhaps even the genocidal extermination of all non-Altmer...in the long term.

It sets up a dichotomy between the virtues of resistance to tyranny and those of appeasement.

And the player is asked to choose...

It's an age-old question...one perfectly exemplified by the excerpt from the Declaration of Independence in post #15 this thread.

If the game sets up this conflict, why should these forums ignore it? Or expect to be exempt?

Edited by MacSuibhne, 03 June 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Stemin]

Whoa whoa whoa, people! I made this thread to help me decide which faction to join, not to have it turn into mud slinging within 48 hours! Let's just stick with the facts here. For example, if a source is not credible, discuss why it isn't, rather than call someone intolerant or stupid or hypocritical. Keep it friendly!

And how do you intend to decide whether the arguments presented are from credible sources if you haven't played the game enough to valid any of this information?

[Wintercross]

I chose my own way in a sense; Jinn Alcras belives in the Empire, but he hates the Thalmor.

Result: I supported the Empire, but did my darn best to thawt the Thalmor at every turn. If I come across justicars, I kill them and let the stormcloak prisoners free; better to live and die in battle than to rot in a thalmor jail is what Jinn thinks.

At the end of the day, I couldn't see much in Ulfric. He's charismatic yes, but despite all his talk of honour and justice he is a cruel and petty man. He could have defeated the high king without using the voice, he was the better warrior. Yet he deliberatly used a power he knew the king had no defence against just for shock value and to big note himself.

I support the Empire, they may look like they're bowing to the Thalmor, but it is obvious that it is just a tactical choice to consolidate power before breaking free.
If anything, a united Empire is a stronger Empire. A isolationist Skyrim is going to have a lot of trouble.

[kaindjinn]

And how do you intend to decide whether the arguments presented are from credible sources if you haven't played the game enough to valid any of this information?

I obviously can't, but I can tell when someone's being an a**hole versus a civil debater. (I'm not calling you an a**hole, I'm speaking generally.)

Edited by kaindjinn, 03 June 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Stemin]

I obviously can't, but I can tell when someone's being an a**hole versus a civil debater. (I'm not calling you an a**hole, I'm speaking generally.)

Agreed, but just because they're civil doesn't make them right. Personally like I told Tidus, it's easier just to stay out of it and not argue with people when they want to put a spin on everything.

You're far better off putting the main quest and civil war quest off for a while, talking to people, and forming your own opinions.

Edited by Stemin, 03 June 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[fraquar]

I can't see a reason to join the Imperials from the moment I am pushed down onto the headsmans block - no matter what race I'm playing.

It's sad everyone wants to make this about Ulfric, it's not - it's much bigger than him.

[kaindjinn]

You're far better off putting the main quest and civil war quest off for a while, talking to people, and forming your own opinions.

That's the idea. There's still the entire Dark Brotherhood, Companions, Bard's College and Winterhold College questlines before I tackle the main quests. (Ben the Spectacular gets around.)

[kevkiev]

Even after reading the various opinions here, I'm still torn about which side to join. I'd really like to get the last Slow Time word, so that means I'll have to decide sooner or later (I really wish Beth hadn't put word walls in Civil War or TG locations but... oh well.)

You know, not to get into arguments about lore and who has the best chance to beat the Thalmor etc., one of the things (maybe actually the main thing) that makes me hesitant to join the stormcloaks is the relationship my char built with Elisif and her court by doing a bunch of favours for them and, as a result, kinda bonding with them. Not a ton of stuff I guess, but considering there isn't much character development in this game, that little goes a long way. Elisif seems inexperienced, but a pretty decent person at heart. It'll be tough to betray her. And, having played the imperials last time and meeting Ritke, (Rittke? Ritkke?... whatever) it'll be really tough to kill her (which I'm assuming is necessary on the stormcloak side). I thought she was pretty cool and, as I mentioned before, a Thalmor-hater at heart. Ulfric's right hand man, on the other hand, seems like a bit of a prat. (Tulius... well, I'd have no problem off'n that dude.)

My char just doesn't have that personal connection with any stormcloak-types as compared to imperial-types.

Okay, so I killed Elisif's friend (I'm imagining they were friends) on her wedding day. And, yeah, I'll may even kill her Emperor too.... okay, maybe some logical inconsistencies there. (But, hey, my char really wanted a cool horse and she loves sneaking around posh boats!)

[kibblesticks]

Empire:
I think the empire needs to kiss and make up with Hammerfell since they managed to hold off the Aldmeri Dominion all on their lonesome for a number of years. The empire also needs to try and get the Khajiit back on-side. Elsewyr only joined with the Altmer because they believe the Dominion brought back the moons. If the empire began a campaign of Propaganda suggesting this was not the case then more khajiit may begin to re-evaluate their current alliance. Besides, after a few years under Aldmeri control, the Khajiit have got to be feeling the pressure of the altmer's racist regime by now right? Declaring war on the Dominion would also bring most of the Stormcloaks on board. With Hammerfell protecting the west, the impenetrable Blackmarsh guarding the East, Skyrim under control, and the khajiit on the fence, the empire could focus it's attention on defending against Valenwood and the Summerset Isles.

Stormcloaks:
It already having been established that Ulfric is a tool of the Aldmeri Dominion (or was, he isn't now I know), the only logical outcome of a Stormcloak victory is a weakened Empire, just as the Thalmor intended. This will inevitably lead to the defeat of man at the hands of the mer. The Stormcloaks are just reactionists who don't think about the consequences of their actions. The Stormcloaks can't even beat the Imperials on their home turf and they don't have the support of the general population. What chance do they have against the Dominion?

Plus, on a moral note, if you back the Stormcloaks you're simply chosing one racial-orientated (far less extreme admittedly) army over another. This is based on a number of things in game, not least of which is the constant Nordic distrust of Khajiit and Dunmer, and common lines like "Skyrim belongs to the Nords". The Imperials are the only power to have proved to be accepting of all races and cultures.

[MacSuibhne]

I came to these discussions ...and these kinds of discussions...for the same reason. I had some attachments to people on both sides--I like Lydia. I rescued the Grey-Mane brother for his mother. I hate Riften and everything it stands for. I like Balgruf (what I've seen of him) and I esp. like the old lady--the Jarl--in Morthal.

I wanted some insight.

But in every one of these discussions there's someone who is going to bombard you with accusations that Ulfric is a racist despite there being no...zero...indication that he actively supports any law, statute, writ or even opinion the intent of which is to persecute, harass badger or purposefully demean any race. And some meaningful evidence that it's simply a non-issue with him. All the rest of the nearly hysterical vilification--numerous variations on "arrogant" "scumbag", 'pr*ck" etc.--is simply people venting their "feelings".

There will be someone who tells you that supporting the Empire is in the best interests of Skyrim nevermind that the Empire entered into a demeaning and subservient treaty with the Thalmor--who consider Men to be not much better than beasts (that's in the Lore), and who would like nothing better that to wipe all races except the Altmer off the face of Tamriel (also in the Lore, IIRC).

People pile onto the notion that those attitudes don't matter and would like nothing better than to make everyone forget that there are Thalmor soldiers and "political officers" patrolling Skyrim and arresting, torturing, and beheading citizens with no pretense of a trial or even Imperial justice (such as it is). Your own character was probably a victim of one of those Imperially sanctioned, Thalmor sweeps.

You were lucky...most are not.

People will tell you that the Empire is in the best long term interests of Skyrim because it gives the Empire the time to regroup and gather its strength. Again asking people to pretend that the Thalmor is not also regrouping and regaining its strength...with the added advantage of spies and agents and provocateurs inside Skyrim compiling data about the strength, morale and disposition of Imperial troops. Learning the lay of the land...and slowly, slowly tightening their control of civic and legal affairs.

I could go on (and have). But I honestly and sincerely had no bias one way or the other until I came to these forums and saw what substitutes for logic and evidence among Imperial supporters.

I haven't chosen sides yet. But the more I see of the...what can only be called "sophistry" and self-congratulation...of those who will not, cannot, make a convincing case, either for further collusion and appeasement of the Empire/Dominion, or against Ulfric, the closer I get to throwing in with the Rebellion.

Sometimes...esp. in a video game where you can always reload...it really is "better to die on your feet than live on your knees". If nothing else it helps people get used to the idea.

If this were RL, I would hope and wish that I had the personal courage to resist oppression and tyranny and not take the easy, safe way out.

Sorry for the long post...

Edited by MacSuibhne, 03 June 2012 - 06:59 PM.