34 replies to this topic

[Mofakin]

Why does it necessarily have to be the same ambush that Ralof and Ulfrics men got cought in?

According to this map there is a street moving south from Riften to Cyrodill. I think it's likely this is where the Stormcloak party went. Later in game you will learn that Ulfric was about to go to the Imperial City in order to threaten the Emperor. So, before crossing the border they got ambushed at Darkwater Crossing. In the midth of Stormcloak territory? Sure why not, the Empire is everywhere. I assume they then have taken a route between the Morrowind and Skyrim nomansland, south to Cyrodill. Once they'd reached Cyrodill, they turned west in direction of Pale Pass and then going North to Helgen where Ulfric was about to be executed. Ralof said he thought they were going to be paraded in front of the Emperor, but ended in Helgen, so at some point of the transport, they must have taken a direction to the IC.

The player was likely to be captured at pale pass as he tried to cross the border. This doesn't necessarily mean he'd crossed the same border as Ulfrics men. It's just said, or lets say, assumed by Ralof, that the player tried to cross a border. Well did the player tried to cross a border? How exactly did the captured Stormcloaks know that the player was also ambushed? Wasn't he just caught crossing a border? Why should the Empire set up an ambush for the player? What about the horse thief? It's likely he was in vicinity of the player, as they booth wear the same clothes. Was the player just a vagabond, the same as the horse thief? Something must have dragged the player into direction of Skyrim, most likely it was Akatosh, or any of the Daedra. I think the horse thief and the player just got collected by the Empire on their way into Skyrim, when the Empire was about to ship Ulfrics men to Helgen.

Edited by Mofakin, 16 June 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[BS375]

first THX for the map link. Nice one never see it.
But did you see the second road where i didn´t see it, ingame.
and necessariy ? mhh, we talk about and try to make some more sence to this what we hear at the beginnig! or not?

[AssyMcGee]

I think I can answer these questions with a vague summary of things that may not have actually been said by anyone.

Yes you were captured trying to cross in Skyrim, why, well that's up to you to decide.

Yes Ulfric and his men were captured at Darkwater Crossing, I don't remember who said it, but someone did.

From what I can remember Rika, or Tulius himself, had said they had planned on taking Ulfric to Solitude to face justice, but with the leader of the Stormcloak rebellion captured they'd never make it clear across Skyrim so they decided to head towards Cyrodiil. If you look at the map you'll notice it's closer to Cyrodiil and the strength of the Empire than it is across Skyrim. Supposedly Tullius had changed his mind and ordered the wagons to Helgen. This could have been Tullius or an order from the Thalmor, if you look you can see him talking to the Thalmor Ambassador in Helgen before the execution. I'm assuming this happened at Pale Pass at the border, this is how you were captured. And I suppose it makes sense for your imprisonment, with such a high priority target in custody you won't take any chances with anyone, even a one legged Argonian who claims to be a traveling chef.

That's why you go to Helgen to get processed, but the Female officer there is a jerk and doesn't want to any extra paper work so executes you with the wagon load of traitors. Also I suppose it's a bit of a poetic triumph for the Imperials. Ulfric will die in Helgen, a city overlooking the land he fought to free. Every Nords last thoughts should be of home.

[sukeban]

Does Ralof specify the Eastmarch border? I only remember him saying "crossing the border," but I could be wrong.

There is also the dialogue with Ralof (never escaped with Hadvar) where you say "Who's Ulfric Stormcloak?" and he says something like "What, certainly they have heard about Ulfric even down in Cyrodiil!"

But yeah, this question bugged me for quite a bit. No matter how you slice it, the Imperial ambush took place well inside Stormcloak territory... talk about Special Ops.

Looking at a map, I just sort of imagined that the PC transited the Cyrodiil border, likely from the near-Riften gate. From there, they probably followed the road south from Riften until they more or less hit DC. In the intro sequence, you're definitely on the DC --> Ivarstead --> Helgen road, even though you're only shown from about the Clavicus Vile cave area.

Or they just messed up and recorded the dialogue, subsequently changed the intro, and then couldn't get the voice actors back to record the new scenario.

Looking at the map again, there are Imperial field camps near where there opening cut scene starts as well as more or less on the Morrowind border in Eastmarch. Perhaps the ambush troops were supposed to have come from either of these places?

[Relativelybest]

How exactly did the captured Stormcloaks know that the player was also ambushed? Wasn't he just caught crossing a border? Why should the Empire set up an ambush for the player? What about the horse thief? It's likely he was in vicinity of the player, as they booth wear the same clothes. Was the player just a vagabond, the same as the horse thief? Something must have dragged the player into direction of Skyrim, most likely it was Akatosh, or any of the Daedra. I think the horse thief and the player just got collected by the Empire on their way into Skyrim, when the Empire was about to ship Ulfrics men to Helgen.

Actually, Ralof really does make it sound like he was there when the PC was captured and that it was the same ambush that they were captured in. He specifically says: "You were trying to cross the border and walked straight into that imperial ambush, same as that horse thief."

It mostly sounds like the PC kinda blundered into the ambush the imperials set up for the Stormcloaks, and then the imperials pretty much arrested everone indiscriminately figuring they'd sort it out later. (Or, as it turns out, kill everyone and let the Divines sort them out.) That's probably why you're not even on the execution list.

[BS375]

First THx for the hint.
Now i know what you mean. I start new game today and i sided with stromcloak´s . ( clean start).
I can´t use that door befor, only the door whit hadvar i could use. Strange it cost me over a 1 min befor i enter it.

[Stemin]

From what I can remember Rika, or Tulius himself, had said they had planned on taking Ulfric to Solitude to face justice, but with the leader of the Stormcloak rebellion captured they'd never make it clear across Skyrim so they decided to head towards Cyrodiil. If you look at the map you'll notice it's closer to Cyrodiil and the strength of the Empire than it is across Skyrim. Supposedly Tullius had changed his mind and ordered the wagons to Helgen.

If the above information is correct and explained in game, then it's likely that the reason they stopped at Helgen was Thalmor intervention. If you read the Dossier, it's evident that Elewen attempted to intervene and get Ulfric's death sentence lowered (likely to break him out later). You can see the Thalmor talking to Tulius during the opening scene.

The dossier explains that his death would ruin their plans:

http://www.uesp.net/...fric_Stormcloak

Personally if I wake up in a wagon with two rebels and a horsethief, with no memories and all of us are on our way to be beheaded, I would assume I did something wrong, and I wouldn't be inclined to believe known criminals.

[dragonslayer2k12]

I can't stand how every single elderscrolls game starts off with the PC in jail or in trouble. The beginning should be different based on who you start out as. Maybe a nord would get this beginning but not an imperial, Starting out as an imperial should give you a spot on the specops team that captures ulfric so you can see the whole thing from a different perspective. You could still end up in helgen, just that you would be standing next to some officer or whatever watching the executions instead of being part of them. Starting out as something else like breton or lizard you don't even see that whole thing just you wake up in a bed at an inn somewhere but that would only work if the game allowed you to live another life besides dragonborn.

[BrettM]

Starting out as something else like breton or lizard you don't even see that whole thing just you wake up in a bed at an inn somewhere but that would only work if the game allowed you to live another life besides dragonborn.

It would work out fine for a dragonborn if you woke up in the inn at Helgen just as the prisoners arrived.

[BS375]

And a ask is what did we do to become a criminal? Did we lost our memoris because there hit us to hard ?
Mhh what sort of crime did we do? I don´t have the feeling to be a criminal, but everybody see us as a criminal.
Should it be a akt of crime to enter Skyrim? Or did i flee befor the Thalmor from (as bretone) Daggerfall to Cyrodiil and when to skyrim? (sound like a new story, a backround story, ? mhh or did we seek some body??? The idea captivates since days!! Bur not now)

And yes his Death would ruin the plan from the Thalmor.