138 replies to this topic

[Stemin]

I let him live every time. Cicero was pretty understandably pissed when he attacked Arnbjorn. The Dark Brotherhood under Astrid wasn't really the Dark Brotherhood anymore. As Keeper, Cicero was the most senior member of the Brotherhood when he arrived (not asking for much but a new home) and Astrid had pretty completely betrayed what the Brotherhood was supposed to be by that point. Cicero may have been a sort of traditionalist when it came to Dark Brotherhood policies, but he was hardly the only one there that was like that (Festus and Gabriella both were). Astrid and Arnbjorn would openly insult the Night Mother right in front of him and treat him terribly despite all he'd been through. Cicero attacked Astrid because she claimed higher authority than than the Night Mother, but the Night Mother wasn't exercising any real authority and neither was the Dragonborn (he received information on a single contract that would make them rich and influential again), an assassin should always know when to keep quiet.

With every character I've played thus far, I've always wanted to kill Astrid from the first time she mentioned the abandoning of The Five Tents, they are such basic and obvious rules that it's pretty stupid to get rid of them. Even if you don't actually intend to follow them, it's also a pretty stupid thing to admit that to people you want to trust you. They're not all that restrictive.

Tenet 1: Never dishonor the Night Mother. To do so is to invoke the Wrath of Sithis.

• You can't be a very good assassin or member of an assassins guild if you can't control yourself enough to not dishonor the Night Mother. It's not like she's a terribly ethical psuedo-dead woman, this tenet pretty much amounts to "watch your mouth". It's a good way to get rid of anyone who can't be trusted.

Tenet 2: Never betray the Dark Brotherhood or its secrets. To do so is to invoke the Wrath of Sithis.

• This one should be incredibly obvious, to abandon this tenet is to indicate you aren't actually loyal to the Dark Brotherhood and you aren't smart enough to keep that a secret. A betrayal from someone who openly refuses this tenet should be expected.

Tenet 3: Never disobey or refuse to carry out an order from a Dark Brotherhood superior. To do so is to invoke the Wrath of Sithis.

• This one should be obvious to anyone in an organization with a lateral structure, you follow the chain of command. With no Listener or Speakers until the Dragonborn came along and Astrid being the most senior member of the Brotherhood it doesn't make sense to get rid of this one. She still sort of kept it as long as she was considered at the top (making her word the law of the Brotherhood). It doesn't really make sense to get rid of when the Night Mother's Listener either wasn't around or hasn't made any demands of her and could fully legitimize her as a leader of the Dark Brotherhood by naming her a Speaker. If she wanted her own Sanctuary back largely the way it was she could have just asked for it, and the Listener and Cicero could have just taken the Night Mother to the Dawnstar Sanctuary.

Tenet 4: Never steal the possessions of a Dark Brother or Dark Sister. To do so is to invoke the Wrath of Sithis.

• This tenet... really Astrid? You can't be trusted to not steal the belongings of other members when they turn their back on you? Gotta wonder what she was stealing or planning to steal, skimming quite a bit from the payments for contracts I've always assumed. Gabrielle even mentions how unusual it is for her to allow anyone else to handle one when the Dragonborn is being sent to arrange a contract with Muiri.

Tenet 5: Never kill a Dark Brother or Dark Sister. To do so is to invoke the Wrath of Sithis.

• The reasons for not abandoning this one should also be pretty obvious. Aside from the fact that somebody can just be kicked out of the Dark Brotherhood before they're killed, if you aren't following the religious aspects of the order related to Sithis this one amounts to "don't get caught killing a Dark Brother or Dark Sister", as an assassin this should be a given for any kill the may bring a negative response on the killer.

Screw that. The Dark Brotherhood was done. Cicero was fleeing from the last Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary in the Empire. Astrid kept the guild alive by doing what's necessary. Adapting. Things that don't change die. Where was Sithis or the Night Mother when Maro was wiping them out?

You want to follow the old ways, be my guest, but don't hate on Astrid for doing what's necessary to survive.

[AnkhAscendant]

Screw that. The Dark Brotherhood was done. Cicero was fleeing from the last Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary in the Empire. Astrid kept the guild alive by doing what's necessary. Adapting. Things that don't change die. Where was Sithis or the Night Mother when Maro was wiping them out?

You want to follow the old ways, be my guest, but don't hate on Astrid for doing what's necessary to survive.

Astrid started out doing what was necessary to survive at first, which was fine, to basically turning into bandit leader clinging to her own power, which is not fine. It makes sense to turn almost into mercenary assassins if there are no Night Mother contracts, but abandoning the Tenets is a descent into lawlessness where the only rule is "Obey Astrid or die". Her own greed got in the way of their survival, and I'm glad she died for it. I just wish the other survivors didn't regret her death so much, and the others hadn't died because of her.

/soapbox

[Stemin]

Astrid started out doing what was necessary to survive at first, which was fine, to basically turning into bandit leader clinging to her own power, which is not fine. It makes sense to turn almost into mercenary assassins if there are no Night Mother contracts, but abandoning the Tenets is a descent into lawlessness where the only rule is "Obey Astrid or die". Her own greed got in the way of their survival, and I'm glad she died for it. I just wish the other survivors didn't regret her death so much, and the others hadn't died because of her.

/soapbox

What evidence do you have for this? Her whole philosophy was "for the good of the family." She brings you in, and accepts you, then Cicero shows up claiming you're the listener and how is she supposed to trust you then?

And I don't know if you noticed or not, but Cicero is a total whack job. I wouldn't respect anything he said either if I was in her shoes, regardless of what tenets he claimed to follow.

[AnkhAscendant]

Astrid started out doing what was necessary to survive at first, which was fine, to basically turning into bandit leader clinging to her own power, which is not fine. It makes sense to turn almost into mercenary assassins if there are no Night Mother contracts, but abandoning the Tenets is a descent into lawlessness where the only rule is "Obey Astrid or die". Her own greed got in the way of their survival, and I'm glad she died for it. I just wish the other survivors didn't regret her death so much, and the others hadn't died because of her.

/soapbox

What evidence do you have for this? Her whole philosophy was "for the good of the family." She brings you in, and accepts you, then Cicero shows up claiming you're the listener and how is she supposed to trust you then?

And I don't know if you noticed or not, but Cicero is a total whack job. I wouldn't respect anything he said either if I was in her shoes, regardless of what tenets he claimed to follow.

I got that from Astrid herself (except for the "Obey Astrid ir die", that was inference). She didn't have a problem admitting that they had abandoned the five tenets, and I believe it was before she died that she admitted she was afraid of losing her power. Sure, Cicero's freaking nuts, but she didn't hate or distrust him because he's nuts, she hated the threat he and his ways (and the Listener) presented to her new order.

[Stemin]

I got that from Astrid herself (except for the "Obey Astrid ir die", that was inference). She didn't have a problem admitting that they had abandoned the five tenets, and I believe it was before she died that she admitted she was afraid of losing her power. Sure, Cicero's freaking nuts, but she didn't hate or distrust him because he's nuts, she hated the threat he and his ways (and the Listener) presented to her new order.

Which doesn't change anything I said. She was afraid of losing her power, which was matron of "the family." And she fully admitted that she broke the tenets as you said. It's real easy on your deathbed to second guess yourself and think that if you'd have done something differently you wouldn't be in the situation, but it's nothing but a hypothetical with no grounds for proving true or false.

Facts are facts. The DB was dying. The only surviving "sanctuary" was the one that abandon the tenets. It only failed to survive after absorbing a member who followed those tenets. There would have been no disaster if not for Cicero and his "old ways" bs. Right?

[AnkhAscendant]

Which doesn't change anything I said. She was afraid of losing her power, which was matron of "the family." And she fully admitted that she broke the tenets as you said. It's real easy on your deathbed to second guess yourself and think that if you'd have done something differently you wouldn't be in the situation, but it's nothing but a hypothetical with no grounds for proving true or false.

Facts are facts. The DB was dying. The only surviving "sanctuary" was the one that abandon the tenets. It only failed to survive after absorbing a member who followed those tenets. There would have been no disaster if not for Cicero and his "old ways" bs. Right?

You seem to be skipping the part between absorbing Cicero and the sanctuary's destruction - that being the part where Astrid sold out her own family members to the Pentaculus Occulatus. The people intent on wiping them out.

It is generally true that they wouldn't have been decimated if not for Cicero, because there would have been no Listener for Astrid to be threatened by. It's more specifically true that they wouldn't have been decimated if Astrid had respected the old ways when they were presented and shown to be valid again and not tried to cling to her power at the cost of the lives of people who were supposed to be under her care.

[Stemin]

You seem to be skipping the part between absorbing Cicero and the sanctuary's destruction - that being the part where Astrid sold out her own family members to the Pentaculus Occulatus. The people intent on wiping them out.

That would be incorrect. Astrid sold the dragonborn out (not "her family"), and she gave her reasons, which were directly tied to Cicero's proclamation that you're the listener. In fact, if you paid attention, the agreement was that Maro would spare the "family" in return for your life because you killed his son. He went back on the deal. As I said. It all comes down to Cicero's nonsense about the old ways.

It is generally true that they wouldn't have been decimated if not for Cicero, because there would have been no Listener for Astrid to be threatened by.

Precisely.

It's more specifically true that they wouldn't have been decimated if Astrid had respected the old ways when they were presented and shown to be valid again and not tried to cling to her power at the cost of the lives of people who were supposed to be under her care.

I don't know how you can possibly believe this. Like I said. Every other sanctuary following the old ways had been wiped out.

Edited by Stemin, 19 September 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Lachdonin]

The Dark Brotherhood was, and is, first and formost, a religious group. They follow the will of Sithis, as first heard by the Night Mother. Astrid violated the religious tenants of her order, tenants passed down by a very literal god, and thus she stopped being Dark Brotherhood and became nothing but a group of swords for hire. This is particularly pointed because each member of the Dark Brotherhood supposedly seeks to join Sithis in the void (while taking as many souls with them as possible) so by changing to survive, Astrid was deliberately avoiding that fate, further violating the religious basis of the Dark Brotherhood.

Admitedly, Cicero wasn't too keen on dieing either, but he at least was just doing his job, protecting the Night Mother and the sacred tenants the Dark Brotherhood is supposed to live, and most importantly, DIE by. Astrid, on the other hand, turned her back on that, and i hope Sithis is quite stern with the wench.

[MidbossVyers]

If that's your logic, then the Listener 200 years ago also abandoned those Tenets...

[Stemin]

The Dark Brotherhood was, and is, first and formost, a religious group. They follow the will of Sithis, as first heard by the Night Mother. Astrid violated the religious tenants of her order, tenants passed down by a very literal god, and thus she stopped being Dark Brotherhood and became nothing but a group of swords for hire. This is particularly pointed because each member of the Dark Brotherhood supposedly seeks to join Sithis in the void (while taking as many souls with them as possible) so by changing to survive, Astrid was deliberately avoiding that fate, further violating the religious basis of the Dark Brotherhood.

At this point it becomes semantics. If the Dark Brotherhood is wiped out except for this one sanctuary in Skyrim and they follow their own set of rules, call themselves the Dark Brotherhood and everyone fears them as the Dark Brotherhood, they're still the Dark Brotherhood, much like the Catholic church doesn't still believe in purgatory, still keep their bibles written in languages their worshipers can't read (prior to Martin Luther translating it), etc.

Unless you're going to make the argument that because one person (Cicero) was still following the old ways that he was representative of the Dark Brotherhood and Astrid's clan was not, which is about as silly as saying the Confederate Nation still exists because some people in the south never gave up believing.

If that's your logic, then the Listener 200 years ago also abandoned those Tenets...

I'm not sure if you're addressing the person directly above you? Could you elaborate?