187 replies to this topic

[warden310]

RHofS, y'know the old saying "don't believe everything you read and only half of what you hear"? well with Cicero, i am inclined to not believe him unless he has another source to side with him.

besides i still say Ulfric wants revenge for being locked up, nit truly wanting to free Skyrim.

Edited by warden310, 02 August 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[sukeban]

Both those books, The Madmen of the Reach and The Bear of Markarth, are so dubious and obviously biased, it is a wonder that they are even being discussed. May as well begin conversation about the merits or historical accuracy of books like The Nords of Skyrim, The Scourge of the Grey Quater, and The Talos Mistake. Get real.

Plus, the Forsworn are mad lame to begin with. They're like a cross between the Shining Path of Peru and the Taliban, religious fanatics on a permanent search and destroy crusade against the outside world. Have fun hiding in the cave with all your goat heads and hagravenz. Please stay there while the rest of the world carries on without you. They'll be missed, I'm sure *rolls eyes*

In any case, I recently read (and watched) the Shakespeare play Coriolanus. TLDR version is that a great war here (Ulfric) returns home to be made proclaimed consul. Sniveling enemies then stab him in the back (Markarth Incident), label him a traitor, and exile him. He then returns to his old enemies and joins their cause (creates Stormcloaks), turning his martial brilliance against those that had wronged him. In the end, he is betrayed by his own faction, as they too fear his growing power within their ranks.

I couldn't help but think of Ulfric when I was reading it. The protagonist is concretely wronged by his homeland and he then expends all of his energies working toward its destruction. This increases the power of his old enemies as he is fighting for their side. But what else is he supposed to do? Turn the other cheek when cowardly plotters have ousted the only real hero among them? Gone off to die in the wilderness like they had hoped? No way. Rome decided to reap the whirlwind so to speak when they turned against him. I was hoping that he would have razed the city in the end (despite history) as just desserts, but alas he stopped short.

Anyway, not 100% analogous, but similar enough to share. Maybe.

[warden310]

everything about Ulfric in-game points to one thing: Him wanting revenge pure and simple.

what about all the things people say in-game, should that not be discussed because it all is clearly biased as well.

• EMPIRE-Ulfric Murdered the high king, he has to die
• STORMCLOAK-Ulfric Killed the high king In an Honorable duel. HE is the true high king

this is just the essence of it all but it shows that no one and nothing in Skyrim is to be trusted. WHATSOEVER.

Edited by warden310, 02 August 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Scorch621]

Did anyone know that if you meet ulfric in sovngarde if he died in the civil war quests he regrets his decision to rebel against the empire?
If you can talk to him after you defeat alduin
He says his rebellion only weakened skyrim so the Thalmor could regain strength

Interesting, but it doesn't contradict the common and probably boring argument that the Empire is collapsing.

For two hundred years, the Empire has been falling slowly. But since the Great War, the Empire has been getting worse. Now it has come to the point where Skyrim is in a civil war, Cyrodiil is plagued by riots and gang wars (Cicero) and High Rock has probably returned to its system of fighting itself.

When the Empire collapses, it will bring Skyrim and High Rock down with it. Unless, Skyrim and high Rock where to leave (ironically, causing the fall of the Empire early).

Furthermore, while I have not met Ulfric in Sovngarde yet, he may have been referring to it helping the Thalmor by remaining undecided, not by it causing (or seeking) Skyrim's independence.

The Empire is collapsing yes, this is why it needs Skyrim, without it the Empire is damned, that is the truth of the matter I agree.
The empire only got into this position because of the Oblivion crisis which left the Empire with no emperor, just like Skyrim however civil war erupted in Cyrodiil, which resulted with Titus Mede taking the throne, then look what happened, The Thalmor invaded after Cyrodiil was getting its bearings, think of what will happen to Skyrim if Ulfric wins, he will assume position as High King(much like Titus Mede assumed position as emperor a hundred years earlier) then the Thalmor will have no excuse NOT to invade, the Empire is holding the Thalmor at bay by saying, "look we're in Skyrim, we'll handle things here dont trouble yourself" So if the Empire loses control the Thalmor will say, "You dont have things under control there, we're stepping in..." Skyrim will come under extreme invasion in a few years if not a few months! and Skyrim will crumble just like Cyrodiil...

Ulfric is a very fickle sort of person, he leaves his support of the Empire when its down on its knees, and then starts a rebellion making it even worse!
thats like you leaving your best friend when he's being beaten up by the big guy at the bar, then hitting your friend over the head with a plate because he's probably going to lose.

You seem completely sure that the Empire WILL crumble, it will...if Skyrim secedes from the empire. If it doesnt, the empire could well be on its way to actually winning the war with the Thalmor, and after that new leadership will step in...you are Dragonborn after all, you have the most claim to the throne out of almost anyone we know so far, even Titus Mede II...and he is the emperor

As for Ulfric in Sovngarde it remains debateable, ghosts speak very in a very archaic way, makes it difficult to understand them...stuff rhymes too!

Edited by Scorch621, 03 August 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[Scorch621]

double post sorry

Edited by Scorch621, 03 August 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[BrettM]

Both those books, The Madmen of the Reach and The Bear of Markarth, are so dubious and obviously biased, it is a wonder that they are even being discussed.

Despite their bias, these books have value or it would have been pointless for Bethesda to have included them in the first place.

If nothing else, the presence of these books and others (e.g. The Talos Mistake) is a demonstration that the intelligentsia of the Empire have become Thalmor sycophants. That is a sign of the failing health of the Empire. The establishment is pushing propaganda aimed at pleasing the Dominion and no alternative viewpoints are being published.

But there is something else. When the bias is so clearly detectable, it is possible to read between the lines, discount the bias, and get some idea of the true state of affairs. For example, The Bear of Markarth gives us the basic fact that there WAS a deal between Ulfric and the Empire regarding Talos worship, regardless of whether we believe the assertion that the deal was a result of blackmail by Ulfric. I doubt the author would have admitted the existence of this deal if he could have pinned the arrangement on Igmund and Torygg's father, leaving the Empire entirely blameless. But the fact is so well known that he has to admit it and resort to the blackmail story to get the Empire off the hook.

Likewise we can compare the author's claim that the Empire wanted to negotiate with the Forsworn, leaving those people free to rule themselves, with other facts at hand. If this is truly what the Empire wanted, why didn't they release Madenach from prison and give the Reach back to him once they had taken control back from Ulfric? It seems obvious that the Empire never did want the Reach to be independent, but they were forced to negotiate because the Legions were still too weak from the Great War to reconquer it. (Remember that this all took place very shortly after the end of the Great War.) Ulfric did the Empire a huge favor by reconquering the Reach for them, which the author is forced to admit if you read between the lines and ignore the scare quotes he uses when writing of the Empire's gratitude.

I find these books quite worthy of discussion.

[warden310]

Both those books, The Madmen of the Reach and The Bear of Markarth, are so dubious and obviously biased, it is a wonder that they are even being discussed.

Despite their bias, these books have value or it would have been pointless for Bethesda to have included them in the first place.

If nothing else, the presence of these books and others (e.g. The Talos Mistake) is a demonstration that the intelligentsia of the Empire have become Thalmor sycophants. That is a sign of the failing health of the Empire. The establishment is pushing propaganda aimed at pleasing the Dominion and no alternative viewpoints are being published.

But there is something else. When the bias is so clearly detectable, it is possible to read between the lines, discount the bias, and get some idea of the true state of affairs. For example, The Bear of Markarth gives us the basic fact that there WAS a deal between Ulfric and the Empire regarding Talos worship, regardless of whether we believe the assertion that the deal was a result of blackmail by Ulfric. I doubt the author would have admitted the existence of this deal if he could have pinned the arrangement on Igmund and Torygg's father, leaving the Empire entirely blameless. But the fact is so well known that he has to admit it and resort to the blackmail story to get the Empire off the hook.

Likewise we can compare the author's claim that the Empire wanted to negotiate with the Forsworn, leaving those people free to rule themselves, with other facts at hand. If this is truly what the Empire wanted, why didn't they release Madenach from prison and give the Reach back to him once they had taken control back from Ulfric? It seems obvious that the Empire never did want the Reach to be independent, but they were forced to negotiate because the Legions were still too weak from the Great War to reconquer it. (Remember that this all took place very shortly after the end of the Great War.) Ulfric did the Empire a huge favor by reconquering the Reach for them, which the author is forced to admit if you read between the lines and ignore the scare quotes he uses when writing of the Empire's gratitude.

I find these books quite worthy of discussion.

those books, along with everything else about Ulfric/The Empire is just biased opinion, brought them up so i can get to my point, That Ulfric may want revenge on the empire fpr locking him up.

[RighthandofSithis]

Did anyone know that if you meet ulfric in sovngarde if he died in the civil war quests he regrets his decision to rebel against the empire?
If you can talk to him after you defeat alduin
He says his rebellion only weakened skyrim so the Thalmor could regain strength

Interesting, but it doesn't contradict the common and probably boring argument that the Empire is collapsing.

For two hundred years, the Empire has been falling slowly. But since the Great War, the Empire has been getting worse. Now it has come to the point where Skyrim is in a civil war, Cyrodiil is plagued by riots and gang wars (Cicero) and High Rock has probably returned to its system of fighting itself.

When the Empire collapses, it will bring Skyrim and High Rock down with it. Unless, Skyrim and high Rock where to leave (ironically, causing the fall of the Empire early).

Furthermore, while I have not met Ulfric in Sovngarde yet, he may have been referring to it helping the Thalmor by remaining undecided, not by it causing (or seeking) Skyrim's independence.

The Empire is collapsing yes, this is why it needs Skyrim, without it the Empire is damned, that is the truth of the matter I agree.
The empire only got into this position because of the Oblivion crisis which left the Empire with no emperor, just like Skyrim however civil war erupted in Cyrodiil, which resulted with Titus Mede taking the throne, then look what happened, The Thalmor invaded after Cyrodiil was getting its bearings, think of what will happen to Skyrim if Ulfric wins, he will assume position as High King(much like Titus Mede assumed position as emperor a hundred years earlier) then the Thalmor will have no excuse NOT to invade, the Empire is holding the Thalmor at bay by saying, "look we're in Skyrim, we'll handle things here dont trouble yourself" So if the Empire loses control the Thalmor will say, "You dont have things under control there, we're stepping in..." Skyrim will come under extreme invasion in a few years if not a few months! and Skyrim will crumble just like Cyrodiil...

Ulfric is a very fickle sort of person, he leaves his support of the Empire when its down on its knees, and then starts a rebellion making it even worse!
thats like you leaving your best friend when he's being beaten up by the big guy at the bar, then hitting your friend over the head with a plate because he's probably going to lose.

You seem completely sure that the Empire WILL crumble, it will...if Skyrim secedes from the empire. If it doesnt, the empire could well be on its way to actually winning the war with the Thalmor, and after that new leadership will step in...you are Dragonborn after all, you have the most claim to the throne out of almost anyone we know so far, even Titus Mede II...and he is the emperor

As for Ulfric in Sovngarde it remains debateable, ghosts speak very in a very archaic way, makes it difficult to understand them...stuff rhymes too!

First and foremost, I know how to criticise sources. However, I also know that when there is only once source for information on a particular topic, you have to accept what it says. Even if it is shaky, its the best we have, and we can't deny it.

Furthermore, I think I can make a decent case for Cicero. He is not overly interested in any political struggle (as far as we a re aware), thus he is unbiased (far less biased than other sources such as the Bear of Markarth etc). He witnessed it firsthand, he was from Cyrodiil, and for him to take such extreme action like fleeing with the Night Mother only give more credibility to him. He also provides accurate dates in his journal. Yes he is insane, but his journal retains his knowledge prior to his insanity, and even that on its own supports my argument. Furthermore, he is not blinded by his insanity. He can still recognise the player as helping him, and also as listener.

And no, I am not just copying other peoples arguments, I've developed my own.


Now, while you can draw similarities between Ulfric and Titus I, its not the same situation. Titus was a usurper who took control of a failing Empire. This is different to a revolutionary. A revolutionary does not assume power over the old system, they destroy it, and rebuild society from its ruins (France, America, Russia, China etc). Ulric isn't just trying to take power, he is trying to smash the Imperial system (in Skyrim, which, as you say, will destroy the Empire). When this happens, he will rebuild Skyrim from the ruins of its Imperial past. This may result in some insecurity in the short term, but in the long term, it will create a strong state. Using France, Russia and China as examples, we can see this happens, and in a relatively short time.

Now, you are going to say that the Thalmor will just invade Skyrim. Again, I have a counter argument.

Following the Battle of Red Ring, the Thalmors forces where obliterated. They couldn't even hold Hammerfell, that had seen centuries (most probably) of infighting, and then an Invasion. As we know, Elves take much longer to mautre than men. Even a 50 year old Altmer is considered young. This means that they either still lack any significant forces, or they have drafted young elves into their army, amking their army much weaker than it previously was. And even then, if they did want to invade Skyrim they would have two choices, attack by land or by sea. An assault by sea would be disastrous, as they'd stretch their supply and communication lines to far, and leave it open for attack by pirates. An attack by land would be just as bad. They would have to march through either Hammerfell (big mistake, they failed once, and even if they did succeed, the Redguards would form a resistance movement), or High Rock (which may very well unite against them, like they did against the Cameron Usurper) or Cyrodiil (most likely the easiest). In any case, they would have to divide their forces. One to continue the assault, and one to occupy their territories, further weakening their forces.

And this is still not taking Skyrim's geography into consideration. Skyrim is the most mountainous province in Tamriel, which will provide challenges in itself (Hannibal tried this, and how may soldiers did he loose?). Furthermore, it is an incredibly cold land. Look how Hitler's forces fared in the Russian winter. Many died from the cold, and those who didn't had their morale ruined (fighting a ruthless opponent in a harsh land, where many of your comrades are dying from the weather.). Now let's throw Skyrim's hstile creatures into the mix. in short, an invasion into Skyrim would be suicide.

And I'm dead certain the Empire is collapsing for a reason. Even if Skyrim remains a part of it, it is just delaying the inevitable, and making the aftershock bigger and bigger. Its situation is almost a textbook example of how empires fall. Its under threat from an outside force, experiencing a revolutionary situation with in it, I'd make an educated guess that with it far from prospering, that it is experiencing economic hardship (perhaps even an impending collapse?), and its power has been waning for over 200 years. These are the same circumstances that Rome, Byzantium, Russia, The Ottoman's, Britain. All experienced the exact same situation.

Furthermore, with all this talk about the Markarth Incident, I think I will mention that the whole issue seems far to familiar to me. The Roman Empire in its latter years often hired Barbarian tribes to fight for them, and give them land in return. This then fueled their ambitions to fight against Rome for more land, and was one of the contributing factors in Romes downfall. I think we can make the connection between Markarth, and the deals the Roman Empire agreed to, in that the Empire had hired the Nords (a somewhat Germanic/Scandinavian race) to fight one of its wars, and now Ulfric is fighting against the Empire.

So, with all that in mind, I think I can safely justify myself.

Edited by RighthandofSithis, 04 August 2012 - 02:25 AM.

[Scorch621]

You have good points, very good points indeed, but a Thalmor invasion of Skyrim would not be impossible, remember, Elves have very strong magic on their side, something which Nords have trouble dealing with, especially the ones that follow Ulfric's cause, not to say they would cower and fear, but they would be defenceless when it comes to magic, I can imagine that during full scale battles, with thousands on each side Aldmeri mages would be casting rains of magical death down on Nordic soldiers.
The use of magic could also aid them in an invasion by Sea, and I'm sure a Thalmor war ship can handle a few pirates.

The Thalmor would have problems with the land, its cold tempratures would probably be the main cause of it though.
but the Nords would also have their own troubles, much of Skyrim's food comes from the Empire, Skyrim has it tough when it comes to growing crops and breeding cattle.
I'll use the Boer war as an example, the British had great troubles dealing with boer commandos and raids, The Stormcloaks would likely use similar tactics in an invasion due to smaller numbers and knowledge of terrain.
The British then resorted to burning farms and taking civilians hostage and putting them in concentration camps.The boers eventually lost because they ran out of food and knew that their families were being held hostage by British soldiers.
The Thalmor would likely do the same, burn down farms, take people prisoner and ransom Skyrim back to the Nords and we're back at square one with Skyrim encountering even worse problems than the empire.


Elves take a long time to mature yes, but they live very long as well, Sinderion lived almost 200 years and he still went to Blackreach...
so I'm sure the Thalmor have battle hardened veterans on their side as well.
Not to mention Bosmer scouts, Khajiit warriors(look at the caravaneers, they do fine navigating Skyrim) and probably Deadra considering magical powers again.
but yeah, its difficult to tell how Skyrim would handle itself in an invasion like this, Skyrim could definitely handle themselves, but it could go either way.

We could go on for a while debating this, so I'll leave invasion plans there

Can I also ask why you think the Empire is failing?
like you said they obliterated the forces of the Thalmor at the battle of the Red Ring
and they control High Rock, technically Skyrim, what's left of Morrowind and I'm sure Hammerfell would agree to joining in war against the Thalmor and would be the Empires Ally in the aftermath, if the Empire could find a better way of ruling Tamriel(New dynasty incoming, definitely) it would take a very...very long time to fall, all Empires fall though, I will agree with that, but I dont think the Stormcloaks are doing the right thing by aiding its progression.

Edited by Scorch621, 04 August 2012 - 04:13 AM.

[RighthandofSithis]

I was going to argue back, but I can't be bothered. Please don;t take that as a personal insult, or perceive me as being rude, I'm just tired, and was hoping for a different argument.

But I will say that, even though the Empire held its own in the Great War, that was what is making me think the Empire is collapsing.

Following the war, Cyrodiil would have been ruined. Its infrastructure would have been decimated, and its treasury emptied. They couldn't even pay for the Forsworn to be defeated, so they offered religious freedom. And now, they've lost Hammerfell, meaning they only have control of Cyrodiil (still experiencing infighting) Skyrim (In a civil war and that will not just end with the execution of Ulfric), High Rock (which I believe has likely reverted to its days of fighting itself) and Morrowind (worthless, and half occupied by Black Marsh).

This is where my whole argument came into play. Its a textbook definition of a screwed Empire.

PS. The only assumption I'm making is that the Stormcloaks have won the civil war. I'm not assuming that the player will become Emperor and save the whole world.