48 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

http://www.imperial-...resworn-missive

Thats one. I'm working right now, and the sheeple are being more sheep than people tonight, so i don't have time to an exhaustive search for find the other 2 i've read.

** The only reason i found it so quick is because it is, literally, Foresworn Missive, rather than some other esoteric 'letter from such-and-such".

Edited by Lachdonin, 07 September 2012 - 11:39 PM.

[RighthandofSithis]

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/foresworn-missive

Thats one. I'm working right now, and the sheeple are being more sheep than people tonight, so i don't have time to an exhaustive search for find the other 2 i've read.

** The only reason i found it so quick is because it is, literally, Foresworn Missive, rather than some other esoteric 'letter from such-and-such".

I've read that one, and I've always believed it to be more reffering to someone in the one forsworn camp.

[Inquart]

I have always thought that the Forsworn are rather disorganised and disunified as a whole and that the only person capable of truly uniting them somehow is their King in Rags, Madanach. I think it's largely his absence - and the fall of their violently quelled uprising - that has led them to that point, i. e. being broken into few stronger or weaker warbands holed up somewhere in their mountain redoubts.

That said, I still can't help wondering if any form of peace with the Forsworn as a faction is possible, given the lack of some overall authority among them, respected by all warbands and thus able to represent them as a whole. As it was mentioned before, there are some native sons of the Reach leading rather peaceful if a bit low existence in Markarth, so maybe "painting the city's walls with Nord blood" as I believe one prisoner in Cindha Mine have put it isn't that necessary. My Dovahkiin is a Nord in service to the Empire (as "united Empire is better for everyone"), so I am of course sympathizing with the Nord point of wiev (though both Madanach and Thonar Silver-Blood were worth one another and given the chance, I killed both of them), but I think the Empire should somehow address the Forsworn after finally putting Ulfric down. The question is - how should the Empire make peace with someone so disunified on one hand (signing some kind of a peace treaty with every separate warband and probably making some concessions to all of them may prove difficult), and someone so far gone on the other? I mean, some of those warbands are clearly made up of genocidal freaks, cooperating willingly with those nasty Hagravens, making bloody human and animal sacrifices like some kind of sick primitives, not even remembering anymore what they're fighting for and bend on killing any and every Nord (or anything and everything at all) in their sight - those groups should be quickly rounded up and mercilessly decimated as a threat to eventual peace and a threat per se.

As I said before - my heart goes to the Nords nonetheless.

Edited by Inquart, 08 September 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[Cobwebmaster]

. it doesn't really matter who wins the civil war as the Forsworn hate Nords period, but that should not be a barrier to peace.

While i agree for the most part (and would in fact love to see more quests regarding the Foresworn Rebellion) i dissagree with this premise. The Foresworn hate the Nords, it's true, but there is something verry different about the conduct of the Empire and the Stormcloaks in regards to them.

The Empire is far more tollerant to the idea of Reachman independance, going so far as to be willing to hear their suggestion of soverignty during the uprising. They also are opposed to the treatment of the Reachmen in Markarth, as evidenced by a particular conversation with the Smelter Foreman. With that to consider, its clear that the Jarl have a lot of independance in their own domans, because te Empire is, ethically at least, more on the side of the Foresworn. Economics of course are want to confuse the issue.

As for the Stormcloaks, not only are they the ones who put down the Reachmen during the Markarth Incedent (rather brutally, in fact) there is also the hipocritical nature of their own rebellion to consider. The Reachmen wanted independance and the right to live by their own traditions, and were, in effect, slaughtered for it, then Ulfric and his followers, fresh from what can only be considered a war crime, demand the same thing for themselves of the Empire. If you were a Reachman, would you be willing to even talk to Ulfric after that? The act its self indicates that, to Ulfric, the Stormcloaks and maybe even the Nords in general, the Reachmen are inherently inferior and not deserving of the same rights they demand themselves.

That makes for a radically different negotiating platform between the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

Agreed Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are Nazis and therefore racists with a superiority complex. Windhelm stinks of such a culture which I have to say Ulfric does nothing to discourage. Ulfric is of course totally untrustworthy as evidenced by his personal ambition in trying to become King by betraying the Imperials to of all people the very race which his own Nords express such permanent dislike of. The fact that the Altmeri were already inside the Imperial City (as evidenced by Ambassador Elenwenn's security reports) does not detract from the revelation that Ulfric as a senior Imperial Legionnaire is quite happy to sell out his own allies to further his personal agenda. Perhaps I did not express my point clearly enough. In terms of Nords being invaders there is or will be from the Forsworn viewpoint a general feeling of deep resentment but yes, an Empire motivated Skyrim king or one with an eye on uniting Skyrim rather than conquering it is going to have a much greater chance of success at a long term peaceful solution with some if not all of the Forsworn, but for any long lasting solution to work the fanatics and extremists from both sides need to be dealt with. It makes sense to theorise that even without the Empire's intervention Ulfric's usurping of the throne, would have led to a major split in Skyrim anyway with the more prosperous Jarls and Hold citizens resisting any attempt by Ulfric to take them back to the stone age. Ulfric seeing that the majority of Jarls would not support him (as evidenced by the last moot) simply decided to take the place over for himself. The Stormcloaks are a means to achieving that and of course enforcing his will if and once he gets the whole country which inevitably will regress under his leadership

The Dragonborn is uniquely positioned to take the political intiative. Not being a Nord to my mind lengthens the odds of a mutually beneficial alliance with Ulfric anyway, given the attitude towards foreigners unless you are a Redguard who's nation are already conducting a campaign against the Altmeri. Even then it will only be a short term alliance until the Altmeri are defeated or neutralised

Going back to the topic I do have some sympathy for the plight of the Forsworn, but the OC does not cater for the political solution of having the Dragonborn unite Skyrim, or as an alternative (echoes of DAO here) get a leader appointed who all of the Jarls (except Ulfric who will have to be defeated/deposed) will support. The strength of the Dragonborn behind (or on) the throne (with even maybe some dragons) will give the Altmeri pause for thought

[SFBryan18]

It seems like most criticism about Ulfric and the Stormcloaks is way over exaggerated. Just reading the first line of the last post "Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are Nazis", you either don't know this story very well or you don't know who the Nazi's were. Hitler was far worse than Ulfric, and the fact that you even went there don't deserve an ounce more logic.

[Lachdonin]

I tend to agree. Ulfric, however i may feel about him, is nothing near Hitler. if he were to start rounding up all the non-Nords and executing them enmasse, i may be inclined to agree with you. As it stands, however, forcing the minorities into ghettos and using them a cheap labour seems to be more the Stormcloak style

But i digress, none of that is really relavent, since neither the Stormcloaks or Ulfric, or the Empire for that matter, are anything more than a side-show in regards to the topic. This is about the Silverbloods, the Foresworn, and the Nords of the Reach, not the greater personalities and political conflicts of Skyrim.

[Cobwebmaster]

It seems like most criticism about Ulfric and the Stormcloaks is way over exaggerated. Just reading the first line of the last post "Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are Nazis", you either don't know this story very well or you don't know who the Nazi's were. Hitler was far worse than Ulfric, and the fact that you even went there don't deserve an ounce more logic.

Wrong! I know a lot about the NSDAP having studied it's activities extensively over many years from a political history viewpoint. Are you trying to tell me that there are no parallels whatever between Ulfric and his Stormcloaks and Hitler, and Himmlers "Jewish Question" which started off as a repatriation and persecution thing and later became a policy of extermination of Jews Communists Homosexuals, prostitutes and any political enemy or "degenerate"? I don't think so! Ulfric in ruthlessly suppressing the Forsworn revolt has created for himself a particular ranking in the Forsworn's Hall of Hatred so describing him as a Nazi is not a million miles away from an accurate analysis of his political stance. However , while I acknowledge that the morality of Ufric's thuggish regime is not an direct issue here it does have some relevance when trying to gauge what might be the obstacles to a peaceful solution to the "Forsworn" problem. It's my guess that Ulfric would simply wipe them out . " Skyrim for the Nords!"

So to also disagree with the follow up post to this one, I do not seee how you can discount any major action which would have a direct effect on the Forsworn attitude towards anyone who is not a forsworn but particularly Nords who are seen as the chief aggressors. Yes the Silverbloods are a problem, but they also Nords. If a Forsworn family were doing what the Silverblood (aka Borgia) family it's a simple case of having a better Jarl who is not a Silverblood, but who would that be and how would he she work to bring "Justice for all"?

Skyrim is a very complex political place with no particular Jarl (unless it's Balgruuf) standing out as particularly able in managing the prosperity for all his hold citizens and keeping the peace

[StayFrosty05]

I tend to agree. Ulfric, however i may feel about him, is nothing near Hitler. if he were to start rounding up all the non-Nords and executing them enmasse, i may be inclined to agree with you. As it stands, however, forcing the minorities into ghettos and using them a cheap labour seems to be more the Stormcloak style

But i digress, none of that is really relavent, since neither the Stormcloaks or Ulfric, or the Empire for that matter, are anything more than a side-show in regards to the topic. This is about the Silverbloods, the Foresworn, and the Nords of the Reach, not the greater personalities and political conflicts of Skyrim.

I would have to disagree with this statement here Lachdonin....I have been reading every post and do feel in regards to the Civil War, Ulfric, etc...that the outcome of the Civil War would have a very pertinent effect on any outcome on the situation in the Reach....and who it effects and how....depending on who's left in over all charge....I do believe it ties in myself.

[RighthandofSithis]

It seems like most criticism about Ulfric and the Stormcloaks is way over exaggerated. Just reading the first line of the last post "Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are Nazis", you either don't know this story very well or you don't know who the Nazi's were. Hitler was far worse than Ulfric, and the fact that you even went there don't deserve an ounce more logic.

Wrong! I know a lot about the NSDAP having studied it's activities extensively over many years from a political history viewpoint. Are you trying to tell me that there are no parallels whatever between Ulfric and his Stormcloaks and Hitler, and Himmlers "Jewish Question" which started off as a repatriation and persecution thing and later became a policy of extermination of Jews Communists Homosexuals, prostitutes and any political enemy or "degenerate"? I don't think so! Ulfric in ruthlessly suppressing the Forsworn revolt has created for himself a particular ranking in the Forsworn's Hall of Hatred so describing him as a Nazi is not a million miles away from an accurate analysis of his political stance. However , while I acknowledge that the morality of Ufric's thuggish regime is not an direct issue here it does have some relevance when trying to gauge what might be the obstacles to a peaceful solution to the "Forsworn" problem. It's my guess that Ulfric would simply wipe them out . " Skyrim for the Nords!"

I'd also have to disagree.

Skyrim is set in a semi-feudal system. Racism, Anti-Semitism, and Pogroms were very common under feudalism, and again under capitalism (granted, the hatred has changed from the Jews, to other ethnic groups). You can't assume that Ulfric is about to order the genocide of entire ethnicities based solely on his nationalism.

Furthermore, you can't call Ulfric a fascist. Fascism is a reactionary movement. In reality, it serves to defend the bourgeoisie and suppress the proletariat. Ulfric is a revolutionary. He is leading the Nordic Aristocracy in class war against the Imperial Aristocracy.

[Inquart]

As it stands, however, forcing the minorities into ghettos and using them a cheap labour seems to be more the Stormcloak style

I don't know if you were joking or not, but I really hope you know that the Nazis also established more than a few ghettos for minorities (Jews mainly; I believe the first such ghetto was opened in October 1939 in what Germans call Petrikau, now Piotrków in Poland) and were often using the people living there in rather unfavorable conditions as a slave labour (though to lesser extend than concentration camps inmates, of course).

Now, when it comes to Adolf Hitler - I don't know if it's something I should boast about, but I tend to be called an expert on that matter, and not without reason; I've read "Mein Kampf" and his "Zweites Buch" ("Second Book" - titled so because he himself never gave it any official title and because it was published after his death) and know Führer's life from the moment of his birth at April 20th, 1889 in Braunau am Inn in Upper Austria to his suicide at April 30th, 1945 in his Berlin bunker probably better than my own. Now, Ulfric might be a Nord supremacist only tolerating the other races and a ruthless megalomaniac wishing to be High King, ready to kill anyone who stands in his way, he might be Hitler-like in some aspects, but he is not Hitler - yet. We're talking about a computer game here, so it's all largely hypothetical, but I think that with Ulfric as a High King of newly-independent Skyrim, the Elves and Argonians would have been quickly rounded up under some petty pretext like them being "dangerous aliens", spies, saboteurs or whatever - or even without any pretext at all, simply because they're not Nords. During the Civil War, Ulfric had his hands full, so the only thing he did was forcing the Dark Elves into the Grey Quarter and kicking the Argonians out to live in the docks, but imagine what he could do and would do with virtually unlimited power in his hands as a High King. War with Aldmeri Dominion would be his next goal, probably, but first he'd want to rebuild his forces and at the same time "keep the fire up" by turning his Stormcloaks on the "inside enemy".

As for Ulfric being a fascist - I, too, don't think we can call him that. I'd rather say he is simply a Nord nationalist and while nationalism is a strong component of both Fascism and National Socialism (Nazism), there are many other traits that Ulfric's ideology lacks to be called fascist.

Edited by Inquart, 09 September 2012 - 05:28 PM.