65 replies to this topic

[RighthandofSithis]

It seems like the logical reaction of skyrims nords as the Imperial influence slowly spreads across the region from Solitude, in most countries that are militantly annexed the majority of the residential citizens are resistant to the changes that the occupying force impose on them.

It has happened many times in our history, a particularly similar example would be the IRA consisting of Irish volunteers (aka Stormcloaks) who were in opposition of the British (aka Imperial) control and imposition of their own government, which lead to the Irish War of Independence which was fought as a guerilla style civil war, very much like the Stormcloak uprising in Skyrim.

Well Skyrim became part of The Empire during the First Era, its been Imperialized for like.... 4,000 years.

Well firstly, I'm pretty sure Skyrim was never entirely a part of the Alessian Empire, in fact, it was an Empire in its own right. So I doubt the 4000 years part.

Even then, we have to consider the Interregnum between the Second and Third Empires, in which Skyrim would have been completely independent.

Furthermore, characters from Oblivion claimed that the Nords of Bruma still retained their traditional and barbaric ways. So it is quite possible that this 'Imperialisation' has only happened in the last 200 years. Which makes sense, the Mede Dynasty needed to secure Skyrim and its people, and one of the best ways to do that is to destroy their culture, and replace it with your own (as the Romans did).

[sajuukkhar9000]

Well firstly, I'm pretty sure Skyrim was never entirely a part of the Alessian Empire, in fact, it was an Empire in its own right. So I doubt the 4000 years part.

Even then, we have to consider the Interregnum between the Second and Third Empires, in which Skyrim would have been completely independent.

Furthermore, characters from Oblivion claimed that the Nords of Bruma still retained their traditional and barbaric ways. So it is quite possible that this 'Imperialisation' has only happened in the last 200 years. Which makes sense, the Mede Dynasty needed to secure Skyrim and its people, and one of the best ways to do that is to destroy their culture, and replace it with your own (as the Romans did).

The Empire of Skyrim was allied with, and for the most part, considered part of, the Alessian Empire. It had even adopted the Allesian Pantheon as their official one.

In 1E 480, when Ysmir Wulfharth took the throne of Skyrim after the death of Hoag Merkiller, he reinstated the traditional Nordic pantheon, and cast out all the Alessian priests into the heartland of Cyrodiil, only for it to be undone later when he died.

Skyrim had its imperialization started when they allied with Alessia in 1E 242, and forsook their own pantheon for The Imperial Pantheon.

It has been on and off throughout history, but the Nords have been, for most of recorded history, part of The Empire, and under its rule. Hell nowadays 99% of the Nords call the gods by their Imperial names, instead of their Nordic ones.



They CLAIMED, but if you actually go to Bruma its exactly like every other Cyrodiilic town, the only thing different about them is that some of them still refer to the gods in their nordic names, which even that was rare, beyond that, they were all pretty imperialized.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 08 October 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[Khorak]

Also, the vast majority of people in Skyrim have a very "we don't give a s*** about either side we just want the war to be over" attitude about the whole thing. Its really only a small minority that has strong feelings one way or the other.

This is logically impossible; you can't raise a field army capable of storming major cities with a 'small minority' of support like that. Entire regions of Skyrim have declared for the Stormcloak cause. If the Jarls in question had such incredibly little support, their military commitments would be subject to paralysing levels of desertion and their own nobles would swiftly conclude that a dull blade on a cold night would be a profitable way for their Jarl to abdicate.

[RighthandofSithis]

Also, the vast majority of people in Skyrim have a very "we don't give a s*** about either side we just want the war to be over" attitude about the whole thing. Its really only a small minority that has strong feelings one way or the other.

This is logically impossible; you can't raise a field army capable of storming major cities with a 'small minority' of support like that. Entire regions of Skyrim have declared for the Stormcloak cause. If the Jarls in question had such incredibly little support, their military commitments would be subject to paralysing levels of desertion and their own nobles would swiftly conclude that a dull blade on a cold night would be a profitable way for their Jarl to abdicate.

That is a good point, and many of the soldiers encountered fell strongly for their faction, however, very few NPCs hold a strong view one way or the other.

I think this may be explained that everyone who does have a strong opinion, has actually joined the war, leaving the war weary and pacifists to be seen in-game.

[Khorak]

That is a good point, and many of the soldiers encountered fell strongly for their faction, however, very few NPCs hold a strong view one way or the other.

I think this may be explained that everyone who does have a strong opinion, has actually joined the war, leaving the war weary and pacifists to be seen in-game.

Well, more like leaving everyone who has a regular job to work. Gerdur and Hod clearly support the Stormcloaks....but they have a mill to run and a child to raise. And they live in a town with a smith they probably well know has a relative in the Legion who he supports. Lynch mobbing each other isn't going to serve the best interests of damn near anyone at all, so everyone shuts up, gets on with their job, and waits for the butchers bill to roll in later.

It's life. Your views are academic when at the end of the day, you need to sell all these damned apples.

Edited by Khorak, 09 October 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Kratos2000]

No reason to go with ulfric really, he leads a group of barbarian racists.
Balgruuf is a fine jarl, the only problem I had with going with the imperials is that they make Maven Blackbriar the jarl of riften, a honor she really doesn't deserve.

[sajuukkhar9000]

This is logically impossible; you can't raise a field army capable of storming major cities with a 'small minority' of support like that. Entire regions of Skyrim have declared for the Stormcloak cause. If the Jarls in question had such incredibly little support, their military commitments would be subject to paralysing levels of desertion and their own nobles would swiftly conclude that a dull blade on a cold night would be a profitable way for their Jarl to abdicate.

Fun fact.... its a game.... logic doesn't apply to it or do we need to go through the whole "falnmer are blind yet can totally "see" just because Bethesda made them that way" thing again?

We can only take what we see in the game as truth until Bethesda themselves say otherwise, and what we are shown in game is that the vast majority of people don't care.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Stormcloak army was much like Hitler's armies during WW2, tons of people in Hitler's armies didn't actually like him, or believe in what he did, or cared if he won, they did it to protect their home, but if they lost, ohhh well.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 09 October 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[RighthandofSithis]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Stormcloak army was much like Hitler's armies during WW2, tons of people in Hitler's armies didn't actually like him, or believe in what he did, or cared if he won, they did it to protect their home, but if they lost, ohhh well.

Must I explain the differences between Stormcloakism and Facism?

Edited by RighthandofSithis, 09 October 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[sajuukkhar9000]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Stormcloak army was much like Hitler's armies during WW2, tons of people in Hitler's armies didn't actually like him, or believe in what he did, or cared if he won, they did it to protect their home, but if they lost, ohhh well.

Must I explain the differences between Stormcloakism and Facism?

You don't need to because it is irrelevant to the discussion really.

the point was that many stormcloaks may not exactly believe in Uflric's ideals and are instead doing it out of a patriotic and habitual "defending my home" belief.

[Khorak]

This is logically impossible; you can't raise a field army capable of storming major cities with a 'small minority' of support like that. Entire regions of Skyrim have declared for the Stormcloak cause. If the Jarls in question had such incredibly little support, their military commitments would be subject to paralysing levels of desertion and their own nobles would swiftly conclude that a dull blade on a cold night would be a profitable way for their Jarl to abdicate.

Fun fact.... its a game.... logic doesn't apply to it or do we need to go through the whole "falnmer are blind yet can totally "see" just because Bethesda made them that way" thing again?

We can only take what we see in the game as truth until Bethesda themselves say otherwise, and what we are shown in game is that the vast majority of people don't care.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Stormcloak army was much like Hitler's armies during WW2, tons of people in Hitler's armies didn't actually like him, or believe in what he did, or cared if he won, they did it to protect their home, but if they lost, ohhh well.

Fun fact....when you start trying to shift goalposts around to serve your own needs, you lose. Your argument doesn't work and there are valid reasons to explain why. You don't get to try and sweep logic off the table because it's kicking your face in.

By the way, Falmer can't see. They hear. If you're muffled and soundless you can literally walk up to their faces in plain sight because they can't see. They are by far the most hilarious faction to be dealing with when you're a Sneak oriented character because it's so damn easy. Oh and finally? Hitler picked up massive popularity after he came to power by actively proving he was capable of providing effective government, and later the 'Hitler Myth' was created as his popularity remained until Germany began to truly fail. Claiming Hitlers armies were comprised of people who hated him (at least before the total collapse of German war efforts in the face of the Allies) is utterly ignorant bull**** intended to pander to an apologist stance of Nazi Germany that isn't required because the nation spent the past 60 years coming to terms with it. And in an ongoing theme, it also fails logic.

the point was that many stormcloaks may not exactly believe in Uflric's ideals and are instead doing it out of a patriotic and habitual "defending my home" belief.

No wonder you want to try and remove logic from the game, considering how little sense you make.

No-one's home is under threat. No-one's home is under attack or even duress. The Empire is the status quo in every way and has been for a millenium. The rebellion is constructed upon a platform of actively attacking and changing what has been the state of affairs for more generations than most families in Skyrim are even going to remember. The people defending their homes are in the Legion because the rebellion is the aggressor.

Edited by Khorak, 10 October 2012 - 08:32 PM.