65 replies to this topic

[sajuukkhar9000]

Fun fact....when you start trying to shift goalposts around to serve your own needs, you lose. Your argument doesn't work and there are valid reasons to explain why. You don't get to try and sweep logic off the table because it's kicking your face in.

By the way, Falmer can't see. They hear. If you're muffled and soundless you can literally walk up to their faces in plain sight because they can't see. They are by far the most hilarious faction to be dealing with when you're a Sneak oriented character because it's so damn easy. Oh and finally? Hitler picked up massive popularity after he came to power by actively proving he was capable of providing effective government, and later the 'Hitler Myth' was created as his popularity remained until Germany began to truly fail. Claiming Hitlers armies were comprised of people who hated him (at least before the total collapse of German war efforts in the face of the Allies) is utterly ignorant bull**** intended to pander to an apologist stance of Nazi Germany that isn't required because the nation spent the past 60 years coming to terms with it. And in an ongoing theme, it also fails logic.

If the Flamer could only hear how exactly do they use bows and ranged magic with perfect accuracy? How is that even after being detected and then you stop moving, this denying the Falmer the ability to hear you they are still perfectly able to find you?

Also, saying there weren't many people in Hitler's armies that didn't like him is like saying people being in the American military, but not liking it, is a myth also. There's plenty of people, in every military branch around the world, that don't like the government they serve, but still fight anyways. Saying that everyone is a blind fanatic that totally agrees and supports the government they serve, now THAT is ignorant.

No wonder you want to try and remove logic from the game, considering how little sense you make.

No-one's home is under threat. No-one's home is under attack or even duress. The Empire is the status quo in every way and has been for a millenium. The rebellion is constructed upon a platform of actively attacking and changing what has been the state of affairs for more generations than most families in Skyrim are even going to remember. The people defending their homes are in the Legion because the rebellion is the aggressor.

Really so
-Being banned from worshiping your god
-Having your friends and family being dragged off in the middle of the night by Thalmor Justiciars
-Being forced to remain part of an Empire they view as dieing and taking them down with them
-Being forces to follow laws made up by the Aldmeri Dominion, a force that wants to purge humanity from reality itself
Doesn't qualify as being under attack?

What world do you live in?

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 10 October 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[RighthandofSithis]

No-one's home is under threat. No-one's home is under attack or even duress. The Empire is the status quo in every way and has been for a millenium. The rebellion is constructed upon a platform of actively attacking and changing what has been the state of affairs for more generations than most families in Skyrim are even going to remember. The people defending their homes are in the Legion because the rebellion is the aggressor.

Usual reactionary dribble.

Lets, first come to terms with what the rebellion is. It is a Class War between the Nordic and Imperial Aristocracy. The Nords are fighting what has become, a foreign power sucking the essence out of Skyrim.

While true, the Nords did join the Empire almost willingly, in the last 200 years (and specifically, the last 25 years), the Empire has degenerated from a prosperous society, into one rather desperate to survive, and in fact, will do anything to do so.

The Stormcloaks, therefore, are indeed fighting to defend their homeland. They are patriots, trying to achieve national independence from a parasitic Empire.

[fraquar]

No-one's home is under threat. No-one's home is under attack or even duress. The Empire is the status quo in every way and has been for a millenium. The rebellion is constructed upon a platform of actively attacking and changing what has been the state of affairs for more generations than most families in Skyrim are even going to remember. The people defending their homes are in the Legion because the rebellion is the aggressor.

How the Imperials handle the Thorald kidnapping says all that needs to be said. Instead of putting him in an Imperial prison they allow the Thalmor to torture him instead.

THAT is what the Stormcloaks are fighting. Even a blind man can see there is something seriously wrong with that picture.

Edited by fraquar, 13 October 2012 - 12:09 AM.

[lquebecois]

It's already been stated why Whiterun was attacked; it is the most strategically important location in Skyrim. Bar none. It's positioning is completely dominating. Frankly, the setup of the province itself doesn't make a damn bit of sense, since Whiterun would be so ludicrously wealthy as to be the clear capital of the province. It's got all the arable land and dominates the trade routes. Hell, if the province made any sense whatsoever Skyrim would practically be a city state crammed into the arable flatlands right there in the middle. The Reach isn't 'hilly', it is simply a mountain range. Haafingar gets to choose between a mountain and a marsh. Hjaalmarch doesn't, it's just all marsh. The Pale is siberia with fewer trees, Winterhold has icebergs, Eastmarch is half tundra and half volcanic national park or something (and mountain, of course), while the Rift and Falkreath are starting to look more and more like some sort of Beastman infested gloomy forest of death from Warhammer Fantasy (though realistically huge tracts would have been majorly logged out and turned into agricultural land by now).

If you think it doesn't make sense to control the centre of Skyrim, then you can't even play tic-tac-toe properly.

Regarding how Ulfric goes about it, he's leading a popular revolution. When you deliver the axe to Balgruuf, they explain the reasoning right in front of your damn face. Ulfric has already shown his personal might, he now has to show the might of his army. This revolution won't work if it is merely Ulfric wandering around the Holds, challenging every Jarl to personal combat. In the end Ulfric has to force the issue, and he chose to give Balgruuf a chance to join him instead of potentially ending up attacking a city and army that could have joined him. Frankly, Balgruuf was hoping the situation would deal with itself and was simply stupid to think he could hold on to his neutrality. He should have come out and picked a side the second the Imperial gambit to capture and execute Ulfric failed (game called on account of dragon), and made his city ready. He did not. The laughable state of Whiterun's walls and defenses mark a very considerable failure on his part (and on the part of Bethesda in the generally crap and rundown appearance of what is supposed to be a populous, wealthy, and VERY powerful province).

Actually Balgruuf hinted from the very beginning that he most probably would side with the imperials. As he abhors treason and he views the storm cloak rebellion as treason.
He just wants to delay the inevitable. Yes, Whiterun dominates strategically but you overstate its dominance in trade matters.

Whiterun dominates the inner trade of skyrim but Rift and Falkreach control the trade to Cyrodiil, The Reach and Haafingar control the trade to High Rock and Hammerfell, and Winterhold, The Rift and Eastmarch control the trade to Morrowind. Well, Winterhold in theory at least.
The Sea Trade with the rest of the World completely runs over Haafingar, The Pale and Eastmarch .

Also the only export product Whiterun has in real quantities is agricultural produce. The Reach has the Mines, together with Haafingar. The Rift and Falkreach have fishing, a few mines and masses of wood.
Eastmarch has a few mines but mostly that's it.

Also you have to consider that The Great War (a war that was nearly as destructive as the 30 years war) ended only 26 years ago.
That the Reach rebellion of the Foresworn was only officially ended 25 years ago.
That the Thalmor are harassing the Nord the last 26 years, and you can assume that they are responsible for many of the... downfalls.

Also, some of us know that Ulfric is

Spoiler

an Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor, tasked with generating as much unrest in Skyrim as possible

.
That is reason enough for me to NEVER side with the Stormcloaks.

source of the spoilers please.

edit: i've just read it, thanks.

Edited by lquebecois, 16 October 2012 - 05:11 AM.

[Stemin]

How the Imperials handle the Thorald kidnapping says all that needs to be said. Instead of putting him in an Imperial prison they allow the Thalmor to torture him instead.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff? The letter says he's in the hands of the Thalmor. Just how exactly are the Imperials going to put him in an Imperial prison and where does it say anywhere that they handed him over to the Thalmor? Or do you suggest they plunge the whole empire into war again because one guy was abducted instead of pursuing a political attempt to get him back first (something that was an option if the quest wasn't bugged).

Seriously the moderators should just lock these threads as soon as they start. They never go anywhere and they're always the same nonsense.

Next you're going to respond and point out how the Thalmor are kidnapping people all over, and then I'm going to point out that none of this started until Ulfric started his stupid rebellion, giving the Thalmor reasonable cause to search Skyrim. Yadda yadda yadda.

Edited by Stemin, 20 October 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Khorak]

If the Flamer could only hear how exactly do they use bows and ranged magic with perfect accuracy?

....with their other senses. Seriously, what the hell? <insults removed>? The Falmer are the usual 'blind but use sound like Daredevil' trope.

Excuse me, I need to go and tell bats that they're doing it wrong and should be running into everything.

How is that even after being detected and then you stop moving, this denying the Falmer the ability to hear you they are still perfectly able to find you?

Oh my God! The game system isn't perfect!

Look, <**********>, it's an utterly undeniable fact that the Falmer are blind and that they rely heavily upon sound instead. And to underline how utterly bankrupt your argument is, Bethesda even did their best to represent this in-game by literally making the Falmer blind for the purposes of the sneak mechanic. You were wrong about the Falmer being blind in game mechanics, straight up. What you're doing now is pathetic floundering about and nitpicking in the hopes you can still be right. You're not. At this point it's so blatant the Falmer are blind in lore AND gameplay that the question, for those of us who aren't laughably crap at this anyway, is to wonder how the outliers of game mechanics that you're now trying to lean on can be integrated into the reality, instead of going, "Well! Guess they're not blind!"

Also, saying there weren't many people in Hitler's armies that didn't like him is like saying people being in the American military, but not liking it, is a myth also. There's plenty of people, in every military branch around the world, that don't like the government they serve, but still fight anyways. Saying that everyone is a blind fanatic that totally agrees and supports the government they serve, now THAT is ignorant.

Concession accepted. Your response has....no substance. <insults removed>

Really so
-Being banned from worshiping your god
-Having your friends and family being dragged off in the middle of the night by Thalmor Justiciars
-Being forced to remain part of an Empire they view as dieing and taking them down with them
-Being forces to follow laws made up by the Aldmeri Dominion, a force that wants to purge humanity from reality itself
Doesn't qualify as being under attack?

What world do you live in?

No, it doesn't qualify as being under attack. Unfortunately, <personal insults removed>

The Empire is the status quo. In fact, the Nords explicitly, and actually peacefully even to the point of pulling a turncoat on their previous allies, integrated themselves into the Empire. The Empire is the status quo. Skyrim is Imperial territory. And it has been for almost a millennium.

I can't break it down into small enough words for your complete lack of thinking faculties to understand. I really can't. For everyone else, the Stormcloak rebellion is 'defending their home' in the same way a rebellion in southwest England would be 'defending their home' of Wessex against the English parliament. They're not defending their home. They're just straight up rebelling against the well established, legitimate authority because it's making crap decisions and they want to secede. Their home is not under attack. Yeah, some laws have passed that they don't like, they're restrictive in the way of religious freedom and allow the 'winners' of the last war into the country to enforce it, but they're in no way 'under attack'. They're doing the attacking.

It's no wonder the media and propaganda in general is so easy <snide remark removed>
"I'm defending my home!"
"He said it out loud, it must be true! Critical thought and logic are for CHUMPS! Evict the oppressors!"

[sajuukkhar9000]

....with their other senses. Seriously, what the hell? How can you be this stupid? The Falmer are the usual 'blind but use sound like Daredevil' trope.

Excuse me, I need to go and tell bats that they're doing it wrong and should be running into everything.

You are aware Daredevil's other senses are only anywhere near as good as they are because he was blinded by radioactive materials that caused "comic book cliche mutations" that made his other senses FAR better then they would have been had he just been normally blinded? He doesn't just have normal human hearing that was slightly enhanced by having one of his other senses go out, he has "radioactive comic book mutant" hearing.

Bats use echolocation, they don't just hear better, they actually can see to some extent.

The Falmer however have neither radioactive mutant superpowers, or echolocation, so they don't have any reason to be able to function as well as Daredevil, bats, or even as well as their in-game portrayals, do.

Do you even know how the things you are trying to use to justify your argument work? Because you seemingly don't.

Oh my God! The game system isn't perfect!

Look, moron, it's an utterly undeniable fact that the Falmer are blind and that they rely heavily upon sound instead. And to underline how utterly bankrupt your argument is, Bethesda even did their best to represent this in-game by literally making the Falmer blind for the purposes of the sneak mechanic. You were wrong about the Falmer being blind in game mechanics, straight up. What you're doing now is pathetic floundering about and nitpicking in the hopes you can still be right. You're not. At this point it's so blatant the Falmer are blind in lore AND gameplay that the question, for those of us who aren't laughably crap at this anyway, is to wonder how the outliers of game mechanics that you're now trying to lean on can be integrated into the reality, instead of going, "Well! Guess they're not blind!"

Yes but relying on sound alone doesn't account for having archers, now if they had echolocation, or some sort of magical super powers like Daredevil, then the Flamer being as good as they are would be justified, but there is no hint that they do.

The game is internally inconsistent because it offers no reasonable, as much as a world of magic can be reasonable, explanation for their skills, as being just blind doesn't account for their markmanship using neither real-world, or game-world, logic.

Furthermore, I never denied the fact that the Flamer were blind, nor did I ever imply that they weren't.

Concession accepted. Your response has....no substance. Your idiot blithering doesn't mean squat in the face of all those inconvenient historical facts about Hitlers popularity....up until it became obvious the country was going to be brutally conquered.

And those historical facts don't negate that there were some people who were in Hitler's armies while not actually agreeing with him.

Most people did belive in him, and he was really popular, a fact I never denied.

No, it doesn't qualify as being under attack. Unfortunately, randomwordsalad9000 is our best evidence for the existence of humans with no brain and completely ignored....the entire point.

The Empire is the status quo. In fact, the Nords explicitly, and actually peacefully even to the point of pulling a turncoat on their previous allies, integrated themselves into the Empire. The Empire is the status quo. Skyrim is Imperial territory. And it has been for almost a millennium.

I can't break it down into small enough words for your complete lack of thinking faculties to understand. I really can't. For everyone else, the Stormcloak rebellion is 'defending their home' in the same way a rebellion in southwest England would be 'defending their home' of Wessex against the English parliament. They're not defending their home. They're just straight up rebelling against the well established, legitimate authority because it's making crap decisions and they want to secede. Their home is not under attack. Yeah, some laws have passed that they don't like, they're restrictive in the way of religious freedom and allow the 'winners' of the last war into the country to enforce it, but they're in no way 'under attack'. They're doing the attacking.

It's no wonder the media and propaganda in general is so easy when the target is someone like you.
"I'm defending my home!"
"He said it out loud, it must be true! Critical thought and logic are for CHUMPS! Evict the oppressors!"

So being detained, and in the player character's case nearly executed, without fair trial or due process isn't considered being under attack? Then what is?


Its no wonder laws like indefinite detention without trial, and warrantless wiretapping, get passed and stay around with people like you around.

Well the "established/legitimate" authority said so, so it doesn't matter if we don't like it were just supposed to sit down and take it in the ass even if it means the government can randomly drag you off based purely on suspicion without any real evidence or trial.

Next you are going to be saying that if part of the WGC allowed The Thalmor to kill anyone they pleased at whim the Stormclaoks trying to stop it would be wrong because "the established and legitimate authority" said it was ok.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 25 October 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[RighthandofSithis]

Concession accepted. Your response has....no substance. Your idiot blithering doesn't mean squat in the face of all those inconvenient historical facts about Hitlers popularity....up until it became obvious the country was going to be brutally conquered.

And those historical facts don't negate that there were some people who were in Hitler's armies while not actually agreeing with him.

Most people did belive in him, and he was really popular, a fact I never denied.

Erwin Rommel. He disagreed with the official Nazi doctrine on a few key issues (such as the holocaust), yet he was an influential General.

He led the Afrika Corps effectivly, and had disagreed with Hitler's insistence on fighting on the beaches of Normandy (an insistence that contributed majorly to their loss of the battle)

No, it doesn't qualify as being under attack. Unfortunately, randomwordsalad9000 is our best evidence for the existence of humans with no brain and completely ignored....the entire point.

The Empire is the status quo. In fact, the Nords explicitly, and actually peacefully even to the point of pulling a turncoat on their previous allies, integrated themselves into the Empire. The Empire is the status quo. Skyrim is Imperial territory. And it has been for almost a millennium.

I can't break it down into small enough words for your complete lack of thinking faculties to understand. I really can't. For everyone else, the Stormcloak rebellion is 'defending their home' in the same way a rebellion in southwest England would be 'defending their home' of Wessex against the English parliament. They're not defending their home. They're just straight up rebelling against the well established, legitimate authority because it's making crap decisions and they want to secede. Their home is not under attack. Yeah, some laws have passed that they don't like, they're restrictive in the way of religious freedom and allow the 'winners' of the last war into the country to enforce it, but they're in no way 'under attack'. They're doing the attacking.

It's no wonder the media and propaganda in general is so easy when the target is someone like you.
"I'm defending my home!"
"He said it out loud, it must be true! Critical thought and logic are for CHUMPS! Evict the oppressors!"

The Empire attacked the Nordic people. Just because there is a status quo, doesn't mean that revolutionaries are always the aggressors. In fact, as a revolutionary myself, I find that insulting.

In a number of respects, the Empire is the aggressor. Looking at it as a Class War, you can see how the Imperial Aristocracy/Elder Council has been attacking the Nordic aristocracy, such as denying them independence/solidarity and forcing the WGC on them.

From a national liberation point of view, well, its basically an issue of the Empire that the Nords supported being dead. As Galmar said, the Empire died the moment the Empire signed the WGC.

[LadyMilla]

....

Personal insults are unacceptable on this forum, and for this reason Strike #1 has been issued.
If you cannot participate in a debate by using logical arguments and reasoning only then please refrain from posting.
This reminder also applies to all participants.

-LM

[Inquart]

If I may, I think that Ulfric ordered an attack on Whiterun - as he himself put it in conversation with Galmar Stone-Fist - to send a stronger message; to show Balgruuf that any form of neutrality in this war will not be tolerated, that you are either with the Stormcloaks or against them (and thus, in their narrow point of view, also against Skyrim). Balgruuf, despite being both an Imperial sympathizer and Thalmor-hating Talos worshipper at heart, tried to keep Whiterun off the war for as long as possible to protect his people; Ulfric, on the other hand, wanted to show him and anyone else that his so-called Stormcloak Uprising or Civil War in Skyrim is a conflict in which everyone - from lowly farmers to the Jarls themselves - will sooner or later have to take one side or another. Plus, Whiterun as a city - as it was said before - occupies a strategic place in Skyrim, so that might have been one of the reasons, too.