634 replies to this topic

[brokenergy]

*snip*.

You just proved my point even further with the books and comics. The Stolen Throne is about a liberation of a nation of the hands of an empire and Gaider's comics is about Alistair's personal quest and how it changes him, the rest is just background info about what is happening and has no relevence with the games what so ever. You may feel that way about how the series is being potrayed but Bioware and Gaider have stated over and over that DA is mainly about Thedas, with future DA dealing with Qunari or internal struggles not just Chantry or Grey Wardens. Even DA2 is more about the failures of society in Thedas in general and the Mage vs Templar issue is only mentioned in the 3rd Act. They wanted to go into this issue for a while now but it doesn't mean that they will rehash it all over again for the sake of it, no one that I know wants to play warden 2.0, no one. Gaider wouldn't being any old concepts back for the sake of it.

[naomis8329]

I never said we'd be playing as a Warden. I said it would be interesting to play as the child of the Warden and Morrigan. Having the soul of an old god and mixing that in with the Chantry/Mage conflict would have amazing ramifications. As the end of Act 3 is all about the Chantry and mage issue I would say that it is the important factor within the game. The undercurrent all the way through the game (DA2) was the choices you made with regard to mages and templars. There were other issues but they were the main ones that meant anything.

But it is all subjective as I said. The stolen throne is about the regaining of the throne of Ferelden, but this is mainly to give background to the games. It establishes some lore and points of fact and these can be read in any way to be honest. It doesn't necessarily mean that Alistair if Maric and Fiona's son (although I personally do believe that) as we have other contenders available if you want to look at similarities.

As I said it all depends upon how you played the game and what you believe from the storyline's both major and minor.

It will be interesting to see how many things are tied up in DA3 and how they leave it if there is to be a DA4.

Time will tell

[brokenergy]

I never said we'd be playing as a Warden. I said it would be interesting to play as the child of the Warden and Morrigan. Having the soul of an old god and mixing that in with the Chantry/Mage conflict would have amazing ramifications. As the end of Act 3 is all about the Chantry and mage issue I would say that it is the important factor within the game. The undercurrent all the way through the game (DA2) was the choices you made with regard to mages and templars. There were other issues but they were the main ones that meant anything.

You mean the boy which half the people didn't even get? Do you know how many people would be angry if BioWare canonizes the DR as well as forcing people to play as a guy?

But it is all subjective as I said. The stolen throne is about the regaining of the throne of Ferelden, but this is mainly to give background to the games. It establishes some lore and points of fact and these can be read in any way to be honest. It doesn't necessarily mean that Alistair if Maric and Fiona's son (although I personally do believe that) as we have other contenders available if you want to look at similarities.

Alistair is not Fiona's kid, people need to get over.

[musicalfrog7]

What I think we need to remember is there are two focuses of the DA series storyline.

1. The blight: basically an end of the world saga incorporating the corruption of old gods by blighted creatures created by mankind, if chantry doctrine is to be believed.
2. The ongoing struggle between the Chantry/Templars and mages, again this is based upon the doctrine preached by the Chantry. As with all religions, the written word is open to interpretation and the Chantry has decided what should be believed. I think (after reading Asunder) that we will find that the word of Andraste has been taken too literally and that maybe, just maybe there is a twist in all this were She is concerned

Incorrect, Dragon Age is about Thedas, not Grey Wardens killing darkspawn or Chantry's problems. Nothing is off limits.

I'm skeptical. I don't expect to buy it unless I hear good things and even then I'll still go in being skeptical, considering it more of a sequel to DA2 than DA: O but within the same universe.

I'm not a fan of the mage/templar (chantry) focus.
I'm not a fan of the dialogue wheel. (I liked it for ME but don't like it for DA)
I'm not a fan of how they Shephardize the main character.
I'm not a fan of the human focus and would much rather be a dwarf.

*For the sake of this post, I'm not defending BioWare's choice of VP (which was chosen when they first did ME and were moving in that direction before EA but that's a whole other kettle of fish), just pointing out some things*

Do you want to know something? I like to play an elven qunari because I like the pointy ears and I find the qunari quite interesting. I was bummed that I would not play as an elf in DA3 but I learned to deal with it. The Creative Designer, Mike Laidlaw was bummed too and in a perfect world he would have all options available for everyone. But it's mainly story reasons that human is chosen and I learned to deal with it. I like the wheel too only because I hate being mute while everyone spoke (similarly I hate being voiced while everyone looked like puppets), it's jarring for me. It's also jarring knowing everything in advance, I louthe metagaming, it's a horrible thing and should never be used as a role playing feature by gamers. But I digress.

Imagine this, write down a sentence and say the same sentence out loud to someone. How do you feel repeating the same thing over again?

Similarly, watch this scene from The Witcher



How do you feel when the PC repeats the same sentence over again?

Do you want to know how I felt? It was weird and I just skipped the scenes because I felt nothing could be gained by repeating something that I already knew. Granted I understand that what you really want is character consistency while playing the game. One way is to add icons, which gives the idea of what your character wants to say. This is similar to Origins but you didn't noticed it because there was no icons. The second is to go Deus Ex/AP route and give direct quotes like Diplomatic or Direct or Charming etc. One thing is clear is that the writing team will try to make things clearer for you before you make your choice and know that the wheel can put more dialouge branches without a list (6 for questions/ 6 for dialouge progression).

I understand that you feel a bit underwelmed and disappointed about DA3's direction but please sit around and discuss. There is a year of info and the crew will give as much info without ruining the game. Hopefully you can make your choice then

Roleplaying is my everything. And when I say roleplaying I really mean roleplaying since a lot of people do not know what it means. So, I mean getting behind the character, getting in her head, seeing through her eyes, establishing a personal identity and history.

When I made my DA character I gave her a set of personality traits. I do not allow myself to pursue the direction of a game with my own whims.

Through a lack of voiced PC dialogue I can better RP my character because the lack of voice makes the things she saysmore subjective, more subject to interpretation. I can imagine her voice, the intentions and emotions in her voice, her quirks.

And all of that is washed away with voiced PC dialogue. I am no longer playing my character. I am simply selecting what someone else's character gets to say. But don't get me wrong, I love ME. And I think the dialogue wheel really works for it. But the dialogue wheel is not a straight upgrade of a voiceless PC. It is a side grade. And there lies my issue. It is okay to use the dialogue wheel but there is also nothing wrong with the old way. Both systems have their pros and cons.

So, because the dialogue wheel is not necessarily a better creature. And voiceless PCs are not necessarily inferior, it irritates me that DA has to be Mass Effectified. This is a game that was intended to be a throwback to Baldur's Gate. I strongly believe that most changes were brought on by EA due to the huge success of ME.

The different RPGs should have their own identity. And that is why I am upset about a dialogue wheel in DA.



Also I don't know what to say in regards to your point on repeated dialogue because I am legitimately confused about what you are trying to say about it.

Edited by musicalfrog7, 30 October 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[brokenergy]

*snip*

Can I request that you never compare a cRPG to Pen and Paper ever again? Because cRPGs are limiting in content and choice (I'm the dragonborn, yay ). If anything, I treat them as enterainment products rather than a virtual RPG.

Moving on

Have a voice PC really has nothing to do with EA, or KoA would have a voice pc as well. I louthe using that as an excuse because it's always a cheap cop out argument that brings nothing new to the table. BioWare has been moving this way since BG2, you really had no choice in defining your charcter from the start or I would have played anyone but Revan, Shepard, Warden, Baalspawn, Hawke etc. You are ALWAYS confined with what the writer intends and you always had the three choices + questions, which in total leave 7 dialouge paths. What DA2 did was that they didn't even had time to implement all they want and hence what we got, which is sad but I still like DA2 more than Origins. I'm really sorry that you feel that BioWare is moving away from what you PERCIEVE as "the spritual successor of BG2" also known as marketing garbage (same was said about ME being the "spiritual successor of KOTOR" and look how it turned out ) to "Dragon Effect" (also known as fan vitrol garbage). I really understand how you feel because I know people who don't like the way DA has moved but they are willing to accept it, unlike some (not you personally but others). Some really want Origins 2.0 but I would argue that BioWare took more of a risk making the entire storyline about Hawke and it didn't get them where they wanted,

Since voice pc is comfirmed with all of BioWare's games in the future, we can discuss how they can improve them. Hence what I discussed earlier was the need to make the dialouge more clearer. They can go three different routes, what BW does now, direct responce or full lines.

What BW does now:

eg:

Player: I love you

PC: I just wanted to say that my feelings for you are more stronger than ever. I truely adore you.

Direct:

eg:

Player: Blunt

PC: Are you done?

and full lines:

Player: I like ice-cream

PC: I like ice-cream

You see how redundant the thrid choice is when using a voice pc? Replay that scene again that I showed and look carefully at the lines giving (or the lack of). I know some people like that idea but I find it redundant.

[naomis8329]

I'm sorry, you know Alistair is not Fiona's kid how? Who's kid is he? Should he not be entitled to the throne? Maybe then, Anders is Fiona's or even Cullen. They are the other Alistair/Cailan look alikes in the game.

To be honest, you can't tell people what they can or cannot believe. That's all part and parcel of Roleplaying. You can be who you want. Believe what you want within the game. Lore plays a great part for sure, however there is a great deal left uncertain (and I'm beginning to think that it has been done on purpose in many cases) so we can believe what we which and tie things together as we wish.

A lot of players have not even read the books and have played the game as is. I did and then I read the books to get some background on the game. That then helped me come to some decisions and realisations as to why things did what they did. Why Loghain was the way he was etc etc.

Then you have Asunder which of course ends the way it does and will either have a follow up or will just be DA3 and we can have the ending or our choice.

DA2 had a great deal of Templar/Mage choices from Act 1 through to Act 3. If you played as a rogue or warrior you had a sister who was a mage. You were raised to protect her etc. If you were a mage then you were instilled with a belief system generated by your father and this came out in Legacy and the fact that Malcolm was a Grey Warden (not by choice) also added to the intrigue there. Was he part of a sleeper cell, reporting to Duncan as to darkspawn movements? Lol I don't know we can believe whatever we wish as this is all part of being a Roleplayer, being who you want and making the choices you wish to make.

Hopefully the choices will be more dynamic for DA3 and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of all the consultation and fact finding that the developers have done. If they give us even a modicum of what we've asked for then I'll be happy. If they give us a tool kit, I'll be happier. I hope they do to be honest as that was a major thing that went against DA2 for a lot of people. I also hope that elves become the "beautiful" people that they are supposed to be once more and maybe even come into their own in DA3

That would give us something to look forward to for DA4 maybe, the elves decide to take back what's theirs maybe...

Who knows. We don't. We don't know what Mr Gaider will or wont do. We don't know how he thinks. Maybe even he doesn't and he's playing it all by ear too.

So let us agree to disagree, enjoy what's on offer and look forward to what may come

[musicalfrog7]

Can I request that you never compare a cRPG to Pen and Paper ever again? Because cRPGs are limiting in content and choice (I'm the dragonborn, yay ). If anything, I treat them as enterainment products rather than a virtual RPG.

I can understand that it's not your thing. I have a bad memory, and I honestly haven't looked back at my post, but I don't recall making a direct comparison to PnP. PnP is just one form of many forms of RP. There's mmo RP, instant messenger RP, forum RP, LARP, and possibly other forms that I am not mentioning. Dragon Age, Skyrim, and Mass Effect are all roleplay games. The idea of saying that they "are entertainment products rather than a virtual RPG" seems absurd to me. They are RPGs.

But the point I am getting at is there is nothing wrong with comparing 'a cRPG to a Pen and Paper'. (Although PnP is just one subsection of roleplay and is not the defining identity of it) That RPing in an RP game is a valid playstyle. That many RP in an RP game and are often not aware of it. That it is a playstyle upon which many games have been built around, including Bioware games.

But most importantly, that it is just what me and others like me enjoy. If you prefer to just go along with the ride of a story and not invest RP into it. That is wonderful. That is what you enjoy. At the same time, I find what I like to be wonderful. Of course, I am sad when games don't support my playstyle, but I am accepting that RP will eventually die out.

Moving on

Have a voice PC really has nothing to do with EA, or KoA would have a voice pc as well. I louthe using that as an excuse because it's always a cheap cop out argument that brings nothing new to the table. BioWare has been moving this way since BG2, you really had no choice in defining your charcter from the start or I would have played anyone but Revan, Shepard, Warden, Baalspawn, Hawke etc. You are ALWAYS confined with what the writer intends and you always had the three choices + questions, which in total leave 7 dialouge paths. What DA2 did was that they didn't even had time to implement all they want and hence what we got, which is sad but I still like DA2 more than Origins. I'm really sorry that you feel that BioWare is moving away from what you PERCIEVE as "the spritual successor of BG2" also known as marketing garbage (same was said about ME being the "spiritual successor of KOTOR" and look how it turned out ) to "Dragon Effect" (also known as fan vitrol garbage). I really understand how you feel because I know people who don't like the way DA has moved but they are willing to accept it, unlike some (not you personally but others). Some really want Origins 2.0 but I would argue that BioWare took more of a risk making the entire storyline about Hawke and it didn't get them where they wanted,

Since voice pc is comfirmed with all of BioWare's games in the future, we can discuss how they can improve them. Hence what I discussed earlier was the need to make the dialouge more clearer. They can go three different routes, what BW does now, direct responce or full lines.

What BW does now:

eg:

Player: I love you

PC: I just wanted to say that my feelings for you are more stronger than ever. I truely adore you.

Direct:

eg:

Player: Blunt

PC: Are you done?

and full lines:

Player: I like ice-cream

PC: I like ice-cream

You see how redundant the thrid choice is when using a voice pc? Replay that scene again that I showed and look carefully at the lines giving (or the lack of). I know some people like that idea but I find it redundant.

Mmm. For this stuff. Eh. It's all speculation. It really, truly is. My thoughts and feelings truly aren't any stronger than anyone else's because I don't actually work in the company. Whether or not they would use the dialogue wheel in DA even without EA? That's probably one of the most subjective things you could argue when concerning EA influences. My opinion comes from, not me wanting to play EA pinata, but because it sounds like something EA would do. EA lets Bioware do their own thing but they do have influences over the company that affect the quality of a game.

For instance, EA has control over things like deadlines and overall how many games Bioware is pumping out. Most people didn't read the press release article for when EA acquired Bioware despite it being linked right in front of them at the time. But it was very long and contained a bunch of business mumbo jumbo in it. Basically though, one of the most important parts states that they will make Bioware release a game each and every year.

It can be easy to break out the bat and beat on EA pinata, however, when one approaches the topic patiently and logically, they will find the situation all too familiar and all too coincidental, and....different. So, chances are yeah, as tiresome as it is to hear all the time, EA's acquisition of BW did change them.

The reasoning -I- think the Mass Effect similarities are there is 1. DA2 was honestly a filler game meant to cash in on the franchise. and 2. Because it felt like it was the marketing that drove it in that direction which is EA's domain.





But no, I didn't expect for them to ever go back to unvoiced PC options.
Admittedly, this post is a little pointless so I will go over the things that matter to me about it:

I like RPing. RPing may not be how you play your games. And you may think it doesn't make sense to RP in games like these. But others do. My characters from Skyrim and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines both have diaries. My playthroughs for DA and ME were 100% IC.

and

You prefer DA2. I prefer DA:O. We enjoy different things. We have different opinions on how EA affects BW. But neither of us can truly know because we don't work there.

Edited by musicalfrog7, 31 October 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[brokenergy]

I'm sorry, you know Alistair is not Fiona's kid how? Who's kid is he? Should he not be entitled to the throne? Maybe then, Anders is Fiona's or even Cullen. They are the other Alistair/Cailan look alikes in the game.

The whole hoopla of who's Alistair's mother was started by the fans, not Gaider. You are jumping into conclusions about who's Alistair's mum, not I.

To be honest, you can't tell people what they can or cannot believe. That's all part and parcel of Roleplaying. You can be who you want. Believe what you want within the game. Lore plays a great part for sure, however there is a great deal left uncertain (and I'm beginning to think that it has been done on purpose in many cases) so we can believe what we which and tie things together as we wish.

A lot of players have not even read the books and have played the game as is. I did and then I read the books to get some background on the game. That then helped me come to some decisions and realisations as to why things did what they did. Why Loghain was the way he was etc etc.

I'm not telling people what to believe but I'm telling them not to jump into conclusions, like half the fanbase did.

Then you have Asunder which of course ends the way it does and will either have a follow up or will just be DA3 and we can have the ending or our choice.

DA2 had a great deal of Templar/Mage choices from Act 1 through to Act 3. If you played as a rogue or warrior you had a sister who was a mage. You were raised to protect her etc. If you were a mage then you were instilled with a belief system generated by your father and this came out in Legacy and the fact that Malcolm was a Grey Warden (not by choice) also added to the intrigue there. Was he part of a sleeper cell, reporting to Duncan as to darkspawn movements? Lol I don't know we can believe whatever we wish as this is all part of being a Roleplayer, being who you want and making the choices you wish to make.

You have misunderstood my first point. You stated that:

What I think we need to remember is there are two focuses of the DA series storyline.

1. The blight: basically an end of the world saga incorporating the corruption of old gods by blighted creatures created by mankind, if chantry doctrine is to be believed.
2. The ongoing struggle between the Chantry/Templars and mages, again this is based upon the doctrine preached by the Chantry. As with all religions, the written word is open to interpretation and the Chantry has decided what should be believed. I think (after reading Asunder) that we will find that the word of Andraste has been taken too literally and that maybe, just maybe there is a twist in all this were She is concerned

I stated that there is more to DA than the Grey Wardens and the Chantry. The whole point of Ausnder/Calling/Stolen Throne is to give the player background. Just because those are the current issues being adressed, doesn't mean that they would be there in the future series. We still have the Ferelden's future, Qunari, Antiva, Rivain and the unknown lands beyond Thedas and they are much more interesting than the current issue. Not saying that they are dull but there is more to this world than meets the eye.

Hopefully the choices will be more dynamic for DA3 and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of all the consultation and fact finding that the developers have done. If they give us even a modicum of what we've asked for then I'll be happy. If they give us a tool kit, I'll be happier. I hope they do to be honest as that was a major thing that went against DA2 for a lot of people. I also hope that elves become the "beautiful" people that they are supposed to be once more and maybe even come into their own in DA3

We will see

So let us agree to disagree, enjoy what's on offer and look forward to what may come

Okay then.

I can understand that it's not your thing. I have a bad memory, and I honestly haven't looked back at my post, but I don't recall making a direct comparison to PnP. PnP is just one form of many forms of RP. There's mmo RP, instant messenger RP, forum RP, LARP, and possibly other forms that I am not mentioning. Dragon Age, Skyrim, and Mass Effect are all roleplay games. The idea of saying that they "are entertainment products rather than a virtual RPG" seems absurd to me. They are RPGs.

But the point I am getting at is there is nothing wrong with comparing 'a cRPG to a Pen and Paper'. (Although PnP is just one subsection of roleplay and is not the defining identity of it) That RPing in an RP game is a valid playstyle. That many RP in an RP game and are often not aware of it. That it is a playstyle upon which many games have been built around, including Bioware games.

But most importantly, that it is just what me and others like me enjoy. If you prefer to just go along with the ride of a story and not invest RP into it. That is wonderful. That is what you enjoy. At the same time, I find what I like to be wonderful. Of course, I am sad when games don't support my playstyle, but I am accepting that RP will eventually die out.

When everyone talks about cRPGs they immedately compare it to PnP. I love role playing, I love PS:T, IWD and BG and would love to see Wastelands 2, PE and other games to come out. But the problem I have is that they never create characters that I like and make the experence more inconsistant for me. DA2 was close to what I wanted and I love it warts and all and I admit that there is stuff to be done to improve the game, which was shown in the DLCs and DA3. I can play character without a voice but most of the time I insert myself as an observer rather than the PC. It's not that I dislike it per say but more like all speak or all don't. I don't like my characters to be mutes and transmit their thoughts. It's a very vaild consern for those who use this playstyle and doesn't make it any worse for your concerns

Mmm. For this stuff. Eh. It's all speculation. It really, truly is. My thoughts and feelings truly aren't any stronger than anyone else's because I don't actually work in the company. Whether or not they would use the dialogue wheel in DA even without EA? That's probably one of the most subjective things you could argue when concerning EA influences. My opinion comes from, not me wanting to play EA pinata, but because it sounds like something EA would do. EA lets Bioware do their own thing but they do have influences over the company that affect the quality of a game.

For instance, EA has control over things like deadlines and overall how many games Bioware is pumping out. Most people didn't read the press release article for when EA acquired Bioware despite it being linked right in front of them at the time. But it was very long and contained a bunch of business mumbo jumbo in it. Basically though, one of the most important parts states that they will make Bioware release a game each and every year.

It can be easy to break out the bat and beat on EA pinata, however, when one approaches the topic patiently and logically, they will find the situation all too familiar and all too coincidental, and....different. So, chances are yeah, as tiresome as it is to hear all the time, EA's acquisition of BW did change them.

The reasoning -I- think the Mass Effect similarities are there is 1. DA2 was honestly a filler game meant to cash in on the franchise. and 2. Because it felt like it was the marketing that drove it in that direction which is EA's domain.

They may share some features but has it ever occured to you that perhaps that the people who are making the game thought that ME had some good ideas? Not all ideas come out of head office and I would advise anyone who has no knowleadge of the internal structure of BioWare and EA to make up crazy ideas. Just because you see something smiliar in two series doesn't mean that it is all EA's fault, similarly if you dislike ME2 and ME3 and DA2 doesn't mean that EA has ruined them, when NWN and Sonic left a lot to be desired.

But no, I didn't expect for them to ever go back to unvoiced PC options.
Admittedly, this post is a little pointless so I will go over the things that matter to me about it:

I like RPing. RPing may not be how you play your games. And you may think it doesn't make sense to RP in games like these. But others do. My characters from Skyrim and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines both have diaries. My playthroughs for DA and ME were 100% IC.

and

You prefer DA2. I prefer DA:O. We enjoy different things. We have different opinions on how EA affects BW. But neither of us can truly know because we don't work there.

Fair enough

[jhardingame]

Well, now we know there'a screenshot.

http://www.eurogamer...ses-frostbite-2

Edited by jhardingame, 15 November 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[brokenergy]

Evil Chris has stated that it was not a screenshot but more concept art, sorry to burst your bubbles people.

http://social.biowar...x/14930718&lf=8