131 replies to this topic

[blackninja50]

 

@Lachdonin The games are all that matter, the background is simply that the background which I should point out contradicts itself heavily (just look at daggerfall and arena) making itself almost completely unreliable.

Again, wrong. Totally, absolutely wrong. And i don;t often go so far as to use the W word, prefering terms like "dissagree", but in this case i think Wrong is the most apt term

First, the background does not contradict its self. Witht he exception of some information in Arena (which was the product of a generation of 1-off game titles with poorly established worlds) it all remains valid, and has simply been expanded upon. Alduin was first mentioned as the World Eater in Daggerfall, and in Skyrim they expanded upon that established background. Jyggalag likewise was first mentioned in Daggerfall with a role to be expanded upon later. Some seeming contradictions (such as the nature of Talos or the supposed fabrication of the Alessian Dragonbreak) are the results of internal scholarly debate, and are not, in fact, background contradictions but a representation of a living world. They show the depth of dialogue and intelectual progress within the TES universe, rather than being contradictory they show that the universe isn't just a linear, meta-description of a world.

Second, if the games were all that mattered, then the Nerevarine would win, hands down, becuase of Morrowind's broken gameplay dynamics. Spellbreaker + Trueflame + Helseth's Signet and you're indestructable. End of discussion.

Third, if you are going to totally dissmiss the signifigance of background in a universe, why are you even tryin to get involved in a preodminantly lore based discussion? I smell a troll in ninja's clothing.

 

 

Okay then, point out one large piece of lore related to the Nerevarine, Dragonborn or coc that is not from the games. The games are the background but as I said it's rather different from game to game so you can only go by the gameplay and as far as gameplay gos (and lore to) the coc defeats the old sheogorath (now Jyggalag) and clams his stuff and from the looks of it his power as well. No where is it shown or stated that the coc mantles with or is absorbed by sheogorath only that he becomes sheogorath/replaces sheogorath.

 

Also, to your indestructible combo from morrowind I have to words for that Mehrunes' Razor (it can kill anything killable in 1 lucky hit no matter it's gear) add in 100% damage reflect (totally doable) and the Nerevarine can lose vary fast. Of course the Dragonborn also has the razor..... 

Edited by blackninja50, 21 July 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[Lachdonin]

That... made next to no sense... With the exception of The Infernal City and Lord of Souls, virtually ALL background information is from the games. You do of course have some of the Kirkbride letters and Forum comments, but they tend to be specifically related to a question, such as who the Nede's were and what the relationship between Lorkhan and Akatosh is. 

 

References to the Nerevarine and his accomplishments can be found all over Skyrim and Oblivion, though admittedly the CoC is rarely mentioned (again, he was a bit player, not one of the real champions of the story...). You are also woefully misunderstanding what Mantling is, and totally ignoring the major background elements of Shivering Isles pertaining to the trials of Arden Sul (the previous Mantle of Sheogorath). 

 

Gameplay is irrelevant, because it is the Gameplay which changes. Just look at Spell Crafting. It's totally absent in Skyrim, while in Morrowind and Oblivion (moreso Morrowind, with its woefully broken everything) you can make an apocalyptic spell, and enough fortify magicka gear to destroy entire cities (Great fun by the way, Balmora never knew what hit it). If you base entirely on gameplay than the Dragonborn would be annihilated. 

 

Your Mehrunes Razor tactic is also unreliable, at best. You can either get the kill on the first hit, or have been bludgeoned to death by a Kwama Forager before the damn thing actually does anything.

 

Finally, again i have to ask, what are you doing here? This discussion has already been established as a lore based discussion. If you don't  learn the background and even go so far as to refuse to acknowledge its significance, you have no reason to even get involved in this discussion.

[nikikicat99]

Really, I think they're all the same. They're all 'Chosen Ones' by some higher power or the other...Daedric princes...the Aedra, and so on...and, it's possible that the Nerevarine is still alive since they never die of disease AND age. If the Nerevarine survived the Oblivion Crisis (poor Saint Jiub) and the Dragon Crisis, he/she may as well be alive. Even if the Nerevarine didn't have the power to not die of old age, he/she could still be alive since in the canon since, Nerevarine was, by default, a Dark elf. They can live up to 300 years if they're lucky. Of course he/she would look like an old coot but that's beside the point. Plus, it's even suggested, according to the Elder Scrolls Wiki, that the Nerevarine made an expedition to Akavir and disappeared. So perhaps the Nerevarine is in Akavir doing who-knows-what. 

[Lachdonin]

Even if the Nerevarine didn't have the power to not die of old age, he/she could still be alive since in the canon since, Nerevarine was, by default, a Dark elf. They can live up to 300 years if they're lucky. Of course he/she would look like an old coot but that's beside the point. Plus, it's even suggested, according to the Elder Scrolls Wiki, that the Nerevarine made an expedition to Akavir and disappeared. So perhaps the Nerevarine is in Akavir doing who-knows-what. 

 

First, All Mer can live for a thousand years if their lucky. Altmer tend to make it there more often, with Dunmer being a rather close second. Barenziah lived for at least 400 years (439, actually) and could very well be alive still.

 

The story of the Nerevarine traveling to Akivir is also something which is subject to rumour and heresay. In a similar case, there are 3  different stories of what happened to Vivec. Some say the Nerevarine killed him, others that he was taken by the Daedra, and others still that he simply up and left. 

[sajuukkhar9000]

 

First, All Mer can live for a thousand years if their lucky. Altmer tend to make it there more often, with Dunmer being a rather close second. Barenziah lived for at least 400 years (439, actually) and could very well be alive still.

That's not 100% true. The average Mer lifespan is around the same as Berenziah, if lucky, not 1000.

 

Living for 1000 years, or longer, is something that requires magics to achieve.

[ub3rman123]

According to Interview with a Dark Elf, which may be of dubious canonicity, the span is between 100-180 years on average, with above 200 being unusual. (Questions asked by UESP's Dave Humphrey and answered in-character by Bethesda employees)

[Lehcar]

Never played Morrowind really. I never understood being a reincarnated dead elf. Especially since said elf was a saint, but you can still choose to be extremely evil. What is that all about?! I'm confused.

 

Protagonist of Oblivion is just an ordinary person who happens to be good at kicking butt using mortal methods. Kind of like Batman. Unless of course they're a vampire, like all of my characters, but that doesn't really matter.

 

Protagonist of Skyrim is totally souped up on God-given superpowers. I believe he/she will ascend to godhood and become the tenth Divine, like Talos and Arkay did. (though I'm not exactly sure how either of them managed to do that, but still.) Or at least, he/she will go to some higher plane of existence. "The place where gods go".

[sajuukkhar9000]

1. Never played Morrowind really. I never understood being a reincarnated dead elf. Especially since said elf was a saint, but you can still choose to be extremely evil. What is that all about?! I'm confused.

 

2. Protagonist of Oblivion is just an ordinary person who happens to be good at kicking butt using mortal methods. Kind of like Batman. Unless of course they're a vampire, like all of my characters, but that doesn't really matter.

 

3. Protagonist of Skyrim is totally souped up on God-given superpowers. I believe he/she will ascend to godhood and become the tenth Divine, like Talos and Arkay did. (though I'm not exactly sure how either of them managed to do that, but still.) Or at least, he/she will go to some higher plane of existence. "The place where gods go".

 

1. Being made a saint only means you did a whole bunch of stuff that people liked. It doesnt prevent you fom doing evil things.

 

2. The protagonist of Oblivion is believed to be a Shezzarine, an avatar of Shezzar, which is the Imperial's version of Lorkhan, just like Pelinal Whitestrake, Ysmir wulfharth, Tiber Septim, and Zurin Arctus were. He is not just a normal man.

 

3. Talos became a divine because he is Lorkhan reborn, and took Lorkhan's place in the pantheon of gods as the 9th. arkay didn't ascend, he always was, the story of him being a shop keeper is just that, a story.

[Lachdonin]

 

 

First, All Mer can live for a thousand years if their lucky. Altmer tend to make it there more often, with Dunmer being a rather close second. Barenziah lived for at least 400 years (439, actually) and could very well be alive still.

That's not 100% true. The average Mer lifespan is around the same as Berenziah, if lucky, not 1000.

 

Living for 1000 years, or longer, is something that requires magics to achieve.

 

 

We'll disagree on that one. The Real Barenziah states Mer are blessed with 'Thousand Year lifespans', though it can be assumed that few even approach the outer limits of their natural life. a lot can go wrong in a single century lifespan of a Human, let alone the lives of Mer. It is certain, however, that some Mer, such as Fyr who was supposedly about 4,000 years old, and Lachesis who was almost 3000 when he disappeared  can extend their lifespans far beyond the norm, or even its outer limits, through magic. 

Now... There is very limited information in support of the CoC being a Shezzarine, aside from the accumulation of the Crusader's artifacts. Even then, mortals had worn the artifacts before and gained from their power, so that in its self doesn't offer anymore than token support. It's far more likely that he was more like the Blades Agent from Daggerfall, a 'normal' hero rather than any divinely empowered on.

Second, the story about Arkay's mortal origins can be read as far more than 'just a story'. It can be seen as an echo of the re purposing of the Aedra with the creation of Mundus and the introduction of new domains (death did not exist before Mundus). It could also be a case of a poorly understood Mantling of Arkay. 

[sajuukkhar9000]

We'll disagree on that one. The Real Barenziah states Mer are blessed with 'Thousand Year lifespans', though it can be assumed that few even approach the outer limits of their natural life. a lot can go wrong in a single century lifespan of a Human, let alone the lives of Mer. It is certain, however, that some Mer, such as Fyr who was supposedly about 4,000 years old, and Lachesis who was almost 3000 when he disappeared  can extend their lifespans far beyond the norm, or even its outer limits, through magic. 

Now... There is very limited information in support of the CoC being a Shezzarine, aside from the accumulation of the Crusader's artifacts. Even then, mortals had worn the artifacts before and gained from their power, so that in its self doesn't offer anymore than token support. It's far more likely that he was more like the Blades Agent from Daggerfall, a 'normal' hero rather than any divinely empowered on.

Second, the story about Arkay's mortal origins can be read as far more than 'just a story'. It can be seen as an echo of the re purposing of the Aedra with the creation of Mundus and the introduction of new domains (death did not exist before Mundus). It could also be a case of a poorly understood Mantling of Arkay. 

 

I believe the real Barenziah meant that Mer can live to around 1000, but most of them never make it that far due to war, disease, famina, etc. etc., which makes the average Mer's lifespan around 200-300 years. Barenziah was considered old at 400 in Tribunal. Its much like how people could live to 70-80 easily in the medieval day, but the "average" human lifespan was 30 because of how many people died during infancy.

 

The difference between the CoC, and others using the relics, is that the coC is the only one who gained them ALL, and was blessed by the gods to complete that which was missing, the power of the ninth, who was missing in Pelinal's days. The prophet even specifically says you are Pelinal reborn.

 

Both time and space didn't exist before Mundus either, everything just WAS everywhere, and everywhen, and nowhere, and nowhen, but we dont see the creation or new gods in order to explain the re-purposing of time and space when Mundus was made.

 

As for it being a mantling story, no god, outside of Akatosh and Lorkhan, has ever been mantled, and the story lacks the mythic symbolism needed in order to support a mantling.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 29 July 2013 - 02:52 AM.