131 replies to this topic

[Urtel]

god, i now spent hours thinking and reading this

You guys are deep into lore, so can you explain me a little

So my point is all of the heroes finally find their fate being driven by some daedra willing.

This makes me confused. (Actually im confused for few years lol) On the one hand, you say about their Aedra-kind appearing, but then, why they mess with daedric cults and even daedric princes? This is kind of against your Divine theory. I guess if you are Divine blessed, you should have kind of allergy on those cults and stuff, right?)

 

Then, if i am right, it means PC have nothing to do with "reborn" heroes of past. At least it affects dragonborn, because his fate is very closely tied with achieving knowledge, and with HM. Beth for sure shows us, that dragonborn is very far from divine worshipping.

 

Very different with the coc. For sure, daedra wanted him to stop excisting. He got the relics, showing his faith. And then comes Sheo. So this means, sheo just  removed such a powerful hero. Because its what daedra do. Try to keep mortals as weak as possible.

 

Im not talking about N cause it was long ago, so i dont remember details, that are important. Each word in dialogs is important.

 

So can somebody reply, if my thoughts are at least a little right?

Sorry for possible mistakes

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip.

Why would being a divine's champion make you "allergic" to the deadra?

 

The Divines don't care about the Daedra, so long as they dont try to invade the world, nor do they care if people are Daedra worshipers.

 

And no daedra dont try to keep mortals as weak as possible, if anything, they are about making mortals more powerful, so that they sow the world with change.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 29 July 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Lachdonin]

 

As for it being a mantling story, no god, outside of Akatosh and Lorkhan, has ever been mantled, and the story lacks the mythic symbolism needed in order to support a mantling.

 

 

We do, however, see the Mantling of Sheogorath not once, but twice (through the story of Arden Sul). We also witness the transformation of one god into another. The lack of certain mythic qualities of a story, in universe, does not necessarily invalidate its place as a mythic origin. Particularly when you consider the power of belief in The Elder Scrolls.

 

I will, admittedly, have to bow to your reading of the CoC's situation, as really, i hated Knights of the Nine and payed little attention during it.

 

Anyway, Urtel, i'm one who subscribes less to the idea that TES PC's are really agents of either the Divines or the Daedra (though they may have origins with either) but are rather agents of the Elder Scrolls themselves. They appear when something world-changing is about to happen, and make the final decision that changes the course of Mundus. When their decision(s) have been made, they are conveniently removed from history. With the CoC we have something of an answer, with the Mantling of Sheogorath, but both the Nerevarine and the Blades Agent have no such closure. Even with Sheogorath, it is not that the CoC actually remains at all, only the Daedra with some echo of the CoC's past but nothing of his soul or character.

 

Because the Scrolls record all that Was, Is, Could Be and Could have Been, they contain many unrealized realities which, it seems, have been relegated to a non-existence by the decisions of certain pivotal individuals. Few, if any of these 'deciders' have any real allegiance to either the Daedra or the Aedra.

 

Notable exceptions, of course, are Talos, who was/is/became Lorkhan, and the Nerevarine. However, in the later case, the Nerevarine only served Azura's agenda up until the defeat of Dagoth Ur, after which he was 'freed from the burden of destiny'. Of course, he still had a destiny, but at least he was freed of the one Azura had bound him to. 

 

Anyway, point being, none of the PC's are either Aedra or Daedra aligned, and there's really nothing to suggest that they can even pledge their souls to the Daedra like normal mortals. They are above the common rabble, and destined for greater things. 

[Urtel]

And no daedra dont try to keep mortals as weak as possible, if anything, they are about making mortals more powerful, so that they sow the world with change.

 

I meant general weakening of the mortal world. I thought all of them want to conquest plane of living. So appearing of heroes, who bring changes, is how they try to set chaos. Seems i was wrong all the time. *starts reading "Children's Anuad"*

 

 

 

Notable exceptions, of course, are Talos, who was/is/became Lorkhan, and the Nerevarine. However, in the later case, the Nerevarine only served Azura's agenda up until the defeat of Dagoth Ur, after which he was 'freed from the burden of destiny'. Of course, he still had a destiny, but at least he was freed of the one Azura had bound him to. 

 

Anyway, point being, none of the PC's are either Aedra or Daedra aligned, and there's really nothing to suggest that they can even pledge their souls to the Daedra like normal mortals. They are above the common rabble, and destined for greater things. 

 

 

I see now. I was missing this "epic-hero-superman" statement.

But then it makes even less sense for me.  No, it actually makes a lot more sense. Now, when i think about it.

 

Good point though, the scroll itself can be a source of power? So it can affect the battle of three, right?
 

[justwannaddl]

I am partial to the CoC because he was a nobody with no special fate who fought his way to become a god.  The amulet of kings pretty much emphasized how worthless you were in the beginning compared to Martin.  The Neverarine and the Dragonborne were born to be heroes with the dragonborn being constantly reminded that.

 

I'd say the CoC is the most powerful if only because he is the only one who can be reasonably said to have achieved 100% completion in the game without being accused of being contradictory.  Only a madgod would be the head of the dark brotherhood and the Divine Crusader at the same time.

 

Even if you assume all three did 100% completion, I'd say the CoC is more powerful than the Dragonborn.  Even if the Dragonborn were to somehow over power the CoC, one hit with the staff of Sheogorath is all the CoC needs to run away and backstab the DB with a poisoned arrow to the knee.  I wouldn't know about the Nerevarine though since I am not as familiar with his equipment.  In a cage fight, without any crafted items, I'd go with the first person to land a nonmagical paralyze attack, which makes the whole fight a toss up.

 

As to the arguments that we should not consider the CoC after Shivering Isles, if that is the case, why are people comparing him to the Nerevarine after his fight with Hircine or the DB after fighting MIraak?  Canonically, while Sheogorath may no longer be the CoC in Skyrim,  that does not mean he stops being the CoC immediately after Shivering Isles.  He did not gain the full powers of the original right after Shivering if at all but he did gain control of the Isles, several powers and most importantly, the staff. 

Edited by justwannaddl, 03 August 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Lachdonin]

As to the arguments that we should not consider the CoC after Shivering Isles, if that is the case, why are people comparing him to the Nerevarine after his fight with Hircine or the DB after fighting MIraak?  Cannonically, while Sheogorath may no longer be the CoC in Skyrim,  that does not mean he stops being the CoC immediately after Shivering Isles.  He did not gain the full powers of the original right after Shivering if at all but he did gain control of the Isles, several powers and most importantly, the staff. 

 

Those are totally different situations, though. The Dovahkiin didn't become Miraak. The Nerevarine didn't become Hercine. The CoC, on the other hand, DID become Sheogorath. In fact, once you complete the recreation of the Madstaff, you ARE Sheogorath, so even the last fight where you confront Jyggalag you aren't the CoC anymore. The lack of Sheogorath's powers was purely gameplay mechanics, and shouldn't be mistaken as anything else. 

[justwannaddl]

If it is possible to be the divine crusader and the listener to the dark brotherhood at the same time, it should be possible to be the CoC and hold the title of Sheogorath at the same time.

 

The lack of Sheogorath powers were not just pure gameplay mechanics.  As Jyggalag said after his defeat,

 

You now hold the mantle of madness, and Jyggalag is free to roam the voids of Oblivion once more. I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain. This Realm is yours. Perhaps you will grow to your station. Fare thee well, Sheogorath, Prince of Madness.

 

The new Sheogorath was still mortal at that point.   There is an argument that sometime in in between the 200 years that he may have ceased being the CoC but that isn't the case right after Shivering Isles.  Fair comparisons of the endgame characters would include CoC as Sheogorath right after defeating Jyggalag the same way you would compare the others. 

 

Of course, if the Sheogorath really is still the CoC in Skyrim, then barring CHIM (which could be argued all PCs possess) the CoC is likely the most powerful.  Then again, 200 year is plenty of time for the Nerevarine to become something far more in some far away land.  The Dovakiin though, looks fated to be Mora's toy for the rest of his violent life.

[Lachdonin]

We will have to agree to disagree about the interpretation of that quote. To my reading, Jyggalag's confusion over the status of Sheogorath represents the inherent madness of Sheogorath. He is everything and nothing, god and mortal, king and peasant. Jyggalag states, mater of fact, that the CoC is no more, and you are Sheogorath, thus the achievement can't be attributed to the CoC.

 

But, really, we've been over this several times over the last 11 pages, and i'm getting rather tired of explaining how mantling works, sooo.... Shall we agree that there are some interpretative differences?

[justwannaddl]

When exactly did Jyggalag say the CoC is no more?  All he did say was that the hero is now Sheogorath.  The order of when the CoC became Sheogorath isn't even set in stone.  The hero could have become Sheogorath before becoming the CoC just as the Dragonborn could have defeated Miraak before fighting Alduin in TES's nebulous timeline.

Edited by justwannaddl, 03 August 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[Lachdonin]

Well, the fact that Juggalag literally refers to you as Sheogorath, Prince of Madness rather than Duke/Lord of the Shivering Isles is one indication. He also speaks to you with something bordering on respect, which the Daedra only reserve for their peers. Even the Nerevarine, the champion of Azura and vanquisher of not one, but two living gods was treated as little more than a pet. Plus, the process of mantling has already been dissected at length, so i don't really want to go over it again. Sufficed to say, the quest line leading to the confrontation between the PC and Jyggalag chronicles the achievements of Arden Sul and the Mantling of Sheogorath. When you get to Juggalag, the Mantling is over, you just don't get a dramatic transformation like Martin did. 

 

Then you have the relationship between a Daedra and it's plane. It's been indicated in some earlier books, but more extensively covered in Lord of Souls, that a Daedra's domains in Oblivion are nothing like Mundus. They are not self-sustaining, but are rather extensions of the Daedra it's self. When Umbra steals Clavicus Vile's power, his domain has to shrink as a result. The existence of Daedric realms are totally dependent on their connection to their Prince. Because of this, if you aren't already Sheogorath when you defeat Jyggalag, the Shivering Isles would cease to exist, because there is no Sheogorath in that moment.