131 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

Dragonborn win.

first rule: rule of cool.

All three are powerfull over immagination, they all are so powerfull because they need to defeat a powerfull enemyes, if they have needed to deafeat a stronger "bad guy" they become more powerfull, or found a powefull artifact, a powerfull magic and so on never ending, dragonborn win because is the most carismatic and "cool" of all, because there is no artifact no godlike power who can stop you if you are the "hero".

But both the Nerevarine and the CoC were charismatic and the 'hero'. They both fought (eventually, in the case of the CoC) godlike badguys and became stronger. And 'cool' is subjective in the extrem. Personally, i find the CoC to be cooler than the Dragonborn (even if i like Skyrim better) and the Nerevarine to be the coolest of all. An ancient king and champion of a god reborn to save a nation ruled by a corrupt religion from an ancient godlike enemy? Yes please.

Subjectivity does not for a good discussion make.

[bkwrm95]

After reading this whole topic, the words of Dyus, the undying librarian of Jyggalag imprisoned in the Shivering Isles, come to mind.

He begins with:
"You were expecting a book. An ancient tome filled with the secrets that you seek. But instead, you have found me. The last remnant. Individuality is an illusion. The details of my existence are no more important than the history of a stone. However, if you insist: I once served as the keeper of the great library of Jyggalag. The great library was the height of logic and deduction. Contained within its walls were the logical prediction of every action ever taken by any creature, mortal or Daedric. Every birth. Every death. The rise of Tiber Septim. The Numidium. Everything. All predicted with the formulae found within Jyggalag's library."

After you ask for him to remake the Staff of Sheogorath, he says:
"The Staff may allow you to occupy the Throne of Madness, but understand that such a feat has never been attempted. All sources indicate that you will fail. It is a certainty. However, I also predict that this will not stop you from trying."

When you succeed and bring back the required items:
"You have the items. Contrary to all prediction. Once again, you defy the path set before you. However, what comes next is now unclear. If you wish to confront what is to come, I shall create the Staff for you."
"After I shape them into the Staff, you must take it to the seat of power in the Shivering Isles -- the Palace of Sheogorath. There, imbue the Staff with power from the Font of Madness. Soak the staff in the waters of the land, and it will open its full power to you. You have defied the expected and accomplished something that denies all logic. I must contemplate the error in my calculations."

After you do that:
"Hrmph... it seems that I made a miscalculation. Against all odds and all the knowledge that I possess, a new Sheogorath is risen. How I loathe the idea of personal choice. It makes things so... imprecise."

This is a guy who has had an eternity to ponder the entirety of the knowledge of the Prince of Order. He knows EVERYTHING, yet the idea of a hero frustrates him so because heroes are allowed to make their own decisions. They do not follow the set pattern for their life. They can make what they will of their own life. They have unlimited potential, so the idea of comparing them to see which is better seems illogical. Infinity equals infinity.

For further reading: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hero

[blackninja50]

I think bkwrm95 nailed this one perfectly.

[Lachdonin]

I dissagree with that assessment, and with the implications of the quotes in question.

First, heroes are not free from the rigic restrictions of life. In fact, they are bound even moreso. The Dragonborn, for instance, has no choice in his confrontation with Alduin. He is required by the very essance of reality to meet that challenge. That they finally get to make an important decision in the world doesn't make them any less bound by the destiny set out for them. They absolute must make that decision, regardless, and whatever their choice the world will feel it.

They also have very limited potential (though it's greater than the more mundane folk). Once the Scrolls are done with a hero, they dissapear from history. As soon as their purpose is fulfiled, they vanish or die. That's how Destiny works, at least in the TES universe.

As for the quotes in question, you speak to a Priest of Order, an individual whose entire world view is highly structured by cause and effect. By the time the CoC reached him, the CoC was an agent of madness, and thus one who inherently defies a structured analysis. Whats more, the madness which defies structured reason is evidence of the CoC manteling Sheogorath, already ceasing to be the CoC and becomming Madness its self. You're success in defying the structured reality the Priest of Order has nothing to do with the limitless potential of heros (which as i stated earlier is non existant) but rather the fact that madness is impossible to predict, and thus any attempts for the Priest to understand it lead to non-answers.

[bkwrm95]

If heroes have no choice, then why can I make my Dragonborn to be a thief, or a mage, or a warrior, or any combination thereof? The whole Elder Scrolls Universe revolves around making choices. That is what makes the games stand out, the freedom to do whatever you want. (E.g. The Nerevarine could have killed Vivec if he wanted to, thus thoroughly changing the main quest.) Just because the Nerevarine "vanished" to Akavir doesn't mean he stopped being a hero and kicking ass. The Champion "turned into/mantled" Sheogorath, and is apparently still there. The Dragonborn hasn't died yet.

"All sources indicate that you will fail. It is a certainty. However, I also predict that this will not stop you from trying." Dyus knows that the Champion will try, but that the logical conclusion is for the Champion to fail. That has nothing to do with madness vs order.

Also, why was the same forethought and prediction power that was able to predict the outcome of a Dragon Break not able to predict something as mundane as making a staff?

My level 56 Dragonborn hasn't defeated Alduin, and may never get around to it.

[Invisible Man]

My level 56 Dragonborn hasn't defeated Alduin, and may never get around to it.

my current dragonborn didn't get around to it till level 112-113. (i love the uncapper)

[Lachdonin]

Your choices remain irrelivent. Say your CoC never did the main quest, thus never stopping Dagon, thus ensuring the destruction of Mundus. Well, that never happened. That 'Potential', for lack of a better word, never coalessed into reality. Your Dragonborn never fighting Alduin is irrelivent, because it serves as an unreality in the Elder Scrolls Universe. The Nerevarine faced Dagoth Ur. The CoC found Martin and together they defeated Dagon. The Dragonborn WILL face Alduin whether you like it or not. There isn't any choice in the matter, even if your gameplay gives the illusion.

Likewise, a hero doesn't get to decide if the Blackwood Company is destroyed. It happens, whether you (the player) like it or not. Heroes are tools of change, but they are not free agents within the universe, only within the limited game-play representation of it.

"All sources indicate that you will fail. It is a certainty. However, I also predict that this will not stop you from trying." Dyus knows that the Champion will try, but that the logical conclusion is for the Champion to fail. That has nothing to do with madness vs order.

Also, why was the same forethought and prediction power that was able to predict the outcome of a Dragon Break not able to predict something as mundane as making a staff?.

Now, Logic IS order. Madness, by it very definition, defies logic. The Priests predictions are based entirely on logical conclusions, and thus cannot take into account the inherent instability of Madness. By this time, the CoC has already become Sheogorath, and Sheogorath has become the CoC, rendering all the predictive powers of the Priest of Order irrelivent. Again, it is the total inability to predict the outcome of madness which allowed for your success, not some inherent lack of destiny on the part of the Hero. To word that differently, the CoC's capability in recreating the staff was a logical impossibility. But the CoC was not a being of logic, at this point, rendering any attmpts to reason through to predict an outcome totally moot. Without the abilty to reach logical conclusions (because the situation and the individual involved were illogical) the Priest of Order may as well have said you were going to make jelly toast, it would have made as much sense.

And Dragonbreaks are actually very predictable cause-effect events which can be predicted by those who have sufficient knowelge. The Dunmer predicted the Alessian Dragonbreak, the Khajit predicted the Dragonbreak when the Numidium was first activated by Tiber Septim. If you understand magic and the forces of creation, predicting Dragonbreaks is easy. Of course, few mortals understand such to a sufficient degree, so it seems spontaneous and erratic to the teeming masses.

Finally, again, the CoC is no longer around. When you Mantle something, you don't stick around as whatever you became, it replaces you utterly.

[blackninja50]

The CoC did not Mantle or become Sheogorath. Sheogorath died/went sane and the CoC took his regalia, got a grater power and a lesser power that's all. Play the Shivering Isles main quest if you don't believe me.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The CoC did not Mantle or become Sheogorath. Sheogorath died/went sane and the CoC took his regalia, got a grater power and a lesser power that's all. Play the Shivering Isles main quest if you don't believe me.

I suggest you replay the SI MQ again, becuase the CoC most certainly did mantle sheo at the end.

[luzburg]

The CoC did not Mantle or become Sheogorath. Sheogorath died/went sane and the CoC took his regalia, got a grater power and a lesser power that's all. Play the Shivering Isles main quest if you don't believe me.

I suggest you replay the SI MQ again, becuase the CoC most certainly did mantle sheo at the end.

The Skyrim Daedric Quest further proves that he did. Also it proves that he is in essence still the CoC and not a totally distinct character.