33 replies to this topic

[Lachdonin]

With regards to mantling, it's entirely dependant on what kind of character you play. If you go by the Dovahkiin seen in trailers and promotional material, then you can certainly make a strong argument for the Dovahkiin following in Tiber Septim's footsteps. Then again, to mantle Talos you'd probably have to emulate Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus as well and I'm not sure how that would work out. The mantling of Talos is a complicated affair, due to the the fact that Talos is not one person ascended to godhood, but several people combined.

Sajuukkar has actually explaind this the best, IMO. In the game, you are given 3 possible choices. The General (Imperial) is Tiber Septim. The Observer (avoiding it entirely) is Wulfharth, and the Rebel (Stormcloak) is Zurin. By the nature of the 3 convergent timelines, you have a recreation of Talos. Assuming a Dragon Break is in play, of course.

[UrgeNexus]

With regards to mantling, it's entirely dependant on what kind of character you play. If you go by the Dovahkiin seen in trailers and promotional material, then you can certainly make a strong argument for the Dovahkiin following in Tiber Septim's footsteps. Then again, to mantle Talos you'd probably have to emulate Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus as well and I'm not sure how that would work out. The mantling of Talos is a complicated affair, due to the the fact that Talos is not one person ascended to godhood, but several people combined.

Sajuukkar has actually explaind this the best, IMO. In the game, you are given 3 possible choices. The General (Imperial) is Tiber Septim. The Observer (avoiding it entirely) is Wulfharth, and the Rebel (Stormcloak) is Zurin. By the nature of the 3 convergent timelines, you have a recreation of Talos. Assuming a Dragon Break is in play, of course.

But what reason do we have to assume the Dragon has in fact broken? If you have an answer to that I would genuinely be very interested in hearing it.

[Lachdonin]

But what reason do we have to assume the Dragon has in fact broken? If you have an answer to that I would genuinely be very interested in hearing it.

Absolutely none. None what-so-ever. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero. In fact, i personally find the whole Talos Mantle thing to put the Dragonborn in too much of a critical role, nessessitating long term involvement, which makes it unsuited for a TES PC. Still, the explination on how said mantling would work remains the same.

[kradus]

How can the dragonborn be Talos reborn if we still receive his blessings from the shrines? They have to be 2 separate entities no?

[Lachdonin]

How can the dragonborn be Talos reborn if we still receive his blessings from the shrines? They have to be 2 separate entities no?

An individual mantling a god remains a seperate entity until the completion of the process. Martin remained Martin until the moment he became Akatosh. The CoC remained himself/herself until the instant he contronted Jyggalag as Sheogorath, at which point he became the Mad-God. The Dragonborn would remain the Dragonborn until the instant when he became Talos. Because, until that instant, he is still a Mortal, and subject to all the benefits and vulnerabilities associated with that.

[Tidus44]

I never had the impression the Dragonborn is all that powerful.

The Dragonborn is born with the ability to absorb dragon souls and thereby gain a Thu'um or shout. I didn't find that the shouts were all that unique or even powerful. I consider that anyone who puts the time and effort to learn and to practice can learn a shout, such as Ulfric, the Greybeards and even draugr. Being given something that should take time and effort to master has me thinking the Dragonborn is actually weaker than what a Dragonborn should be. There should be at least some effort in becoming a Master of the Voice.

The shouts them self are not all that powerful. So they can knock a NPC down and scare a dragon by giving them a glimpse of mortality. Sort of more convenient than powerful, especially considering the myth of a Thu'um supposedly being able to tear an enemy apart. Sort of disappointing in a way.

Killing a dragon doesn't require a powerful individual either. I have seen two frost trolls kill a blood dragon and a couple of guards and some towns folk kill a frost dragon in Dawnstar. Not exactly powerful individuals. As for Alduin, I look at the assistance the Dragonborn had in the fight and also that he did not absorb Alduin's soul. So is Alduin dead or was he injured and Akatosh took him away for some other purpose at some other time?

I can't think of anything in the game that demonstrates the Dragonborn as powerful. Sure, the Dragonborn is probably brave and has some fighting skills, but nothing that places the Dragonborn above anyone or anything else in the game as "powerful". Honestly, I sort of found that appealing as some powerful, demigod like individual who can take out anyone anywhere would have been really boring and a terrible game experience.

[UrgeNexus]

I never had the impression the Dragonborn is all that powerful.

The Dragonborn is born with the ability to absorb dragon souls and thereby gain a Thu'um or shout. I didn't find that the shouts were all that unique or even powerful. I consider that anyone who puts the time and effort to learn and to practice can learn a shout, such as Ulfric, the Greybeards and even draugr. Being given something that should take time and effort to master has me thinking the Dragonborn is actually weaker than what a Dragonborn should be. There should be at least some effort in becoming a Master of the Voice.

The shouts them self are not all that powerful. So they can knock a NPC down and scare a dragon by giving them a glimpse of mortality. Sort of more convenient than powerful, especially considering the myth of a Thu'um supposedly being able to tear an enemy apart. Sort of disappointing in a way.

Killing a dragon doesn't require a powerful individual either. I have seen two frost trolls kill a blood dragon and a couple of guards and some towns folk kill a frost dragon in Dawnstar. Not exactly powerful individuals. As for Alduin, I look at the assistance the Dragonborn had in the fight and also that he did not absorb Alduin's soul. So is Alduin dead or was he injured and Akatosh took him away for some other purpose at some other time?

I can't think of anything in the game that demonstrates the Dragonborn as powerful. Sure, the Dragonborn is probably brave and has some fighting skills, but nothing that places the Dragonborn above anyone or anything else in the game as "powerful". Honestly, I sort of found that appealing as some powerful, demigod like individual who can take out anyone anywhere would have been really boring and a terrible game experience.

Gameplay and Lore are not the same thing, at least not in my book. In Lore, a Dragon is the kind of thing that can devastate an army in moments, obviously they can't be that strong in the game, or you would never be able to defeat them. As they are they're generally too easy to kill, which is a pretty massive inconsistensy with how they've been described in the Lore. Even if you disregard that, a dragon isn't really dead until the Dovahkiin eats it's soul. Even if some town guards could kill a dragon attacking their city, so what? Alduin could swoop on in and ressurect that Dragon whenever he wanted to, or just kill everyone given that he is literally unstoppable unless a demigod travels into the realm of an actual God and kills him there.

[Tidus44]

Gameplay and Lore are not the same thing, at least not in my book. In Lore, a Dragon is the kind of thing that can devastate an army in moments, obviously they can't be that strong in the game, or you would never be able to defeat them. As they are they're generally too easy to kill, which is a pretty massive inconsistensy with how they've been described in the Lore. Even if you disregard that, a dragon isn't really dead until the Dovahkiin eats it's soul. Even if some town guards could kill a dragon attacking their city, so what? Alduin could swoop on in and ressurect that Dragon whenever he wanted to, or just kill everyone given that he is literally unstoppable unless a demigod travels into the realm of an actual God and kills him there.

Yes, there is a difference between the actual game and whatever fantasy lore you believe. However, your wishful thoughts about lore are just your imaginative flights of fantasy and pretty much meaningless. If it does not exist in the game, then it doesn't exist - at least in my book.

To me, lore (and especially from some web site) is a crutch for the mindless and those incapable of reasoning. Why anyone would believe something that is formulated by someone's comment on another's thoughts regarding some persons assumption about a speculation made on some other persons idea on an individual's thoughts providing a fantasy explanation for some game aspect is beyond me - but please feel free to believe such ilk, just don't insist I must believe it too.

While some may choose to believe information born from fantasy, I prefer to formulate my own thoughts from information that actually exists within the game.

There is no powerful dragon just over the horizon killing an entire army in one fiery (or frosty) breath that I cannot see.

Dragons are easily defeated by anyone with some fighting skills and are not all that powerful.

Alduin is not unstoppable and all it took was an ordinary mortal, assisted by immortals, to defeat him.

While these may not suit your fantasies about the game, I am not insisting you must accept them. So, please, feel free to wallow in whatever imaginative fantasy you want, but don't tell me I must accept your fantasy as my thoughts of the game.

[UrgeNexus]

Gameplay and Lore are not the same thing, at least not in my book. In Lore, a Dragon is the kind of thing that can devastate an army in moments, obviously they can't be that strong in the game, or you would never be able to defeat them. As they are they're generally too easy to kill, which is a pretty massive inconsistensy with how they've been described in the Lore. Even if you disregard that, a dragon isn't really dead until the Dovahkiin eats it's soul. Even if some town guards could kill a dragon attacking their city, so what? Alduin could swoop on in and ressurect that Dragon whenever he wanted to, or just kill everyone given that he is literally unstoppable unless a demigod travels into the realm of an actual God and kills him there.

Yes, there is a difference between the actual game and whatever fantasy lore you believe. However, your wishful thoughts about lore are just your imaginative flights of fantasy and pretty much meaningless. If it does not exist in the game, then it doesn't exist - at least in my book.

To me, lore (and especially from some web site) is a crutch for the mindless and those incapable of reasoning. Why anyone would believe something that is formulated by someone's comment on another's thoughts regarding some persons assumption about a speculation made on some other persons idea on an individual's thoughts providing a fantasy explanation for some game aspect is beyond me - but please feel free to believe such ilk, just don't insist I must believe it too.

While some may choose to believe information born from fantasy, I prefer to formulate my own thoughts from information that actually exists within the game.

There is no powerful dragon just over the horizon killing an entire army in one fiery (or frosty) breath that I cannot see.

Dragons are easily defeated by anyone with some fighting skills and are not all that powerful.

Alduin is not unstoppable and all it took was an ordinary mortal, assisted by immortals, to defeat him.

While these may not suit your fantasies about the game, I am not insisting you must accept them. So, please, feel free to wallow in whatever imaginative fantasy you want, but don't tell me I must accept your fantasy as my thoughts of the game.

I don't remember forcing you to accept anything. I am also not simply pulling information out of my ass, but basing it on in-game texts and drawing conjecture based on how NPC's talk about Dragons. Your average Guard isn't saying "I can't wait for a Dragon to fly in so I can kick it's scaly ass!", he's saying "If a Dragon comes along, we'll all probably die."

If you want to go purely by gameplay that's fine, I can't and won't force you to see things my way. Personally though I believe ignoring anything not strictly presented in game is boring and makes for an ultimately pointless discussion, which defeats the purpose of having a thread about it in the first place. By your reasoning Whiterun, often said to be the most important trading center of a nation, is home to about ten to fifteen people. Also the entire nation of Skyrim is so small you could walk from one end to the other in a day or two. This may be how it is presented through gameplay, but it makes no logical sense.

As for you argument that Lore is a crutch for idiots (I am paraphrasing of course) makes no sense to me whatsoever. Lore makes the world feel more real, it makes it more interesting, it provides depth. If you're not interested in that then fine, though I'm not sure why you would post in a thread that has so far been entirely about Lore.

[kradus]

I believe the weak dragons and weak thuum was meant to keep the game ballanced at low level difficulties. Because dragons getting killed by a giant or a few random npc's doesn't make sence, and shouts like 'fire breath' that are meant to deal damage are completely pointless compared to some of the spells in the game.
This is where mods come in handy.

Edited by kradus, 07 February 2013 - 06:11 PM.