33 replies to this topic

[Tidus44]

I don't remember forcing you to accept anything. I am also not simply pulling information out of my ass, but basing it on in-game texts and drawing conjecture based on how NPC's talk about Dragons. Your average Guard isn't saying "I can't wait for a Dragon to fly in so I can kick it's scaly ass!", he's saying "If a Dragon comes along, we'll all probably die."

If you want to go purely by gameplay that's fine, I can't and won't force you to see things my way. Personally though I believe ignoring anything not strictly presented in game is boring and makes for an ultimately pointless discussion, which defeats the purpose of having a thread about it in the first place. By your reasoning Whiterun, often said to be the most important trading center of a nation, is home to about ten to fifteen people. Also the entire nation of Skyrim is so small you could walk from one end to the other in a day or two. This may be how it is presented through gameplay, but it makes no logical sense.

As for you argument that Lore is a crutch for idiots (I am paraphrasing of course) makes no sense to me whatsoever. Lore makes the world feel more real, it makes it more interesting, it provides depth. If you're not interested in that then fine, though I'm not sure why you would post in a thread that has so far been entirely about Lore.

Since you mentioned it, I'm interested in exactly where are you pulling your lore from, because it certainly doesn't appear to be from the game.
I ask because while I appreciate that the average noncombat NPC might voice a bit of concern over a dragon attack, I have not heard one guard say they are afraid of dying should a dragon attack occur. Guards have said they are afraid of werewolves and vampires, but not dragons. In fact, in regards to dragons the guards complain that their cousin is out fighting dragons and they are stuck on guard duty and who say "Fear not. Come dragon or giant, we'll be ready." and even "They say Helgen got hit by a dragon. One of those horrors comes here, we'll be ready."
For someone who states they base their facts on in-game texts and conjecture on what NPCs talk about regarding dragons, I guess only what one wants to use to support their fantasy lore beliefs are applicable and all other conversations are just meaningless babble and should be ignored.
I would suggest that the guards conversations are fairly indicative that dragons are not the overwhelmingly powerful beasts you fantasize.

Myth, rumor and legend are not evidence or fact, nor is your fantasy of what is logical or not. One can conjecture and fantasize all they want, but it isn't evidence or proof, nor does it support an opinion. The thread is not about how powerful you feel dragons are or your fantasies and imagination about Skyrim or the lore you believe.
The thread asked how powerful one feels the Dragonborn to be. I provided my opinion and supported it with what is evident within the game and real lore that is supported - not fantasized or myth or selected lore from unknown sources. Dishonest and selective reasoning is what makes discussion pointless, not ignoring made up fantasy and unsupported opinion about lore or what you think is logical or not.

If you want to engage in a fantasy fest with all types of conjecture and imagination, please feel free to do so. I won't tell you that your opinion is flawed because of some imagined lore, so don't tell me my opinion is flawed because it doesn't conform to your fantasy.

[kradus]

Tidus those statements could simply be guard bravado or an atempt to inspire confidence. In an historical sence back when men didn't use the voice, the dragons had little trouble dominating them whenever they rebelled. If dragons where supposed to be as weak as they are in-game, humanity would have won the dragon wars quite easely.
Jon Battle-born in whiterun for example says that if a dragon comes by, the city will go up like tinder, when you enter the keep in riften, you hear the Jarl making plans for retreat should the city fall pray to a dragon attack, the kajiit comment on what are they supposed to do if a dragon attacks, despite being quite good at killing them, and there are many such remarks that suggest the danger dragons are supposed to pose.
A guard that says "come dragon or giant we'll be ready" may also say "a dragon has attacked whiterun, how could mere men bring down such a beast". So those boastfull comments you mentioned are a minority.

Edited by kradus, 07 February 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Tidus44]

Tidus those statements could simply be guard bravado or an atempt to inspire confidence. In an historical sence back when men didn't use the voice, the dragons had little trouble dominating them whenever they rebelled. If dragons where supposed to be as weak as they are in-game, humanity would have won the dragon wars quite easely.
Jon Battle-born in whiterun for example says that if a dragon comes by, the city will go up like tinder, when you enter the keep in riften, you hear the Jarl making plans for retreat should the city fall pray to a dragon attack, the kajiit comment on what are they supposed to do if a dragon attacks, despite being quite good at killing them, and there are many such remarks that suggest the danger dragons are supposed to pose.
A guard that says "come dragon or giant we'll be ready" may also say "a dragon has attacked whiterun, how could mere men bring down such a beast". So those boastfull comments you mentioned are a minority.

Again, I see someone taking a small portion of something that supports their fantasy and ignoring everything else that occurs in the game.

Yes, the guards could be boasting to boost their confidence, but when push came to shove I didn't see any guards running away, they stood and fought and actually defeated a dragon. So were they boasting or stating what they were prepared to do and actually did? Why would anyone attack a foe they knew was unbeatable?
As for minority, cite the reference that identifies guards say one thing more or less than others because such dialogue is random in the game and nowhere in any guards dialogue is there anything about being afraid of dragons. "By the gods, it's true, isn't it? A dragon has attacked Whiterun. How could mere men bring down such a beast?" is a question after the dragon is defeated at the Western Watchtower. The answer to the question, by going and fighting one because obviously that strategy works.

When the PC reads the elder scroll at the time warp during the game to learn how to defeat Alduin and observes the 3 Nords defeat a dragon and speak of bloodying their blade 3 times that day on other dragons, these hugely powerful dragons that can kill an army and who have little trouble dominating men were never defeated by men? The Blades in years after who destroyed the remaining dragons is false as well because dragons cannot be defeated by men?

Jon Battle-Born isn't wrong, unless the dragon is a Frost Dragon and then how would it burn down the town? The Jarl of Riften sees a town build of wood and calls for a retreat as a strategy to save lives. I don't see that as a bad plan nor is it a statement of dragons being unbeatable.
These statements don't mean dragons are unbeatable, just that dragons are dangerous when they attack - which is not something I have denied. What I do deny is that dragons are the all powerful beasts that some seem to think they are.

All powerful, unbeatable dragons do not exist. They are only a figment of someone's imagination and a product of myth and legend amongst the Nords.
Just because some NPC says one thing or another about dragons doesn't make it true or even lore. What is fact and real lore is what happens in the game. If you choose to fantasize and imagine something else, then please do so, just do not waste your time trying and convince me that my lore is flawed and your fantasy is fact.

[kradus]

Again, I see someone taking a small portion of something that supports their fantasy and ignoring everything else that occurs in the game.

This

I simply didn't quote every opinion in the game about what dragons are capable of, but you're latched on to a couple of guard statements.
The fact that men couldn't win the dragon wars before learning how to use the voice is litteraly carved in stone, it's an important part of the lore. Of course a group of prepared warriors can beat a single dragon, the blades themselfs where a whole order of dragonslayers hunting isolated dragons, but this doesn't mean 5 or 6 guards should be able to kill a dragon on their own without a single loss. You can litteraly just watch them do all the fighting on the western watchtower, then take the dragon soul. If dragons where any harder, kidies would cry and bethesda would lose a large portion of their playerbase. And that's the reason a couple of trolls can kill a giant flying monster on their own.

[Tidus44]

Again, I see someone taking a small portion of something that supports their fantasy and ignoring everything else that occurs in the game.

This

I simply didn't quote every opinion in the game about what dragons are capable of, but you're latched on to a couple of guard statements.
The fact that men couldn't win the dragon wars before learning how to use the voice is litteraly carved in stone, it's an important part of the lore. Of course a group of prepared warriors can beat a single dragon, the blades themselfs where a whole order of dragonslayers hunting isolated dragons, but this doesn't mean 5 or 6 guards should be able to kill a dragon on their own without a single loss. You can litteraly just watch them do all the fighting on the western watchtower, then take the dragon soul. If dragons where any harder, kidies would cry and bethesda would lose a large portion of their playerbase. And that's the reason a couple of trolls can kill a giant flying monster on their own.

Well, maybe you should quote every single opinion in the game about what dragons are capable of as I have not latched onto any guard statements and have only responded to statements quoted as proof dragons are all powerful beasts that men cannot defeat. I seem to recall that it was you who posted; "A guard that says "come dragon or giant we'll be ready" may also say "a dragon has attacked whiterun, how could mere men bring down such a beast". not me. If you don't like me responding to the guard quotes you post to support your opinion, then don't quote guard statements. Pretty simple.

If men could not defeat dragons before using the voice is carved in stone and an important piece of lore - cite the reference. Or perhaps you should read The Dragon War by Torhal Bjorik as it says "magics", not the voice, was used in the Dragon War to defeat the dragons. While the "magics" could have been the voice, that isn't what it says and thus speculating the voice was the "magics" used is just that - speculation, not fact.

Again, I have no problem with your fantasy, your imagination or even your excuses about why dragons can be defeated in the game. I have not once stated that your fantasies are invalid or incorrect interpretations that suit your needs in playing the game. The simple fact is that in the game dragons can and are defeated by mortal men without using anything but ordinary weapons. Until you can produce fact that this cannot and does not happen in the game, than all you are trying to do is convince me that your imaginative fantasies are fact, and I'm not convinced by fantasy or imagination, show me the evidence.

[kradus]

I seem to recall that it was you who posted; "A guard that says "come dragon or giant we'll be ready" may also say "a dragon has attacked whiterun, how could mere men bring down such a beast". not me. If you don't like me responding to the guard quotes you post to support your opinion, then don't quote guard statements. Pretty simple.

"... In fact, in regards to dragons the guards complain that their cousin is out fighting dragons and they are stuck on guard duty and who say "Fear not. Come dragon or giant, we'll be ready." and even "They say Helgen got hit by a dragon. One of those horrors comes here, we'll be ready."...

If men could not defeat dragons before using the voice is carved in stone and an important piece of lore - cite the reference. Or perhaps you should read The Dragon War by Torhal Bjorik as it says "magics", not the voice, was used in the Dragon War to defeat the dragons. While the "magics" could have been the voice, that isn't what it says and thus speculating the voice was the "magics" used is just that - speculation, not fact.

http://elderscrolls....i/High_Hrothgar

■Emblem II - Men were born and spread over the face of Mundus; The Dragons presided over the crawling masses; Men were weak then, and had no Voice
■Emblem III - The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old Times; Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices; But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts
■Emblem IV - Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man; Together they taught Men to use the Voice; Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue
■Emblem V - Man prevailed, shouting Alduin out of the world; Proving for all that their Voice too was strong; Although their sacrifices were many-fold
■Emblem VI - With roaring Tongues, the Sky-Children conquer; Founding the First Empire with Sword and Voice; Whilst the Dragons withdrew from this World

Again, I have no problem with your fantasy, your imagination or even your excuses about why dragons can be defeated in the game. I have not once stated that your fantasies are invalid or incorrect interpretations that suit your needs in playing the game. The simple fact is that in the game dragons can and are defeated by mortal men without using anything but ordinary weapons. Until you can produce fact that this cannot and does not happen in the game, than all you are trying to do is convince me that your imaginative fantasies are fact, and I'm not convinced by fantasy or imagination, show me the evidence.

You can see for yourself that the gameplay doesn't match the lore, this is not fantasy or imagination, but a conclusion drawn by observing the game. An example of many: when the nord heroes fought Alduin in the throat of the world, they said they couldn't beat him, yet when you meet him in sovngarde, you just need to sit back and enjoy the spectacle as they butcher him for you, similarly to what happens in the western watchtower.
The only problem here is that you insist in believing that gameplay = lore, despite the contradictions.

[Tidus44]

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/High_Hrothgar

■Emblem II - Men were born and spread over the face of Mundus; The Dragons presided over the crawling masses; Men were weak then, and had no Voice
■Emblem III - The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old Times; Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices; But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts
■Emblem IV - Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man; Together they taught Men to use the Voice; Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue
■Emblem V - Man prevailed, shouting Alduin out of the world; Proving for all that their Voice too was strong; Although their sacrifices were many-fold
■Emblem VI - With roaring Tongues, the Sky-Children conquer; Founding the First Empire with Sword and Voice; Whilst the Dragons withdrew from this World

You can see for yourself that the gameplay doesn't match the lore, this is not fantasy or imagination, but a conclusion drawn by observing the game. An example of many: when the nord heroes fought Alduin in the throat of the world, they said they couldn't beat him, yet when you meet him in sovngarde, you just need to sit back and enjoy the spectacle as they butcher him for you, similarly to what happens in the western watchtower.
The only problem here is that you insist in believing that gameplay = lore, despite the contradictions.

Hallelujah! You are not using fantasy and imagination, but lo and behold you actually responded with a real answer. I am truly amazed.

My suggestion though, read the whole thread next time before making accusations as it is very dishonest to post partial information.
While I did post what you quote me on, it was in response to someone posting;
Your average Guard isn't saying "I can't wait for a Dragon to fly in so I can kick it's scaly ass!", he's saying "If a Dragon comes along, we'll all probably die."
Again, it was my response to what someone quoted as "proof", not my "latching onto" guard quotes as you accuse me of.

Ah yes, the emblems on the 7000 steps (which are actually only 700+ steps, so much for lore and myth) do say "voice".

But this is contradicted elsewhere so which lore is right and which is wrong?

I do note that; Emblem V is in conflict because when your PC reads the elder scroll at the time warp, one sees Alduin is not shouted out of the world, but is ejected into the future by the elder scroll read by Felldir the Old.
If this error was made in the emblems, then what other errors are there in the emblems?
Could it be the emblems are just the myth and legend passed on by word of mouth amongst the Nords over the thousand years since the dragon war?

I saw a long time ago in another TES game that the lore doesn't match the game play and thus I am not one of the self appointed masters of lore who sit in judgement on how others view or play the game and have the audacity to tell others their opinion is invalid and then spout a bunch of fantasy to support the imaginations.
There are contradictions all over the place. What I choose to believe is not invalidated by what you believe. You are free to believe the emblems are "fact" and accept them as lore. I do not. I choose to believe they are myth and legend that was passed by word of mouth over thousands of years by the Nords and finally written down as a series of shrines. I believe that Torhal Bjorik's historical text is the accurate recording of fact, not the emblems.

If you don't like my beliefs or my conclusions, then feel free to believe or conclude what you want. There is no proof you are right and I have no interest in convincing you of anything. I have only posted what I have observed and made up my mind about in the game, not what is wrong with other's beliefs. If it makes you feel better to suggest that my belief that game play equals lore and that is a problem, then feel free to have that opinion as well. The only real problem here is your insistence that I must believe your lore.

[kradus]

So basicaly the info is there, you chose not to believe it.

btw, Feldir did say "We shout you out!" when he banished Alduin.

Edited by kradus, 08 February 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[Tidus44]

So basicaly the info is there, you chose not to believe it.

btw, Feldir did say "We shout you out!" when he banished Alduin.

Here, I'll fix it so its the the correct statement (and fix your spelling); "So basically the info is there, you choose not to believe my interpretation of it and choose to make your own interpretation because there is always more than one interpretation in a TES game."

And while did Felldir say that, that's not what happened - so your point is only evidence of what he said, not what he did.

[Lachdonin]

One has to assume there is a degree of propiganda in any myth. The Nords at the time of writing the myth of Alduin revered the power of The Voice, so they would have played up its signifigance. It is possible that it was the interaction between the Thu'um and the Scroll which caused Alduin to be cast adrift, in which case they would have indeed 'shouted' him from the world, but that is purely speculation.

We do know, however, the Dragons are supposed to be far more powerful than they appear in-game. The dragon Tiber Septim allied with during his campaigns was capable of defeating entire armies single handedly, and was only defeated by a Sword Saint (efectivly a demi-god). The Annals of the Dragonguard indicades that even weaker Dragons are regularly capable of laying waste to entire villages without a problem, and working together can threaten larger cities.

And, on top of all this, we know Alduin is the strongest of them all. Because of that fact, we can extrapolate that the Dragonborn, while maybe lacking some of the sustainability (a Dragon's fire breath would be more effective against an army than the Dragonborns) the Dragonborn's ability to regularly win-out against Dragons, and prove and equal to Alduin, is a respectable representation of his relative strength.